The Myth of the Sitting Mythic Rogue (Part 2)

Rogue
Prev 1 12 13 14 Next
01/01/2015 09:16 AMPosted by Origi
But then they'd have to admit that it does make sense to bench a rogue in their current state, regardless of their skill level.


This is a ridiculous statement.

If the rogue is one of the top DPSer on your raid team, then you'd be an idiot to bench them instead of first fixing the much greater weaknesses in the rest of your line-up.

These sort of blanket statements, ignoring the context in which a rogue is playing, show an incredible lack of perspective.


And what mythic groups have rogues topping the DPS charts? Hell even heroic groups rarely have rogues in the top 3-5 dps spots.
Not many.

But your blanket statement that rogues should be benched regardless of skill level is patently false -- unless you meant to qualify this statement to only apply to the very top mythic raiding guilds (in which case, you should say so).
01/01/2015 09:38 AMPosted by Kerfax
Paragon, Method, Midwinter, and the like are playing a very different meta-endgame than we -- and most other -- raid teams are playing. Holding up their decisions as representative of raiders as a whole doesn't make sense. Analogously, decisions that NBA teams make regarding their rosters aren't necessarily the right decisions for club sports teams. They may be playing the same game of basketball, but the metagame of being competitive within their leagues is very different.


We've already all agreed that rogues are not in a good state for progression at the moment. The OP and yourself have said that's not a big deal because rogues are still getting mythic raid slots. Anytime someone mentions that they themselves have lost a raid slot or rerolled to keep their raid slot it seems to be ignored.

The sitting mythic rogue is not a myth and it's not just in the top end guilds. Good luck finding a guild right now as a rogue, guilds aren't focused on how good rogues *may* become they're just focusing on getting the best dps so they can continue to progress through content. Any other dps class, playing at the same level of skill, is beating rogue by a pretty significant margin.

The only reason I can see for bringing a rogue(when you're progression minded and forming groups in hopes to clear new content) is he is either far more skilled than your other dps and you're struggling to recruit new dps or they are a long time raider and friend so you want to keep them around. The problem is, keeping them around will slow you down as replacing them with any other class at the same level would get you better results.
01/01/2015 09:54 AMPosted by Kerfax
Not many.

But your blanket statement that rogues should be benched regardless of skill level is patently false -- unless you meant to qualify this statement to only apply to the very top mythic raiding guilds (in which case, you should say so).


This whole topic is focused on progression raiding, the title of the post is "The Myth of the Sitting Mythic Rogue". I think that statement applies to pretty much all mythic guilds, unless they're carrying some really poor players in DPS slots.

Even on normal, when I'm grouped with good players who I've raided with for years, I find myself falling behind on the charts. It has nothing to do with my skill level(I've played rogue since Vanilla and have lead dps in progression guilds in the past), it has everything to do with the limits of the class currently. Sure if I'm in a guild with people no where near my skill or item level, I can top the charts but hopefully people in progression based guilds are average or above average skill wise(or at least that's the assumption I'm making).
OK. I agree with you on that post (#243).

I believe that there are mythic rogues that are getting benched. I just don't think it's as universal as some posters are claiming or implying -- this is why the OP is particularly interesting...it challenges this conventional wisdom.

I believe that some rogues are rerolling or losing their raid spots.

I agree there is a problem.

HOWEVER,

I don't agree that rogues should be benched on less than cutting edge mythic teams, unless they are truly consistently at the bottom of the DPS for their particular team (unless you bench the entire team of underperformers, in which case, you don't have a team).
OK. I agree with you on that post (#243).

I believe that there are mythic rogues that are getting benched. I just don't think it's as universal as some posters are claiming or implying -- this is why the OP is particularly interesting...it challenges this conventional wisdom.

I believe that some rogues are rerolling or losing their raid spots.

I agree there is a problem.

HOWEVER,

I don't agree that rogues should be benched on less than cutting edge mythic teams, unless they are truly consistently at the bottom of the DPS for their particular team.


Why does this only apply to cutting edge guilds? If everyone in the guild is around the same level skill wise, the same thing should apply. Unless there is a significant difference in skill levels, bringing a rogue is slowing you down and you'd clear content quicker bringing any other dps class. Unfortunately rogue doesn't bring something like bubble, LoH, battle rez or lust so if we aren't bringing top 10 dps, I see no justification in bringing one.

I'm glad that some guilds are sticking by their rogues and that our representation is still decent at higher levels(tho down from last expansion) but personally, I get frustrated knowing that I'd be more useful to my guild playing another class.
12/31/2014 05:44 PMPosted by Origi
The OP didn't mention that the representation of rogues in mythic raids is down from last expansion


This keeps getting mentioned. I have yet to see any data.

