RIP Guardians - death by low representation

Druid
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bears fall into a gray area...
our mastery "could" be good..but its 100% passive. it can be great or sueless currently.

GoE is fail(is any fight just phys dmg?) magic dmg eats he **** out of us.

i dont ever have issue with rage, but feels like blizz wants us to do more than other classes, and benefit less.
im all for active migitation, but many fights are not in favor of what we get(TaC mainly)
i have done fighs where other classes have dodged more stuff than bears...which is a guardians thing<.<

also on a pve(non raid/dungeon):
can new vengence(4get what its called now) give a better benefit in open world? have harder time with single elite than i do 2 or 3 of em :l

What you really want to hear me say is that right this second, with all specs and encounters currently the way they are, and all other things (including raid makeup) being equal, would you bring a Guardian? The answer is no, if you happened to live in that magical fairytale land, you wouldn't. You would actually bring the optimal set of tanks for every single boss encounter, depending on the day of the week and who happens to land where after every hotfix.

The point is, almost nobody lives in such a magic land. So discussions about it aren't worth having.


Yes Arielle, as a matter of fact I want to hear you say that. And I want you to repeat it as long as it is brought up, could mention even if you have addressed the situation with other bear like minded peeps like Reesi for example and the situation was brought up to the eyes of those that can actually generate a change.
Because something that I have noticed is that many do not give enough credit to those that are usually branded as simple complainers and whinny people because someone before them (may be a terrible player or may not) started the discussion. From my point of view, they are right about something, do they provide possible solutions? While it would be nice, its not needed. Specially in a community where we already have many people like yourself throwing numbers and ideas. I cant speak for other classes, but I have always loved how chill and helpful Feral community is.

As for the magical world you mention, I disagree entirely. Sure, if it were for a raid leader he would want whichever flavor of the month class in his group. But thing is, Bears have had these issues (the ones I mentioned) since they were created and have stayed even when they have done reworks in other other tanks. Raid groups that have been rolling with a Warrior or Paladin have not encountered any issue with going with that composition or any other tank for that matter...What I'm trying to say is that, they have been far more solid tanks through expansions than we have been.

Like the post before this one says, it seems like Blizz wants us to do many things but the benefit is very little.
01/19/2015 09:40 PMPosted by Sopa

What you really want to hear me say is that right this second, with all specs and encounters currently the way they are, and all other things (including raid makeup) being equal, would you bring a Guardian? The answer is no, if you happened to live in that magical fairytale land, you wouldn't. You would actually bring the optimal set of tanks for every single boss encounter, depending on the day of the week and who happens to land where after every hotfix.

The point is, almost nobody lives in such a magic land. So discussions about it aren't worth having.


Yes Arielle, as a matter of fact I want to hear you say that. And I want you to repeat it as long as it is brought up, could mention even if you have addressed the situation with other bear like minded peeps like Reesi for example and the situation was brought up to the eyes of those that can actually generate a change.
Because something that I have noticed is that many do not give enough credit to those that are usually branded as simple complainers and whinny people because someone before them (may be a terrible player or may not) started the discussion. From my point of view, they are right about something, do they provide possible solutions? While it would be nice, its not needed. Specially in a community where we already have many people like yourself throwing numbers and ideas. I cant speak for other classes, but I have always loved how chill and helpful Feral community is.

As for the magical world you mention, I disagree entirely. Sure, if it were for a raid leader he would want whichever flavor of the month class in his group. But thing is, Bears have had these issues (the ones I mentioned) since they were created and have stayed even when they have done reworks in other other tanks. Raid groups that have been rolling with a Warrior or Paladin have not encountered any issue with going with that composition or any other tank for that matter...What I'm trying to say is that, they have been far more solid tanks through expansions than we have been.

Like the post before this one says, it seems like Blizz wants us to do many things but the benefit is very little.


