Why didnt Blizzard remove Savage Roar in WoD?

Druid
You don't think there's complexity in choosing when and why to hit certain abilities instead of another? Having something else requires you to actually think about what you're doing, rather than just mindlessly hitting FB between Rip refreshes.

I don't get why you don't find that more complex. It's not about "one tiny button", it's about the added combo requirements that now need to fit a whole extra spell.

Blizzard has specifically added a glyph for people that don't like SR being used. Why is there even a thread when there's already an option other wise?
I don't agree with removing SR entirely. It adds a certain dimension of complexity, as much as baddies will want to deny it.

I'd love to see refreshing SR moved away from prowl > Rake though, too much of our damage and utility already rides on it.
01/05/2015 02:37 PMPosted by Saeilfa
Why is there even a thread when there's already an option other wise?
this
01/05/2015 02:28 PMPosted by Skunkedizle
I don't get it.

By keeping SR in the rotation it makes it Rip Bite bite bite SR rip bite bite bite SR.

Is it really that much more complex, adding one tiny button in there?

Is it really that much more complex watching one timer? Most people who will also have an addon that clearly identifies for them when it runs out?

Not really. What it is, is just plain annoying.


You could say that about any buff when you don't take into consideration how that buff is used and its interactions with your abilities. No, it is not complex to watch a buff timer when you say it like you did. What is complex is managing energy, ability usage, timing when things are going to fall off and having to prioritise things like a buff that consumes both energy and combo points which also need to be used on your other abilities. None of the finishers come free.
01/05/2015 02:37 PMPosted by Saeilfa
Blizzard has specifically added a glyph for people that don't like SR being used. Why is there even a thread when there's already an option other wise?


Theres a thread because its a dumb ability to maintain. Players like the ones defending SR thinking it makes one player better than the other types is why its still around, when in reality its nothing more than annoyance.
You don't think there's complexity in choosing when and why to hit certain abilities instead of another? Having something else requires you to actually think about what you're doing, rather than just mindlessly hitting FB between Rip refreshes.


What thinking is involved?
Looks at timer - Notices it is almost - refreshes SR next
Addon makes a noise when SR is almost done - Use SR next.

So yes, it is just adding one button. And no, there is no more thinking. When you SR timer runs out, you refresh it. Simple as that. No thinking.

You just lose being able to FB one more time, as you had to use those CP on a SR buff instead.

So instead of hitting button #1 one extra time, you push #3 instead, brainlessly, when the timer expires/is about to expire.
It's just not an interesting ability, which has nothing to do with difficulty or complexity necessarily. I'm all for giving ferals something to do to make their combat interesting and reward good decision making, but SR just seems like mashing a button for the sake of mashing a button. It doesn't do anything other than a flat increase of damage.

I don't see how adding spinning plates is that preferable. The cognitive load there isn't about critical thinking so much increasing the number of things we have to pay attention to; the way SR interacts with other abilities is pretty simple, and it's use doesn't require much thought. Subjectively, I just don't think it's fun. I don't think we can get away with saying that it's simple and easy to maintain as is and that it somehow adds much value to the experience.
01/05/2015 03:00 PMPosted by Rokram
It's just not an interesting ability, which has nothing to do with difficulty or complexity necessarily. I'm all for giving ferals something to do to make their combat interesting and reward good decision making, but SR just seems like mashing a button for the sake of mashing a button. It doesn't do anything other than a flat increase of damage.

I don't see how adding spinning plates is that preferable. The cognitive load there isn't about critical thinking so much increasing the number of things we have to pay attention to; the way SR interacts with other abilities is pretty simple, and it's use doesn't require much thought. Subjectively, I just don't think it's fun. I don't think we can get away with saying that it's simple and easy to maintain as is and that it somehow adds much value to the experience.


I'm not to sure. While I never leaped out of my seat going HELL YEAH SAVAGE ROOOOAAAARRR I did enjoy and find it fun and engaging to micro manage. One of the reason I love dot classes so much. The enjoyment for my isn't pressing the button and watching it appear on my line of buffs, but how I weave in my finishers and manage my resources. I don't actually find many abilities fun, instead how I use them.
01/05/2015 02:51 PMPosted by Baz
Theres a thread because its a dumb ability to maintain. Players like the ones defending SR thinking it makes one player better than the other types is why its still around, when in reality its nothing more than annoyance.


Obviously there are people that don't agree with you, and others that do.

Luckily, there is a glyph option for people like you that do not like having the spell. If there is already a glyph available for you to use, why would you want to remove the spell entirely? Seems a bit selfish when there are clearly people that DO like it.
You make a valid argument. The problem is that the glyph is not viable in anything that matters. If the glyph really were an "option" then there would be literally no dps loss at all from using it over the other glyph option. If you're saying that the added complexity should be rewarded, then you're not addressing the original problem at all to begin with.

All the complaints now are because the glyph isn't viable at a meaningful level. Icy veins doesn't even list it as an option. Why is that? Because it's completely subpar.
01/05/2015 03:33 PMPosted by Duhl
You make a valid argument. The problem is that the glyph is not viable in anything that matters. If the glyph really were an "option" then there would be literally no dps loss at all from using it over the other glyph option. If you're saying that the added complexity should be rewarded, then you're not addressing the original problem at all to begin with.

All the complaints now are because the glyph isn't viable at a meaningful level. Icy veins doesn't even list it as an option. Why is that? Because it's completely subpar.