Seriously, someone link me the source.

I'm not going to ignore something like that.

12/31/2014 05:44 PMPosted by Origi
Nor does he recognize that Paragon rogues have already switched classes and the Midwinter rogues who posted on these threads said they will reroll if things do not change.


I'm not looking at world first guilds primarily. I'm concerned with general mythic behavior.

12/31/2014 05:44 PMPosted by Origi
I'm not in Mythic at the moment, I've been hoping to play with RL friends who have had some issues logging on over the holidays but if I go looking for a Mythic guild, how many are going to recruit me playing my rogue? How many more Mythic guilds will recruit me if I'm playing my similarly geared WW monk alt?


This is exactly the type of question I am attempting to answer. I'll be looking at recruitment data as I get time to investigate further.
01/01/2015 02:42 PMPosted by Aeriwen
I'm not looking at world first guilds primarily. I'm concerned with general mythic behavior.


So you're going to ignore data that doesn't fit your claim..... nice.
01/01/2015 05:56 PMPosted by Faiyd
01/01/2015 02:42 PMPosted by Aeriwen
I'm not looking at world first guilds primarily. I'm concerned with general mythic behavior.


So you're going to ignore data that doesn't fit your claim..... nice.
Well yea, haven't you noticed this whole thread is about the op getting notoriety at the expense of Rogues?

It's like if I made a topic stating "The Myth of Eviscerate Doing No Damage" and linked some logs and said "See, Eviscerate does a none 0 amount of damage, clearly myth busted!" It neglects the actual problem by misinterpreting the claims of other people and being controversial enough to farm replies and clicks.

Edit: Luckily people are smart enough to see this and keep down voting this topic for that reason.
01/01/2015 05:56 PMPosted by Faiyd
01/01/2015 02:42 PMPosted by Aeriwen
I'm not looking at world first guilds primarily. I'm concerned with general mythic behavior.


So you're going to ignore data that doesn't fit your claim..... nice.


I'm not ignoring it. Top guilds are free to add their data into the sample simply by posting a log.

I'm not going to give it special treatment, because that wouldn't make any sense.

If you'd like to go survey the top 100 guilds, by all means, no one is stopping you. I certainly won't. I'd give you a vote for the effort and link it in the OP.
Week 3 data in now.

I had an accident and set the filter for 2 weeks instead of one week. So week 3 data includes week 2. Most of the stats saw a drop is representation for rogues, so in actually, the drop was larger than indicated.

We've been having a discussion about the numbers here. I've been bothered by the unusually high rogue representation. I have a theory that rogues get more kills because the rerolled classes. But that is a wild guess on my part. Overrepresentation is higher than I've previously noted while watching this stat over the years.

world of wargraphs was finally updated and after sending an email to the admin to correct an error on one of the stats we now have another measure of mythic representation.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statspve-classesrepartition-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1.html

Shows rogues at 6.2% level 100 pop, which is in fair agreement with realmpop, which uses a different methodology. The key divergence is the number of rogues with 1+ mythic kills, which is at 5.3%, which would indicate under representation, which would be new if accurate. I've been in discussion on the ravenholdt irc with some of our more knowledgeable types and we've been unable to explain the discrepancy with wcl data. To be clear, I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of wwg's data.

edit:

The discrepancy is resolved when accounting for tanks and healers.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyMRFQsDKbA7W-L_tdYbBh44VIlOmIZaE8wpSAhIGnU/edit#gid=0

It appears that wcl data is showing under representation as well.
I've edited the OP with the new developments.

Particularly to note that just slightly over one rogue is being brought on mythic difficulty on average and correct the statement that I made about overrepresentation throughout the post.

I've left the majority of the post intact for posterity.
Curious. Aeriwen, I went and checked your math on Warcraft Logs when I first read the thread, and I came to the same conclusion that Rogues were proportionally represented -- even though I found that hard to believe, given the reports of many of the Rogues on here.

How did you-

Oh. Gotcha. So the DPS parses did not include tank or healers. Rogues are 9% of the DPS classes being brought, but less than 6% of the actual entire raid parties.

On another note, I was told by a Mythic raider not too long ago that a lot of the really competitive Guilds don't post logs so others can't see what they're doing. Is that factored into this figuring? Might this representation be even lower or higher than the logs project?
So you were wrong about everything so far?

Is that the TLDR?
01/02/2015 10:31 AMPosted by Aeriwen
Week 3 data in now.

