Heroic Gruul: PSA

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
I've seen people complaining about this boss a few places. A -lot- of what I'm reading implies people lack understanding of the mechanics involved. Inferno strike does a TON of damage to your tanks. Every second inferno strike per tank (and each tank should only be doing 2) is going to require a few cooldowns. Generally, one external and one minor (for example, a hand of sacrifice and divine protection). You can also shield the tank on top of these cooldowns.

The main issue I see a lot of posts implying is that they are letting an entire group get 2 stacks. You can't do this. The tank has to be positioned between the groups and he needs to swing the boss to the group he's stacking. Groups rotate EVERY Inferno Strike. Tanks rotate every TWO Inferno Strikes. IE:

Inferno Strike 1: Tank 1/Group 1
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 1/Group 2 (Tank Cooldowns)
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 2/Group 1
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 2/Group 2 (Tank Cooldowns)
Inferno Strike 1: Tank 1/Group 1 <---- This is the "rotation" starting over.

Each "Phase 1" will be 6 total Inferno Strikes. The reason a tank takes 2 each time, is so that Tank 2 has enough time between his round of strikes plus the destructive rampage cast duration to reset his stacks of Overhelming Blows (also allowing Tank 1 to reset in the process). Those not resetting would lead to tank 1 shot deaths. Taunt diminishing returns may also factor in (I'm assuming those still exist in WOD so you can't ping pong bosses indefinitely).

The reason this ability hits tanks so hard is that there are two tank damage components. The first is roughly 500k of physical damage. The second is a split of the fire damage (likely to be around 150k or so base fire damage as long as your group is stacking properly, the tank is moving properly, and everyone is getting hit). With no cooldowns, base armor mitigation should drop the physical to around 250k and the fire at 150k, for 400k total (without any mitigation cooldowns or things like shield of the righteous up). That's a lot. The second time it hits a tank, they take 20% more from both sources, IE: 480k. I'm at iLVL 674, using the Tectus trinket for stamina and a stamina flask, I was at 455k health. This kind of damage throughput can be a problem and requires cooldowns/shield/etc.

Once you understand this mechanic, things generally should be a lot easier. Also, Pro Tip: Ignore your DBM timers. Gruul will cast Inferno Strike as his next action as soon as he hits 100 energy. If he's mid channel, it'll be almost instantly after his current channel. This gives the soak groups urgency on how quick they need to be back at their marker after they have had to move because of Petrifying Slam/Overhead Smash. A soak group should never take 2 stacks (they hypothetically could with a big AOE raid cooldown), so it's important for the soak groups to regroup quickly after having to move.
I think that the scaling for small groups maybe the only issue. Many people that are having issues had groups that were less then 15 people. Our group had 11 people and the inferno slice was knocking each group down to 5% health. So when abilities would line up we would have issues. We didn't have and issue with the tanks getting killed but the rest of the group. We tried both switching groups each time and doing 2 stacks. Thanks for the info btw.
Wanted to chime in that the scaling for Inferno strike also seems a bit off. We were missing a few last night but went in with 13. Take out the 2 tanks and that leaves us with a group of 5 and 6 on each side. When the group of 5 ate Inferno strike it had a habit of killing some people at times. The group of 6 faired much better on their swipe damage as that 1 extra person divides it more. I really think they need to look at the scaling of damage on Inferno strike for groups closer to 10 people.
^

Did you put your 5 highest hp players (not including the tanks obv) in the group of 5?
It was all clothies in the group of 6. The group of 5 was myself, a rogue, a shaman, a feral kitty and a mage. I could eat a lot of it with Sac Pact and all but just seems unfair to odd numbered raids.
He was doing 5 Inferno Slices before Phase 2 last night.

That's 3 for your MT and 2 for your OT, in order to drop Overwhleming stacks. We tried to do 2 and 2, but by the time the OT took his two, the MT's stacks hadn't fallen off.
Inferno Strike 1: Tank 1/Group 1
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 1/Group 2 (Tank Cooldowns)
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 2/Group 1
Inferno Strike 2: Tank 2/Group 2 (Tank Cooldowns)
Inferno Strike 1: Tank 1/Group 1 <---- This is the "rotation" starting over.

