Anyone feel that we are a bit too squishy??

Rogue
I'm loving my rogue so far in WOD, but there are a few things that I just don't really understand. I feel like rogue's take a crap ton of dmg from pretty much anyone. Tons of classes can out dps us with their eyes closed and can take boat loads of dmg and use insane self-heals. I can get caught in a stun and literally die with half the stun left.. The numbers I see people hitting on me makes me wonder if rogues are kinda getting the !@#$ty end of the stick here.. I'm not asking for any outrageous changes. All I would like to see is a boost to survivability.

PS. I'm kind of awestruck that they nerfed our kidney shot but are still letting druids, dk's and hunters run around like gods in this game. I swear 80% of the population of WOW will be playing either a druid, hunter or DK if things don't change.
For solo play yes. We die easily due to no passive damage reduction and recup is underwhelming.

With healers though a Rogue that staggers defensive cooldowns correctly and knows when to feint is just about the hardest class to kill. A good Rogue isn't a viable kill target for most 3s comps.

Since the game isn't balances around 1 v 1 we are fine.
So the solution is to always have a healer?? i'm sorry but that's very sad.
take heart that blizzard is slowly fixing other classes self healing(see dks incoming nerf in 6.1)
01/10/2015 07:31 AMPosted by Stabadabado
So the solution is to always have a healer?? i'm sorry but that's very sad.


No, it's not sad. Rogues can pick and choose their fights, and if you're naive/dumb enough to go toe to toe with a DK then that's your fault.

We can manage fine by ourselves.

Edit: Also spooby is right. Not sure why anybody would down-vote that.
PvE wise, pull less. Avoid the giant "Don't Hurt Me Bro, I'm Chargin'" moves mobs have nowadays.

PvPwise, choose your fights more carefully, especially against the Flavors of the Month. I'm not saying assassinate the low health priest because he's the only you can kill, but try and gank a Druid or DK, and it might go bad.

The solution is to adapt really.
01/10/2015 07:31 AMPosted by Stabadabado
So the solution is to always have a healer?? i'm sorry but that's very sad.


That should be a lot of dps classes though.
There's some half truths here.

Classes like DK's, Ret's, and ferals will almost certainly kill you, and quickly, in 1v1 situations. Warriors you can go cd for cd so it's a much more fair fight. We are highly susceptible to quick swaps, particularly when we don't have a trinket up. Because while we are a hard target to kill with our cd's up, we can be drained or deprived of them easily enough and, without them, we are the easiest kill. I would still say that ret's, dk's, and ferals are harder to kill, with healers, than we are. If you play with one of those it's likely that your healer is the kill target and they will be looking to swap to the rogue for the pressure.

Also the healer thing is more correct than most give it credit for. Almost all other classes have some form of passive self healing, rogues don't. If you are pulled from your healer you are in a world of hurt.

Choosing your fights sounds good, but it's really only applicable in bg's and who cares about bashing bads in bg's? In rbg's and arenas the fights will choose you and you need to be ready.
i feel a bit too tanky honestly but it makes up for the lower deeps.
01/10/2015 10:00 AMPosted by Crimsonsky
I would still say that ret's, dk's, and ferals are harder to kill,


wrong. Feral is the easiest class to kill in the game, period - only thing as easy is a warrior but that depends on if u are a caster or not.

Rogue actually has a ton of defensives - can turtle at 30% dr indefinitely, can run-->restealth, can soak both physical (evasion) and magic (cloak) on decently short cds, has a lot of control toolkit to self-peel, and can straight-up vanish.

01/10/2015 01:26 PMPosted by Saifu
i feel a bit too tanky honestly but it makes up for the lower deeps.


I agree 100%. I feel like as long as I have a pillar and a non-cc'd healer and my trinket I am pretty much unkillable - vastly different than mop, defensively. On the feral when my trinket is down I am pretty much one cc from death - the rogue is a lot better at buying the healer time. Of course we have a lot less effective damage relative to health pools from MOP, like Saifu said.
01/10/2015 05:57 AMPosted by Spoobypls
For solo play yes. We die easily due to no passive damage reduction and recup is underwhelming.

