BRF and T17 - Fire and Frost Scaling

Mage
03/07/2015 11:29 AMPosted by Switch
Fire and Arcane scale better with stats, almost ensuring frost falls off later.
I'm not convinced of that at all. Frost had scaling issues in ToT, yes. Then they changed the mastery which helped Frost a lot. Part of the scaling issue that Frost had was that it was so easy to "cap" our main secondary stat (at the time, haste) and shatter made crit redundant.

03/07/2015 11:29 AMPosted by Switch
This gives more value to haste, which is the worst stat for frost right now.
Haste is amazing for Frost. Depending on your build, Haste can easily be our second most important stat, behind Multistrike.

Honestly though, Blizzard just needs to decide what it wants Frost to be. While I don't much like the idea of having an entire spec be useless, if they went back to the older days of Frost being a PvP-only spec I wouldn't mind so much (it would stop the comparison between it and the other specs).

With that said, I'd also be very happy if Frost was a perfectly viable raiding spec, slightly below Arcane on single target, and slightly below Fire for AoE, rather than the huge gaps at the moment. The push for Frost to stack Multistrike was, in a small way, a step in the right direction, but with the gear discrepancy between raids (get rid of Versatility completely imo) its not always an option and so the other stats need to be made more important to Frost so it doesn't fall behind so much if they can't stack Multistrike.


I would love to see versatility go bye bye. Reminds me too much or ArPen or other dumb PvP stats that were shoehorned into PvE gear for no other reason but to be a stat budget sink. What would be cool IMO would be to have Versatility convert 1:1 (or 1:2 or 1:3 ... 1:1 might be overpowered - but if it was the same for everyone, maybe not) into whatever the best secondary stat is for a given class/spec combo in PvE and do what it's supposed to do in PvP (increase survivability).
03/08/2015 03:48 AMPosted by Malthouse
Second this notion. Fire can surpass Frost's single target at around ilvl 693 (with T17 4pc) but in no sim out there is it even close to arcane.

Source: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=749#p8030


Thank you. I couldn't find that chart the other day when I was looking.

That said, even at 693 on that chart, Fire is still slightly behind. I'm not sure if that chart is before or after 6.1 and the fire 4p nerf though.
Before.

I should probably update it after I finish going through the default fire profile gear.
Interesting, according to that post my combo is one of the weakest (Ice Nova, MI, Thermal Void).

Granted, these numbers are based off simulations and not real game situations where using Frost Bomb, RoP, and PC significantly increases the difficulty of the spec...not to mention that the second the tank moves the boss outside your glyped IL range the entire purpose of the PC-Frost Bomb combo completely dissipates.

I would argue the simplicity of the Ice Nova- Mirror Images- Thermal Void combo allows for higher dps output in most real situations. Probably the only fight you could execute this flawlessly (FB-RoP-PC) is Gruul, maybe Kromog.
Lock main here. Been working on my alt mage came here to look at some advice and saw this post and i have to post.

My mage is frost right now for normal HM and it kicks !@# for its current gear / dps. And when i take her to BRF i plan to Arcane / Fire her why? because as a raider you gotta play all 3 specs and max min for the better.

That being said, I just can't believe Frost mages are QQing cuz they're not on par with Fire and Arcane.

Mages aleady have 2 specs in like top tier dps spot what else do you need? have you seen the sim? do you need all 3 specs to be in the top?

3/3 Lock specs are in the bottom for ST and we're pure dps just like mages. Be glad your not a lock cuz we have to work harder (more complicated rotation) for our dps (even then we just can't match because starting line ain't the same)

If you want to play frost, play frost no1 is stopping you but if your asking all 3 specs to be op top then I don't know what to say.
03/08/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Íllustrious
Be glad your not a lock cuz we have to work harder (more complicated rotation) for our dps (even then we just can't match because starting line ain't the same)


I play a lock too. I don't agree completely. Do I have to work harder on my lock to maximize my damage? Yes. Is it harder than my mage? I'm not sure. Movement is a tense thing for me on my mage, especially on a fight where I'm running RoP/PC.

Then again, maybe it's just the years of experience on my lock that when I have to move, I react out of instinct.

03/08/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Íllustrious
That being said, I just can't believe Frost mages are QQing cuz they're not on par with Fire and Arcane.