I had an accident and set the filter for 2 weeks instead of one week. So week 3 data includes week 2. Most of the stats saw a drop is representation for rogues, so in actually, the drop was larger than indicated.

We've been having a discussion about the numbers here. I've been bothered by the unusually high rogue representation. I have a theory that rogues get more kills because the rerolled classes. But that is a wild guess on my part. Overrepresentation is higher than I've previously noted while watching this stat over the years.

world of wargraphs was finally updated and after sending an email to the admin to correct an error on one of the stats we now have another measure of mythic representation.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statspve-classesrepartition-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1.html

Shows rogues at 6.2% level 100 pop, which is in fair agreement with realmpop, which uses a different methodology. The key divergence is the number of rogues with 1+ mythic kills, which is at 5.3%, which would indicate under representation, which would be new if accurate. I've been in discussion on the ravenholdt irc with some of our more knowledgeable types and we've been unable to explain the discrepancy with wcl data. To be clear, I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of wwg's data.

edit:

The discrepancy is resolved when accounting for tanks and healers.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vyMRFQsDKbA7W-L_tdYbBh44VIlOmIZaE8wpSAhIGnU/edit#gid=0

It appears that wcl data is showing under representation as well.


There are a lot of raiders as a percentage of the class, because it's the SAME PEOPLE who have been playing it.

If you want proof, all you have to do is look at the biggest raiding servers, and see how much the rogue population jumps (Bleeding Hollow is at 9%) Mal Ganis, Sargeras, ect ect.-- all of those servers have the rogue pop way higher than 6%

Anyway,
do we have any new dev feedback anywhere? Twitter? anything like that?
Or are they all still on Holiday
01/02/2015 11:23 AMPosted by Watersports
So you were wrong about everything so far?

Is that the TLDR?

Pretty much.

It's not like any rogue that has raided a decent amount can't come to the conclusion that something is seriously wrong on their own.
01/02/2015 11:23 AMPosted by Navean
Curious. Aeriwen, I went and checked your math on Warcraft Logs when I first read the thread, and I came to the same conclusion that Rogues were proportionally represented -- even though I found that hard to believe, given the reports of many of the Rogues on here.

How did you-

Oh. Gotcha. So the DPS parses did not include tank or healers. Rogues are 9% of the DPS classes being brought, but less than 6% of the actual entire raid parties.

On another note, I was told by a Mythic raider not too long ago that a lot of the really competitive Guilds don't post logs so others can't see what they're doing. Is that factored into this figuring? Might this representation be even lower or higher than the logs project?


Napkin math on seems to indicate that over 65% are reporting for kargath. Regardless, it is very high percentage, much higher than most statics. Unless there is an usual bias between those that report and those that don't, it shouldn't be a factor.
01/02/2015 11:52 AMPosted by Aeriwen
01/02/2015 11:23 AMPosted by Navean
Curious. Aeriwen, I went and checked your math on Warcraft Logs when I first read the thread, and I came to the same conclusion that Rogues were proportionally represented -- even though I found that hard to believe, given the reports of many of the Rogues on here.

How did you-

Oh. Gotcha. So the DPS parses did not include tank or healers. Rogues are 9% of the DPS classes being brought, but less than 6% of the actual entire raid parties.

On another note, I was told by a Mythic raider not too long ago that a lot of the really competitive Guilds don't post logs so others can't see what they're doing. Is that factored into this figuring? Might this representation be even lower or higher than the logs project?


Napkin math on seems to indicate that over 65% are reporting for kargath. Regardless, it is very high percentage, much higher than most statics. Unless there is an usual bias between those that report and those that don't, it shouldn't be a factor.


Mythic Karg is so easy that you can take pretty much whatever you want. Any Heroic imp group can do it without any problems.
01/02/2015 11:59 AMPosted by Thesco
01/02/2015 11:52 AMPosted by Aeriwen
...

Napkin math on seems to indicate that over 65% are reporting for kargath. Regardless, it is very high percentage, much higher than most statics. Unless there is an usual bias between those that report and those that don't, it shouldn't be a factor.


Mythic Karg is so easy that you can take pretty much whatever you want. Any Heroic imp group can do it without any problems.


How is that relevant? We are talking about the % of people reporting to wcl for kargath. What reporting bias do you expect to see on other fights?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Mythic Karg is so easy that you can take pretty much whatever you want. Any Heroic imp group can do it without any problems.


How is that relevant? We are talking about the % of people reporting to wcl for kargath. What reporting bias do you expect to see on other fights?


The fight difficulty IS the bias.
It's completely obvious. I'm amazed you don't see that.

In other words:
The harder the fight is, the less likely you are to bring a rogue.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum