Am I lowering my guild's chance at loot?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Let's say I've completed half of Highmaul. Then my guild does an alt run. I want to go on this same char. Does my being present in the new run for bosses that I have already killed lower my guild's chances at loot to drop? How's that all work? Is the amount of loot-per-boss fixed, so it doesn't matter?

In this scenario where I've already done a boss, what happens if the master looter tosses me a piece of loot that drops? Will they get an error message?
If I remember correctly, there's a 20% chance of an item dropping for each raid member who is eligible to receive loot.

So if your raid has 10 players who are loot eligible you would see 2 items drop.

However, let's say you already killed the boss in another raid, so only 9 people are loot eligible. Instead of 2 items, you would see 1.8. Now, the game isn't going to drop 80% of an item, so what it will do is roll and see if that item drops or not. It performs this same check when determining whether or not an additional person will be targeted with a boss ability. In this scenario there's an 80% chance you'll see that second item. Still a pretty good shot at getting it, but the more people you bring that aren't eligible, the more likely it is that you won't see that second piece drop.

So you could potentially be screwing over your raid, but it depends on your raid size and how many loot eligible people make up that total.
The only way you are taking away loot from your group is if by bringing you they are at 30 people and they could have brought in someone who is not saved. Otherwise you do not lower the chances, all you do it add to the boss health.
My understanding is that for every player in the raid, there is an additional 20% chance for piece of loot to drop. So at 10 people, you get 2 pieces but at 15 you would get 3. If you had 12 people, you get 2 pieces and 40% chance at a third.

If someone is saved already, you can't get loot from the boss(aside from coins) and do not affect the drop rates. In other words, if you had a group of 15 people and you had already killed a boss there would be 2 pieces of loot and 80% for a third piece. This would be the same as if the 14 of them went without you.

It depends on your point of view if you see that as detracting. You can argue that you took your 20% and didn't put it into the pool with the guild so other peoples chance at loot is lower, but at the same time the chance at loot is the same if you went or not. Since you already killed the bosses anyway, you can't get loot from them so in a 15 person group, 14 people get 2.8 pieces of loot but if you were eligible it would be 15 people getting 3 pieces of loot. Either way, its still .2 pieces of loot per person
Assuming it is not personal loot for my following comments:

If you would be the n5th person(15,20,25) then yes you are technically reducing the amount of gear your guild is getting. This is simply because of how the loot system works. at 10 people you get 2 guaranteed pieces with a chance at a 3rd, every 5 people add another guaranteed piece.

So if you go in there and down bosses you have already looted if you group is at one of those n5's then yes. if yall have 11-14,16-19, etc. then no, you are not 'harming' your guild at all.

But the more important question is, does your guild need/want you there? This past week my guild went in downed Heroic HM real fast to help gear up a few more people then quickly spammed out 9/10 BRF Normal just to see fights before our second raid night(Wednesday) we went back into working on Mythic. Throughout the rest of the week people were constantly forming PuG groups and going into Heroic to down stuff for experience on the Heroic versioins. We would just pull people in as they logged on and off no matter if they had killed it or not, we wanted them more for the experience they brought than the loot they may/may not be costing us. This lead to one person in my group downing H Hans/Franz something like 5 times.

So TLDR: Only really matters if yall care, if you do, just make sure you have every n5 people be eligible.
You aren't negatively impacting loot unless you're taking the place of someone who could use plate drops. You simply don't exist at all.

As long as you are pulling your weight and the group isn't capped at 30, it makes no difference whatsoever.
02/09/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Breathkeeper
You aren't negatively impacting loot unless you're taking the place of someone who could use plate drops. You simply don't exist at all.

As long as you are pulling your weight and the group isn't capped at 30, it makes no difference whatsoever.


Yes it does, it's just not as obvious.

You're taking away at least 0.2 items per boss on average from your guild every week for your personal gain.

Let's assume for now an average scenario: you get 0.2 items on average from your pugging.

The problem is, the remaining raid size has shrunk. If there's anything that we've learned from the 10v25 loot debate, it takes longer to gear smaller raid groups. So by shrinking the raid group, the rest of your guild will now gear at a slower pace (albeit not that much slower, since it's only you).

Now imagine if all but 5 of your guildies decided to go and do pug runs. You'd only be getting 1 item per boss for those 5 people. It'd be almost impossible to gear those 5 people up because there isn't a full raid group to smooth out the RNG of all the different items that can drop.

And what if all (or even most) the plate wearers decided to pug before the guild run? Not only have they made gearing slower for the rest of the guild by virtue of numbers, but they've made it twice as slow because the plate gear is now wasted.

And we haven't even gotten to the tier tokens, which scale by group size.

In summary, saying it makes no difference whatsoever is not only wrong, but misleading. It has a negative impact, which is worse the greater the number of guildies that have pugged.
02/10/2015 05:21 AMPosted by Ikhj
Yes it does, it's just not as obvious.

You're taking away at least 0.2 items per boss on average from your guild every week for your personal gain.
No you are NOT.

If the OP sat out and was not replaced, there would be absolutely no difference in loot. The only way he affects the group is if he's taking that 30th slot away from someone else.

Making loot locked players sit out has the exact same result as taking them along to help.
Assume an 18-man group:
If the OP goes in, they get 3.4 drops for the loot-eligible players.
If the OP stays out, the remaining 17 get 3.4 drops. And the loot-locked person doesn't get a chance to use bonus rolls.
In this scenario where I've already done a boss, what happens if the master looter tosses me a piece of loot that drops? Will they get an error message?