I agree with everything you have said! I am absolutely tired of reading the same silly responses that we are "fine" by the same people over and over again. The truth is we are NOT fine...
It's mind boggling to read the same people playing devil's advocate and arguing with folks who have valid criticisms regarding the state of the Bear. They even admit they can't argue against some points or that Bears need improvements but would rather talk down to, trivialize, or dismiss concerns. For what? To look "rational" or special snowflake and holier-than-thou? To see players consistently stifle conversations and hold back their own community in terms of gameplay is really tragic.
it's very simple

if the balancing team would say something --- anything --- just a philosophy -- or an acknowledgement --- anything at all

threads like this would peter out

this new team of developers is miserable at communication
For one of the most intelligent WoW forums I've ever been on. I've been genuinely surprised that so many of the "intelligent" posters are really just being downright foolish.

I mean, there are people on the forum who refuse to advocate for Guardian Druid buffs, not because Guardian doesn't need them, but because they don't like the way in which some posters express their desire for change.

I love being a bear. I love running around and being silly and I LOVE Main Tanking far more than I assumed I would (Mainly because I can be a total jerk all the time and no one can call me on it! =D)

But Bears could use multiple areas of polish/buffs.

I mean, I still enjoy my bear. I really enjoy timing healing for massive burst to confuse the healers now. (Healing Touch/FR at the same time). I like singing the "Bear Necessities" in Vent while getting my face beat in.

I don't enjoy low damage or what I feel to be relatively bad passive mitigation.

BUt, again, the biggest thing is this small group of players telling everyone else how druids will EVENTUALLY be fine and are TOTALLY viable.

FInally, Reesi, I don't know who you are. I don't care if you "snub" me. All I care about is your poor and elitist attitude in EVERY thread I see you speak in.
01/19/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Sopa
Now to derail a little and talk about the people in this thread, I really find it a bit hypocritical that some can say that we are (to an extent) fine, as mentioned before. But you see them doing what pretty much any druid is doing. Go Resto for CMs. I say this, and bring Challenge Modes up because while only a few care about them, to me is the perfect setting to showcase the strengths of a class/spec.

I went Resto for CMs because I was originally Feral at the time. Two melee did not work and Dell hated our other healers, so I offered to heal in order to get them done and bring in another ranged to make our comp work. Plus I actually enjoy resto in 5 mans and love healing CMs.

Literally nothing to do with Bears being bad, and everything to do with Dell being the tank that started them first.

CMs are also at the mercy of buffs/nerfs/class changes throughout the expansion, not to mention how some classes are just BETTER with more gear and worse with less gear. They're not a very good metric, tbh.
01/20/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Banaritaz
there are people on the forum who refuse to advocate for Guardian Druid buffs, not because Guardian doesn't need them, but because they don't like the way in which some posters express their desire for change.


You will find that the majority of posters you are referring to ARE advocating for bear changes, they're just not doing it where Blizzard won't read it (this forum, for example). They're trying not to empower an angry mob with their pitchforks out when some of the information being thrown around is simply incorrect and is often the case of poor play.

01/20/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Banaritaz
BUt, again, the biggest thing is this small group of players telling everyone else how druids will EVENTUALLY be fine and are TOTALLY viable.


The benefits of that small group of people telling others that bears are viable is the fact that bears ARE totally viable. Only the top guilds pushing harder mythic bosses really care about comp, everyone else just goes along with what their players enjoy playing. If those players come here and see threads like this and really believe their class sucks so bad that they need to switch, then that's doing them an injustice. As you might have realised by now, I actually don't agree with a lot of complaints that are made against bears, and that is perfectly fine, the world would be boring if we all had the same opinions. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to post in that thread because I've had a vastly different (and mostly positive) experience to what the poster has had.
A few things that people that are very good at this game don't always understand:

1) Viability matters in so much as a baseline for worth. Blizzard is actually very good at making things viable. But viability is the very least a company like Blizzard should be shooting for.

2) Fun is the much more important factor. Both for good and bad players. Druids have precious little raw fun to them, in my opinion. An onerous single and multi target rotation. Low, if viable, single target and AoE rotations. Not a ton of raid utility.

The overall package is just... Plain. Sure, you can play it. You really can. I don't feel like I can't progress because I'm a Druid.

I just feel like I could be doing a bit better with other tanks. I definitely feel like I could have some more interesting mechanics and something fun.