Each "Phase 1" will be 6 total Inferno Strikes.


Not sure why you say 6. Don't you mean 4?

Edit: Never mind, I think i understand. Knee-jerk reaction posting is never a good thing.
Edit: Deleted Post. OP appears to have it right.

Soak Groups can get away with switching every cast.

Tanks can get away with swapping every second cast.

Tanks also need to swap during the Intermission phase to reset Overwhelming Strike Blows.

Overwhelming Blows has a 60 second duration.
Inferno Strike/Slice is cast between 16-18 seconds, and 6 will be used before the intermission.
Inferno Strike hits the tank only for physical damage, and increases Strike damage by 20%. The debuff lasts 45 seconds.
Inferno Slice hits everyone in range for fire damage (split), and applies a fire debuff. The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

Because the timer on Strike/Slice is a bit longer than 15 seconds, you can get away with switching soak groups every cast. (~32-35 seconds is enough to reset debuff). You can get away with switching tanks ever 2 casts (~48-51 seconds is enough to reset the debuff.

Overwhelming Blows *will* stack on the first tank, but can be reset during the intermission. The intermission lasts 50 seconds, so you need to swap tanks during the intermission to let it fall off.
02/04/2015 08:04 AMPosted by Kamalter
This is why people are wiping on this boss. Even OP has the tanking wrong!

Flame Slice's debuff cooldown means that the soaking groups need to be switched every TWO casts. So the soaking order goes like this:

Group A
Group A
Group B
Group B
Group A
Group A

etc.

The problem is that the tanks need to swap every three of Flame Slice because of Overwhelming Blows (it's debuff cooldown is longer).

The net effect is this:

Tank 1, Group A
Tank 1, Group A (Group A uses cooldowns)
Tank 1, Group B (Tank uses cooldowns)
Tank 2, Group B (Group B uses cooldowns)
Tank 2, Group A
Tank 2, Group A (Tank 2 AND Group A uses cooldowns)
Tank 1, Group B

etc.

This is further complicated by the fact that there are overhead slams and falling rocks everywhere - but the heals/dps actually have it pretty easy. Dodge bad stuff, stay stacked. This fight is all about the tanks. They have to get the order right, and they have to make sure they get into the soak groups fast enough!


Why would you make a group take a second inferno slice?

The debuff falls off if you go A->B->A->B.

Overwhelming blows seems pretty irrelevant, maybe more important on mythic, but i doubt it.

Basically, you're wrong!
02/04/2015 08:32 AMPosted by Sagerz
02/04/2015 08:04 AMPosted by Kamalter
This is why people are wiping on this boss. Even OP has the tanking wrong!

Flame Slice's debuff cooldown means that the soaking groups need to be switched every TWO casts. So the soaking order goes like this:

Group A
Group A
Group B
Group B
Group A
Group A

etc.

The problem is that the tanks need to swap every three of Flame Slice because of Overwhelming Blows (it's debuff cooldown is longer).

The net effect is this:

Tank 1, Group A
Tank 1, Group A (Group A uses cooldowns)
Tank 1, Group B (Tank uses cooldowns)
Tank 2, Group B (Group B uses cooldowns)
Tank 2, Group A
Tank 2, Group A (Tank 2 AND Group A uses cooldowns)
Tank 1, Group B

etc.

This is further complicated by the fact that there are overhead slams and falling rocks everywhere - but the heals/dps actually have it pretty easy. Dodge bad stuff, stay stacked. This fight is all about the tanks. They have to get the order right, and they have to make sure they get into the soak groups fast enough!


Why would you make a group take a second inferno slice?

The debuff falls off if you go A->B->A->B.

Overwhelming blows seems pretty irrelevant, maybe more important on mythic, but i doubt it.

Basically, you're wrong!


The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

On heroic he casts Slice every 13 seconds.

You havent done heroic yet. This isn't about normal.
The biggest problem I had tanking this was when he would do an overhead smash right on our next soak group literally seconds before an inferno slice. I would run over there, but the group was scattered and I would take the full brunt.

Dead.

Oh heroic, yeah this happened on normal.

The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

On heroic he casts Slice every 13 seconds.

You havent done heroic yet. This isn't about normal.


Why are people saying this? I did heroic last night and we switched for every slice and never got 2 stacks of the debuff. Yes, it's 13 seconds plus a 2 second cast time.
02/04/2015 08:35 AMPosted by Monkanide
02/04/2015 08:32 AMPosted by Sagerz
...

Why would you make a group take a second inferno slice?

The debuff falls off if you go A->B->A->B.

Overwhelming blows seems pretty irrelevant, maybe more important on mythic, but i doubt it.

Basically, you're wrong!


The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

On heroic he casts Slice every 13 seconds.

You havent done heroic yet. This isn't about normal.


Lol.

It took me about 15 seconds to look up a random heroic gruul kill, to see them doing it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472J1VSvaC0

A->B->A->B

You're wrong too.

Stop posting and spreading misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about!
@Sagerz

Lol, took me 15 seconds to find a heroic grull kill log and see that he doesn't cast Inferno Slice every 13 seconds. (13 seconds was on beta it seems)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hn834rwmkfJMVcKZ#fight=2&type=casts&hostility=1&ability=155080

You're wrong too.

Stop posting and spreading misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about!
02/04/2015 08:50 AMPosted by Sagerz
...

The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

On heroic he casts Slice every 13 seconds.

You havent done heroic yet. This isn't about normal.


Lol.

It took me about 15 seconds to look up a random heroic gruul kill, to see them doing it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472J1VSvaC0

A->B->A->B

You're wrong too.

Stop posting and spreading misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about!


When we were attempting it last night, it was inconsistent for us doing A>B>A>B. Sometimes A would have dropped their debuff, and sometimes it would fire at 28~29 and give them two stacks.

It seemed to be linked to Overhead Smash going off at 98 or 99 rage and extending the actual time of his cast somewhat.

Regardless, taking Inferno Slash with one stack of its debuff shouldn't kill your raid, and it wasn't for us. All of our wipes were purely tank movement or stacking problems.
I think one of the issues is probably in the tuning, yes. Think about it this way. They either had to tune it in a way that every head count added to the encounter added damage to the shared damage, or there are "tiered break points" that increase damage based on total head count. Either case has inherent scaling issues. If it's by head count, you're always incentivized to have an even number of players. A final odd number player adds damage that he will mitigate in his group, but not in the offsetting lower number group. A tiered system would make the fight simple if just under a break point and difficult if just over a break point. I doubt advanced mathematics were used to try to make it proportionate for all group sizes, which is unfortunate.
02/04/2015 08:50 AMPosted by Sagerz
...

The debuff lasts 30 seconds.

On heroic he casts Slice every 13 seconds.

You havent done heroic yet. This isn't about normal.


Lol.

It took me about 15 seconds to look up a random heroic gruul kill, to see them doing it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472J1VSvaC0

A->B->A->B

You're wrong too.

Stop posting and spreading misinformation if you don't know what you're talking about!


It's because the WoWHead guide has made this point.

Doesn't seem like they (and anybody arguing for 2 stacks) realized that 13 second CD and then a 2 second cast is 15 seconds.
The Heroic log I posted above had the casts starting 15-17 seconds apart. Never as close together as 13.
It doesn't matter what guides say or what logs say.
Just did the fight last night on Heroic.

Inferno Slice goes A B A B A B A B A B A B A B A B
Tanks swap every third Inferno Slice.
Loot.
yeah, the logs agree with you. we're saying yo don't HAVE to go AABBAABB because the old information about 13 second slices is just plain wrong. Besides, as someone pointed out, 13+2s cast = 15s so debuff would fall off anyway...so either way...ABABABABABA works just fine.

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