Thanks for the responses. Some additional info for clarity.

  • I was the 13th person; there would have only been 12 without me.
  • I was on my main in an under-geared alt run; I was higher damage/survivability (etc.) than the rest of the raid.
  • Summary:

  • I'm not directly taking away loot because the formula of loot that drops is the same.
  • I am indirectly taking away loot because I took my 20% to a PUG instead of bringing that added chance to my guild alt run; however, I am now competing with the guild alt run on loot.
  • Right? In other words, if I'm over-geared and don't need most loot, I should probably save myself for the guild alt run and not PUG normal Highmaul in order to increase the guild run's chances at loot.
    02/10/2015 06:50 AMPosted by Lenox
    Right? In other words, if I'm over-geared and don't need most loot, I should probably save myself for the guild alt run and not PUG normal Highmaul in order to increase the guild run's chances at loot.


    Yup! If you're bored and wanna raid, might as well try running an alt through instead :>

    Being the 13th person though you should be fine - and you can always discuss it with your group. They might not care about the drop in loot % if you bring nice numbers and help get the boss down easier!

    02/10/2015 06:31 AMPosted by Lenox
    In this scenario where I've already done a boss, what happens if the master looter tosses me a piece of loot that drops? Will they get an error message?


    Yes they will get an error message, not sure what it is, but they won't be able to give you loot.
    It just says "that person is not eligible for loot"
    It depends. Are you pulling more than your own weight? If you're helping carry the team, then you aren't taking away loot. If you're showing up bottom 60% in dps or bottom half of heals, then you are affecting the raid and should leave.
    02/10/2015 05:21 AMPosted by Ikhj
    In summary, saying it makes no difference whatsoever is not only wrong, but misleading. It has a negative impact, which is worse the greater the number of guildies that have pugged.


    Indeed.

    02/10/2015 05:41 AMPosted by Breathkeeper
    Making loot locked players sit out has the exact same result as taking them along to help.


    While, true, having that person NOT loot locked in the first place will increase everyone's odds slightly (by more than the extra gear that drops).

    02/10/2015 06:50 AMPosted by Lenox
    [li]I am indirectly taking away loot because I took my 20% to a PUG instead of bringing that added chance to my guild alt run


    This is the relevant part. Basically, a guild group of 30 people on ML will effectively get more than three times the loot compared to a guild group of 10 people on ML due to less wasted items. If you need half the items in a raid, then effectively the other half of the items that you "generate" are going to PUGs rather than guildies.
    02/10/2015 05:41 AMPosted by Breathkeeper

    If the OP sat out and was not replaced, there would be absolutely no difference in loot.


    That's the crux of the matter isn't it? If OP sits out and isn't replaced then obviously there is no difference, but if OP sits out and is replaced then it becomes a bit complicated.

    Consider the situation where OP can't make it to the raid and they find a replacement plate wearer who isn't saved yet. If a piece of plate drops (and it now has a greater chance to drop) and the replacement guy doesn't need it, it can now be shared with the rest of the raid.

    This is pretty much the principle behind the alt stacking at the start of each tier that those hardcore raiding guilds do. Run a raid with 5 of your mains and 25 alts and funnel all the increased amount of gear to the mains, thus getting your 'A-team' thrice the amount of loot a person would normally get in a week.

    The bottom line is, if there's a spot in your raid you need to fill you're always better off bringing someone who isn't saved.
    02/10/2015 05:41 AMPosted by Breathkeeper
    02/10/2015 05:21 AMPosted by Ikhj
    Yes it does, it's just not as obvious.

    You're taking away at least 0.2 items per boss on average from your guild every week for your personal gain.
    No you are NOT.

    If the OP sat out and was not replaced, there would be absolutely no difference in loot. The only way he affects the group is if he's taking that 30th slot away from someone else.

    Making loot locked players sit out has the exact same result as taking them along to help.
    Assume an 18-man group:
    If the OP goes in, they get 3.4 drops for the loot-eligible players.
    If the OP stays out, the remaining 17 get 3.4 drops. And the loot-locked person doesn't get a chance to use bonus rolls.


    The thread title isn't "Does the same amount of loot drop with him in or out?". Obviously 3.4 pieces would drop with him in or out. The the thread title is "Am I lowering my guild's chance at loot?" And the answer to that is yes. And if you read my post, you'll understand why.
    Thanks for the responses. Even though some of you are answering a question that I didn't ask. =P

    Now that I know how it works, I'll save my main for my guild's alt runs. To add some context, the reason I'm even in this position is because my main is far behind my guild's mains in terms of gear, but slightly ahead of alts. And our guild mains no longer run normal Highmaul. So, I'm trying to develop a game plan - PUG it or do guild alt runs or both (for practice).

    And for those asking if I'm gimping my raid:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/L3ZtvQbnP42XBmMC#type=damage-done&fight=9
    02/09/2015 12:00 PMPosted by Lenox
    Let's say I've completed half of Highmaul. Then my guild does an alt run. I want to go on this same char. Does my being present in the new run for bosses that I have already killed lower my guild's chances at loot to drop? How's that all work? Is the amount of loot-per-boss fixed, so it doesn't matter?


    Does it lower your their chance at loot compared to leaving an open spot? No, its exactly the same. Does it lower their chance at loot compared to another additional person who isn't saved? Yes.

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