In terms of raw QoL stuff, bear form shouldn't lose range, we need another personal mobility tool or ranged pick up (Imagine if we could Moonfire in Bear every 25 seconds for substantial damage to complement FF, increase single target and have it Taunt, similar to DG). Displacer definitely needs to not leave bear.

Bears aren't garbage, despite my grumblings to friends and guildmates.

But the constant insistence from so many that everything is gravy is honestly stopping us from getting the PROPER message out.

We NEED some more pepper in our gumbo.

It ain't about filling us up.

It's about the flavor. Being a bear isn't always enough.

People didn't like Thrash because it was balanced. They liked it because it was fun to be good at something. Once it was gone, everyone realized that we weren't all THAT good at anything else.

(Personally, I'd prefer Druids be the king of single target damage. I mean, we're bears. I want my Mangle to HURT. Bad. I mean, bears are going full offense with Maul on cooldown, barely maintaing any sort of AM and STILL not topping other tanks in damage who aren't sacrificing near as much mitigation for it.)
01/20/2015 07:41 AMPosted by Pooch
it's very simple

if the balancing team would say something --- anything --- just a philosophy -- or an acknowledgement --- anything at all

threads like this would peter out

this new team of developers is miserable at communication


That's actually patently false. Wrath saw GC posting in role forums like crazy, notably in the Tank boards, and as a result ALL boards tried to bait out "blue" responses. Worse yet, if GC came in and said "Yeah, no we're pretty happy with where X is right now, but next tier could change with encounter design..." the threads would just EXPLODE with rage as people angrily shook their anecdote (real or contrived) as proof that Blizzard is incompetent and so forth.

Some posters tried to quell that, speak rationally, post facts and spreadsheets and simulations and such, but overall the majority of discussions centered on talking AT Blizzard rather than among one another. The Devs pick up info from a LOT of sources beyond just official boards, MMO-C, Twitter, etc, so needing the "right message" to go out as Banaritz puts it is pretty silly.

The "right" message is to put down the emotion and speak objectively and that's that. If your experience is more subjective, treat it as such and be willing to have disagreement. Comments about progression and ulterior motives are basically pointless and prove the point that many here are just here to rattle the cages, nothing more.
I definitely agree with the majority of what you're saying, and discussions are very useful for getting that information out. Look at the proposed guardian changes thread. That actually contains good information, suggestions and is a helpful discussion. The information in a lot of other threads is just the case of poor play (which is fine really, but poor play is not a good case for advocating for change).

The problem with these forums is that Blizzard won't read it, which means the message has to be delivered elsewhere in concise means (I realise this is what discussions lead to). I honestly don't believe anyone thinks everything really is gravy, because it's not. But in many instances it's not as bad as people believe it is. That's why people with a more positive experience will post with opinions or evidence other wise.

I definitely agree with with you about bears being top damage. Bring other tanks for their amazing utility... bring a bear for damage =D Flavour wise though, I think getting hit in the face with a shield or a keg could hurt a lot too haha.
Good post, Stone.

I just think there is a middle ground not being used by Blizzard between too much and none.

To be clear, I'm really just... I'm simply disturbed at the number of people who seem to be quelling conversation, relying too much on "facts" for fundamentally subjective things (Like fun aspect of a class, which is one of the most important factors in a game) and just seem to view themselves are fire fighters, running from thread to thread to tell everyone how fine and fun Bears are.

Of course, they see me as an arsonist, trying to start fires to get the changes -I- want.

It's just really subjective, but I feel like the voices from the, "Bears are fine." camp are really, REALLY elitist about it, to be brutally honest.

There isn't a lot more vexing than someone telling you you're an idiot for complaining without perfectly clear facts, but providing no facts of their own to substantiate their own argument, all while acting like they're utterly above you and your plebeian ways.

*shrugs*

I'm new here, to be fair. I think I'm mostly distressed because this forum seems so much... better.... than a lot of others and has this issue that I can't get over.

EDIT:

Sae: Two quick notes: 1) I'm not actually upset with anyone so much as I'm disappointed in a few posters who are more worried with appointing themselves the shepherds of the Druid flock than they are with contributing. But I understand they're just doing what they think best.