Many a player has abandoned Feral because of having to manage SR. This glyph, while not optimal, can still let them play feral with a very small negative impact on their dps. The glyph can actually increase a players dps if they cannot manage SR. Icy veins deosn't mention it because it is assumed you can manage the buff correctly.
Many a player has abandoned Feral because of having to manage SR. This glyph, while not optimal, can still let them play feral with a very small negative impact on their dps. The glyph can actually increase a players dps if they cannot manage SR. Icy veins deosn't mention it because it is assumed you can manage the buff correctly.


That was the case with me. The problem is that now that I got past leveling, I know that I have to stop using that glyph if I want to be competitive. The problem is that I don't want to. So now, I just feel like I'm gimping myself if I want to keep using that glyph. Thus, I don't even consider the glyph an option and I'm starting to regret picking feral thinking the glyph would solve things. I'm sure most people who complain feel the same way.

Icy veins doesn't list it because it's not a viable play strategy at meaningful end game. For monks, before they added in the glyph that allows you to move while channeling fists of fury, it would say that you would suffer ~1-2% dps loss if you skipped using fists of fury single target rotation, suggesting it was still an option if you didn't like the hit to mobility. I remember a while ago it said something like skipping focus fire as a BM hunter and letting the pet keep his buff was only a small dps loss. It says nothing about using glyph of savagery, but highly recommends glyph of savage roar.
Personally, and please excuse the DK I'm posting on, I wouldn't mind seeing SR get an added mechanic. Something like if FB hits a bleeding target it extends SR uptime by X. X, ideally, would be a number that made it easier to keep up at lower crit levels but still capable of falling off and still requiring maintenance. I feel like I'm on the middle ground here, occasionally having to decide to let rip or SR fall off. I think I manage my energy and point generation appropriately and I know it'll get better with gear. Maybe that X could be something that adjusts as gear progresses.

I feel like this would be an even compromise between those that want it gone and those that want it to stay, otherwise there is always the glyph for a small dps price.
01/05/2015 04:13 PMPosted by Grimnirr
Personally, and please excuse the DK I'm posting on, I wouldn't mind seeing SR get an added mechanic. Something like if FB hits a bleeding target it extends SR uptime by X. X, ideally, would be a number that made it easier to keep up at lower crit levels but still capable of falling off and still requiring maintenance. I feel like I'm on the middle ground here, occasionally having to decide to let rip or SR fall off. I think I manage my energy and point generation appropriately and I know it'll get better with gear. Maybe that X could be something that adjusts as gear progresses.

I feel like this would be an even compromise between those that want it gone and those that want it to stay, otherwise there is always the glyph for a small dps price.


I am very fond of this idea. So it functions like Rip in MoP, how it would extend when using Shred/Mangle on the target up to another 8 seconds or so? For the buff the extension would be a long time I imagine if this was implemented, such as 10 seconds for every FB or something but has a maximum amount it can be extended by so it avoids becoming MoP SnD for Mut rogues.
Whoever said its because feral would be boring is crazy

Savage Roar is stupid in current meta.

So is feral bleeds being trash and bite being 2x a 5 point eviscerate.

Feral meta is so badly done ....not as bad as arms warrior or mages or ww monk or sub rogue.....

but bad.
a feasible solution would be allow Savage Roar to be used even with zero combo point - something which we had a glyph to do so back awhile.

not saying the new savage roar glyph, or savagery glyph is useless - but i dont get why they dont implemented this when it was a fairly welcomed feature.
SR has been part of the rotation since Wrath, and it's always been a relatively mindless buff to maintain to get "expected" damage output. It's been complained about as much back then about being "unfun", even if it was the part of the rotation that made Feral actually viable; to be more clear, more of the complaints arose that Feral's "maintenance buff" directly impacted damage output, rather than most other such buffs indirectly impacting it (eg: Rogues letting SnD fall off could still Evis for full damage, as SnD only affected haste).

Honestly I don't mind it; I'd want them to focus their attention to Feral's generally horrible stat scaling without breaking the spec -- if only because a good chunk of sims out there are showing that going from 655 to 685 is a few thousand DPS increase, but for other classes/specs, they gain upwards of 8-10k dps.

In a perfect world, SR wouldn't directly impact damage -- it'd be analogous to Rogue's SnD in that sense -- imagine if it buffed Crit chance instead, to let the spec "function" at lower ilvls, and at higher ilvls open up different gearing methods besides "stack crit."
01/05/2015 07:22 PMPosted by Adramelk

Honestly I don't mind it; I'd want them to focus their attention to Feral's generally horrible stat scaling without breaking the spec -- if only because a good chunk of sims out there are showing that going from 655 to 685 is a few thousand DPS increase, but for other classes/specs, they gain upwards of 8-10k dps.

In a perfect world, SR wouldn't directly impact damage -- it'd be analogous to Rogue's SnD in that sense -- imagine if it buffed Crit chance instead, to let the spec "function" at lower ilvls, and at higher ilvls open up different gearing methods besides "stack crit."


Whole heartedly agree with this.
dont like it. remove it please. Unnecessary, old, clunky mechanic.
What's the difference between using SR and RIP? Isn't it build combos -> use finisher? Is Rip also 'clunky' for that?
in both you're watching a timer that you need to refresh before it falls or you'll lose damage

What's so 'clunky' about it? hate that word btw.

SR and Rip are almost the same, Hell SR is even simpler, you can use it with 1cp and not lose it's effectiveness, for some random reason or mistake SR is about to drop, refresh it with 1 cp an you're good to go, with RIP you MUST use 5cp

Mangle debuff was annoying to manage, SR isn't

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