I don't think it's QQ. It's more the pain of raiding after reforging was removed. Right now frost is shafted on itemization. Next tier, if it rains multistrike, all mages will feel pigeonholed into frost.
03/08/2015 07:04 PMPosted by Lucya
I don't think it's QQ. It's more the pain of raiding after reforging was removed. Right now frost is shafted on itemization. Next tier, if it rains multistrike, all mages will feel pigeonholed into frost.
Being forced into changing specs based in the raid (not even a new raid tier for BrF) is incredibly annoying, especially when the specs are so heavily tied to a single stat. Often you can't make the switch until you've picked up a lot of gear, and that usually involves getting 2/4pc tier as well. If Mages who have spent BrF gearing for Arc/Fire are then faced with high Multistrike gear and fights that suit Frost, they will be a little pissed and understandably so.
03/08/2015 07:04 PMPosted by Lucya
03/08/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Íllustrious
Be glad your not a lock cuz we have to work harder (more complicated rotation) for our dps (even then we just can't match because starting line ain't the same)


I play a lock too. I don't agree completely. Do I have to work harder on my lock to maximize my damage? Yes. Is it harder than my mage? I'm not sure. Movement is a tense thing for me on my mage, especially on a fight where I'm running RoP/PC.

Then again, maybe it's just the years of experience on my lock that when I have to move, I react out of instinct.

03/08/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Íllustrious
That being said, I just can't believe Frost mages are QQing cuz they're not on par with Fire and Arcane.

I don't think it's QQ. It's more the pain of raiding after reforging was removed. Right now frost is shafted on itemization. Next tier, if it rains multistrike, all mages will feel pigeonholed into frost.


Well honestly, heavy multistrike itemization will never be enough to beat fire at AoE and Arcane in ST. So past BRF, we will be in the situation regardless of itemization. The way that blizzard has itemized the raids is already a problem, it needs to be constantly equal....not HM having all MS then BRF having all Mast/Crit. Just balance it out, give frost decent set bonuses, and maybe give a slight buff to Frost Bomb AoE damage or frozen orb damage.

No one is asking for frost to be as good as arcane at ST and as good as fire on AoE. But in a game where changing specs and talents is easy, there is no place for a "jack of all trades master of none spec". Maybe in a game where I couldn't change my spec once I entered the raid, but considering you can change your entire character before a pull, this kind of spec has no place in the game anymore.

Frost should be the mobility/cleave/burst spec, but actually stick to that. It should be winning on fights like Hans/Franz, Oreg, and arguably Kromog. Maybe give Ice Floes double charges for frost? Or half the recharge? There are a ton of options here, even number tuning would be a simple fix (buff frostbolt for ST, frost bomb AoE damage for AoE)

The important point here is long term, not short:

Assuming no further changes, frost will be irrelevant as a progression raiding spec for the rest of WoD.
QQ more they won't do anything. I just switched to arcane. Might as well play the OP spec.
It honestly is not about QQ, it's about visibility and discussion. This is how things get addressed. Without those two things it just remains hidden
Is comet storm worth using in pve now? i can't seem to find any information regarding it on Icy Veins relative to Mirror Images and Incanters flow.
03/10/2015 02:22 AMPosted by Letoghanima
Is comet storm worth using in pve now? i can't seem to find any information regarding it on Icy Veins relative to Mirror Images and Incanters flow.


PC is still better than CmS.

It's not super far behind though.

http://i.imgur.com/7X0eSZl.png

http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=749
03/10/2015 02:22 AMPosted by Letoghanima
Is comet storm worth using in pve now? i can't seem to find any information regarding it on Icy Veins relative to Mirror Images and Incanters flow.

PC does better on single target, but it's not far ahead of Comet Storm. What you have to remember is PC does better when used perfectly. Perfect use of PC is harder than perfect use of Comet Storm.

Also, Comet Storm will pull ahead of PC anytime the target or the encounter is too mobile to allow for proper PC use. That's of course assuming you land the actual Comet on the target (targets can move out of it, you need them to hold still for like 2ish seconds).

Both Comet Storm and PC lose to Thermal Void on cleave/AoE scenarios.

IMO as far as information is concerned, the class-specific forums are better than Icy Veins. I'd like to think of Icy Veins as an intro to a spec/class.

For mages: http://altered-time.com/forum/

Just my $0.02 about the Icy Veins thing btw...
Yeah PC is the best when used perfectly...but that's the whole problem with PC....good luck using it perfectly.

The PC/Frost Bomb combo falls off significantly if RNG isn't your friend, you can also miss like 1-2 seconds of the duration because it can disappear mid cast...then it doesn't automatically retarget the boss so you can to be good about efficient target switching. To reduce this RNG, I like using Water Jet prior to summoning it so you get at least 3 (2 from water jet, 1 from initial FOrb proc) splits to the main boss with Fbomb on him.

All of this, and TV is passive and CMS is just one click. Most of the time these two will pull ahead (in reality). Not to mention it's technically more efficient to wait for PC to come off cooldown to even use frozen orb, and that's just slightly infuriating. It's the same logic for RoP vs IF. Yes RoP is like 500 dps ahead with 100% uptime.....good luck finding a fight in BRF where you get 100% uptime. The only one that comes to mind is Gruul, and maybe beastlord/Kromog if you are a good at positioning and dodging. Hell, FBomb_IF_CMS is only 1k below FBomb_RoP_PC and one of those is MUCH easier to execute than the other...