2) I hate the "poor play" argument. It's very, very difficult to judge play based on a log. It's nearly impossible for tanks, especially, as it's much harder to guess as to what they're trying to accomplish.

I mean... I can only imagine how good my Savage looks when I'm doing most of the fights, because I simply don't need it. Or a tank is focusing on DPS'ing hard at the expense of reducing damage. Hard to tell with logs.
The druid forums are definitely one of the nicest I've visited.

Of course everyone is going to disagree about subjective opinions. For many people being a bear is enough (and that's cool, admit it), for others it's not and that's perfectly fine. I honestly don't know if Blizzard would do anything different, but bears have always been a bit "bare" (hah), and it feels like that's really where they want them now. In saying that, I'm not Blizzard so I don't know =) Asking for aesthetic changes in the proper mediums (aka where Blizzard will actually read it) won't hurt anything.

The problem is more when people post opinions on matters where evidence CAN be provided (ie, "I take too much damage, bears suck"), but they've provided no evidence to support them, and evidence that others can provide directly counters what they've said. Or they're looking at logs to support their opinion with clearly poorly played bears.
Ha. You've not been reading what I've been writing if you think I don't LOVE being a bear.

Love being a bear. So much.

That's the only reason I'm even ON the forums. If I didn't enjoy the basic concept, I'd just reroll.
I never said you didn't =)
01/13/2015 11:04 AMPosted by Pawket
Can't blame Blizzard too much for not working on the poor Bears. There are barely any good ones that come out with constructive criticism. I don't think Bears are high on Blizz's priority list and I can't really blame them too much. I'm not going to argue survival and mitigation as those are too theorycrafty.

I'd just like to know one thing that Bears are now good for that another tank can't do much better. My biggest frustration with the class is the lack of mobility and utility.

Single target dps is horrible and now multi-target got nerfed to the ground, but you really shouldn't be playing a tank class for epeen on meters (I admit seeing yourself way at the bottom is frustrating though)

I'd at least like some Quality of Life buffs to at least make the class more fun. For instance, not having Charge as a default ability is just criminal. Stuns are lackluster, Ranged is almost nonexistent and mobility is pretty lame as well. At this point, I'd just like to have a few fun tools to at least make the class feel a tiny bit fun when I'm now going to my offspec. Things like heroic leap, death grip or any kind of closer/secondary ranged pickup is nice. Extremely limited abilities such as Typhoon is not.


I am actually seeing "a lot" of guardian druids in the 91-100 level... not many in the 100 level. *(On casual pvp).

Every forum on the planet has guardians talking about the problems with the spec, though, so there clearly is a problem which needs to be fixed.
I'll be honest, I'd never play a guardian because there is no gear to transmog and not even any armor on the bear barring 1 cd.

I think you'd see a rise in guardian Druids if they gave some options to put armor and/or weapons on them. Sure they have more issues than visuals, but it's certainly not helping things to be that visually uninspiring.
01/20/2015 04:10 PMPosted by Ningjïng
I'll be honest, I'd never play a guardian because there is no gear to transmog and not even any armor on the bear barring 1 cd.

I think you'd see a rise in guardian Druids if they gave some options to put armor and/or weapons on them. Sure they have more issues than visuals, but it's certainly not helping things to be that visually uninspiring.


I actually like guardians for the bear look and movement, albeit that "this is not as I really fully am" is a big feed there. IMNSHO some of these guardians have some nice transmog...

Girl bears, though, like with shiv... no...
Guess I play a different guardian.

Tanking spec is rocking up to lfr at least.

Great DPs, control, and easy tank per healers opinions and feed back.
01/20/2015 06:59 PMPosted by Polyformist
Guess I play a different guardian.

Tanking spec is rocking up to lfr at least.

Great DPs, control, and easy tank per healers opinions and feed back.


LFR shouldn't even be considered in a conversation about what's wrong with bears. LFR shouldn't be considered in conversations about balancing period. If all you're playing is LFR then you have no clue what actual raiding is like. I'm not trying to come off as sounding mean but coming in here and essentially saying "you're all wrong, I do LFR" is insulting. If all you're playing is LFR, you are indeed playing a different Guardian.

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