With healers though a Rogue that staggers defensive cooldowns correctly and knows when to feint is just about the hardest class to kill. A good Rogue isn't a viable kill target for most 3s comps.

Since the game isn't balances around 1 v 1 we are fine.


But that's the problem, imo. There are things bout Rogue (like this survivability topic) that are great in 3v3 arena, but horrible in world pvp, BG's, and 2v2 arena.

I really hate that this game is exclusively balanced around 3v3, as though that is the end-all be-all experience for the majority of players. Ever sense the advent of arenas in TBC pvp balance has seen such wild shifts with each season/xpac.

I'm really tired of it. And there shouldn't even be the excuse of "well they are balanced in 3v3, so it's okay for them to suck ing BG's and world PvP" because hunters, paladins, warriors, and DK's are all classic examples of classes that have been able to perform on par or even top tier in all of the previously listed PvP situations. Why should classes like Rogue or Monk (RIP this xpac WW) be relegated to the 3v3 arena to see acceptable performance?
01/10/2015 01:38 PMPosted by Kêvx
01/10/2015 10:00 AMPosted by Crimsonsky
I would still say that ret's, dk's, and ferals are harder to kill,


wrong. Feral is the easiest class to kill in the game, period - only thing as easy is a warrior but that depends on if u are a caster or not.
Lol.

Rogue actually has a ton of defensives - can turtle at 30% dr indefinitely, can run-->restealth, can soak both physical (evasion) and magic (cloak) on decently short cds, has a lot of control toolkit to self-peel, and can straight-up vanish.
All of these abilities minus feint are easily circumvented by abilities with shorter cooldowns- abilities that ferals have access to, mind you. You can't say that about ANYONE else's defenses.
01/10/2015 01:26 PMPosted by Saifu
i feel a bit too tanky honestly but it makes up for the lower deeps.


I agree 100%. I feel like as long as I have a pillar and a non-cc'd healer and my trinket I am pretty much unkillable - vastly different than mop, defensively. On the feral when my trinket is down I am pretty much one cc from death - the rogue is a lot better at buying the healer time. Of course we have a lot less effective damage relative to health pools from MOP, like Saifu said.

Ah, nevermind. You agree with Saifu, you're just as much troll as he is.
I will come to the forward and state I am able to face tank frost DK's with CR up. Outside of that we are a actually balanced rathere well.

Other classes are either too soft, or durable; see DK.
01/10/2015 10:00 AMPosted by Crimsonsky
I would still say that ret's, dk's, and ferals are harder to kill,


wrong. Feral is the easiest class to kill in the game, period - only thing as easy is a warrior but that depends on if u are a caster or not.

Rogue actually has a ton of defensives - can turtle at 30% dr indefinitely, can run-->restealth, can soak both physical (evasion) and magic (cloak) on decently short cds, has a lot of control toolkit to self-peel, and can straight-up vanish.

01/10/2015 01:26 PMPosted by Saifu
i feel a bit too tanky honestly but it makes up for the lower deeps.


I agree 100%. I feel like as long as I have a pillar and a non-cc'd healer and my trinket I am pretty much unkillable - vastly different than mop, defensively. On the feral when my trinket is down I am pretty much one cc from death - the rogue is a lot better at buying the healer time. Of course we have a lot less effective damage relative to health pools from MOP, like Saifu said.


If the Feral doesn't know how to bleed-kite or cast Healing Touch, I suppose.
Nah, with CDs up a Rogue is basically unkillable even without a healer. Without CDs we do get hit a bit hard but such is the nature of the class. (And at least we have Elusiveness now!) Getting more passives would like mean giving up some active defensives as well as possible nerfs to stuns.
01/10/2015 03:36 PMPosted by Khlause
I will come to the forward and state I am able to face tank frost DK's with CR up. Outside of that we are a actually balanced rathere well.

Other classes are either too soft, or durable; see DK.