After the nerf though, you definitely shouldn't be using MI anymore considering a passive skill (IF) is better than it.

I prefer TV/CMS.

Keep in mind as well that It's not very efficient to keep switching between these three. The stat priorities are totally different depending on which one you choose. With TV, haste is actually very highly valued with crit being very very subpar. With CMS/PC it's quite the opposite. Haste is bad and crit is amazing.

Considering how good fire is in BRF, I would recommend going with crit and just picking up CMS so you can switch to fire easily. Itemizing haste is one way to make frost your only good spec.
Thanks for the replies. I am also curious, though. How much damage is your frost bomb typically doing on a fight like Hans/franz or gruul? I tried using it tonight, but it never seems to be very high on the list of damage. It's out-damaged by things like comet storm or icicles.

Certainly, I am no really familiar or comfortable with it, but I am pumping all my FoFs into it. I assumed it would be a higher per cent of my damage than it is. It just feels bizarre to me. Comparatively, my ice nova did more damage on those fights.

I must be terrible with frost bomb.
03/08/2015 11:34 PMPosted by Switch


Frost should be the mobility/cleave/burst spec, but actually stick to that. It should be winning on fights like Hans/Franz, Oreg, and arguably Kromog. Maybe give Ice Floes double charges for frost? Or half the recharge? There are a ton of options here, even number tuning would be a simple fix (buff frostbolt for ST, frost bomb AoE damage for AoE)


Frost is the burst-cleave spec. There are just no fights that care about that (except for mythic iron maidens). Burst cleave will never be something that will show up in aggregate WCL logs though; so people will just continue to link WCL parse data and say Frost is bad or lacks a niche.

As for mobility - ice floes and Aspect of the Fox kind of kills that niche. (really, aspect of the fox. super movement heavy phases are basically negated by that). Kromog is actually really movement heavy on mythic in a meaningful way - making you move either constantly or a long-ish distance. But foxes normally cover that, so it's not very meaningful.

HnF really isn't that movement heavy once you understand the phases. Oregorger kinda depends on how you handle rolling phase. Stationary phase is pretty easily handled with ice floes though.
03/11/2015 06:27 AMPosted by Frostedmages
03/08/2015 11:34 PMPosted by Switch


Frost should be the mobility/cleave/burst spec, but actually stick to that. It should be winning on fights like Hans/Franz, Oreg, and arguably Kromog. Maybe give Ice Floes double charges for frost? Or half the recharge? There are a ton of options here, even number tuning would be a simple fix (buff frostbolt for ST, frost bomb AoE damage for AoE)


Frost is the burst-cleave spec. There are just no fights that care about that (except for mythic iron maidens). Burst cleave will never be something that will show up in aggregate WCL logs though; so people will just continue to link WCL parse data and say Frost is bad or lacks a niche.

As for mobility - ice floes and Aspect of the Fox kind of kills that niche. (really, aspect of the fox. super movement heavy phases are basically negated by that). Kromog is actually really movement heavy on mythic in a meaningful way - making you move either constantly or a long-ish distance. But foxes normally cover that, so it's not very meaningful.

HnF really isn't that movement heavy once you understand the phases. Oregorger kinda depends on how you handle rolling phase. Stationary phase is pretty easily handled with ice floes though.


This is my point, frost has no true strength that isn't offset by a generic talent or boss style.
03/10/2015 09:40 AMPosted by Switch
After the nerf though, you definitely shouldn't be using MI anymore considering a passive skill (IF) is better than it.

It's actually only better assuming 100% activity and up-time on offensive cast, which is difficult even with Ice Floes. Remember the minute you start using any other spell that's not DPS-related but takes a GCD (Ice Block/Blink/Greater Invi/Counterspell unglyphed/etc.), MI will pull ahead of Incanter's Flow on ST.

03/11/2015 12:06 AMPosted by Letoghanima
Thanks for the replies. I am also curious, though. How much damage is your frost bomb typically doing on a fight like Hans/franz or gruul? I tried using it tonight, but it never seems to be very high on the list of damage. It's out-damaged by things like comet storm or icicles.

That depends on how well you use it and to an extent depends on your luck as well. For the record, assuming you are reasonably geared, Frost Bomb is your best DPS option in that tier on both single target and AoE/cleave fights.
03/11/2015 07:45 PMPosted by Breaktheice
It's actually only better assuming 100% activity and up-time on offensive cast, which is difficult even with Ice Floes. Remember the minute you start using any other spell that's not DPS-related but takes a GCD (Ice Block/Blink/Greater Invi/Counterspell unglyphed/etc.), MI will pull ahead of Incanter's Flow on ST.


Considering most players are at 99%+ activity, and that a lot of fights aren't ST, IF seems to be the safe choice.

But anyway, that's beside the point of this thread. Frost needs both some short term number tweaking/hotfixes and a long term revision of scaling strengths

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