You may "tank" a dk, for a limited time, you will not win versus that DK even if he is less skilled than you are. So long as he has chosen a spec and has picked his talents and glyphs you will lose. That's the difference here, you can tank him for a short period of time, he can tank you indefinitely.

Also I have nothing but laughter at the notion that druids, the most slippery class in the game, are easier to kill than rogues, but saying that they are the easiest to kill in the game is nothing short of ridiculous.

I find the term unkillable to be a bit of hyperbole. Can the rogue run away? Yes, pretty good at that actually. Does that classify as being unkillable? I guess. But he can't heal himself, so whatever damage you did will stay, minus out of combat regen and whatever cp he can use on recup. So yes, if the rogue can run away then he is unkillable, he also can't kill anyone else in this "unkillable" state. In combat, a rogue is nothing but killable.
I actually think they should nerf our defensive for better offence. I think backstab and ambush should cost more energy but do a lot more damage. I feel like a warrior that can stealth right now, rogues can be out of stealth and soak a lot of damage right now. I think we should be more squishy but really punish people who don't use their trinket or defensive's properly.

Combat Readiness
Feint
Evasion
Gouge
Kidney
S Dance Cheapshot
S Dance Garrote
Blind
Smoke

We have so much utility and defense, I would rather they take Combat Readiness away and Feint, change the 4p bonus, give us Utility and Offence, not so much Defense. Right now rogues can open on anyone and easily take %50 or more of their life just in the opener, but after your opener your a warrior that is soaking damage with Feint, Combat Readiness, Evasion with Recup up picking away at your enemy with SnD & Rupture (if your Sub) until Kidney is off DR and you have energy to go for a shadowdance burst or what have you.

I would rather be punished by wasting our CDs, rogues should be like mages were for the longest time, that is if you suck you suck, their is no in between. You do it right or you don't at all. I miss dueling in MoP on my fire mage, a ret paladin waste their trinket and you survive their bubble they are going to get Globaled or one shotted.

Example of what Fire Mages use to be like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb3s6IroOOQ Your wanting to see @3:13.

But with all that said I do think rogues are in a decent to good spot in WoD right now, I love playing subtlety, its fast paced, has a good amount of buttons and skill/awareness required to keep me challenged and wanting to push myself.
01/10/2015 08:28 AMPosted by Ryck
take heart that blizzard is slowly fixing other classes self healing(see dks incoming nerf in 6.1)


Can you link what you are talking about? I didn't see any nerf to self healing. I see a lot of tool tip fixes that's about it. Are you referring to % heals fix in the latest patch?
Rogues CAN take alot of damage, but like many of our abilities you need to time their uses and manage your cooldowns.

First off, if your doing any type of pvp you had better have the talent elusivness, and be constantly spamming it. 30% reduction in damage is great, and if your really getting pounded, if you pop cloak of shadows (assuming u have the glyph that reduces damage) thats an additional 40% damage reduction for a total of a 70% damage reduction!

In addition make sure you get combat readiness! It gives a 50% reduction in damage received, and guess what... you can stack it with elusiveness to give you an effective 80% rediction in damage!

Make sure you save your defensive cooldowns! If your taking a beating, and your healer is stunned in arena, vanish!, if your up against a rogue and say a warrior(just making things up) open up on the warrior, pop combat readiness and when the rogue trys to stunlock you immediately after you unstealth, your going to be able to eat all his damage and make him waste his kidney shot.

You can even use your stuns not offensively, but defensivly. don't be afraid to shiv an opponet with crippling, and then gouge em so you can effectively sprint away.
Rogues are an opportunistic class in their nature. The longer they're in combat, the worse off they are. They don't survive long enough in combat to tank damage, and they're unable to solo targets that's are tanky themselves. As a rogue, it's all about picking and choosing the right moments to use the appropriate CDs. It can be annoying, but I absolutely love the insane control that they have. I think having the wide range of defensives we sport is more than good enough (for melee and casters), and recuperate is pretty clutch if you play subtlety. The only thing I think is lacking slightly is damage...a bit more would make me feel less like a total support class. While Subtlety is actually scaling really well at the moment, shadow dance still isn't very scary -_-

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