Dungeon queue should be performance-based

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It'll save you a lot of grief. Hit 8k DPS/HPS average, it's like "open sesame". Smooth run

high dps/hps is no substitue for good cc, and people that stay out of avoidable damage. If you have a group that uses cc, focus fires kill targets, and don't stand in fire/aoe/shards etc. then most heroic runs your hps will be nowehere near 8k unless you're just overhealing like crazy. Dps don't really need to be either but theres really no reason that an 85 geared for heroics shouldn't be doing 8k anyways so agreed there.
I have a solution to this problem:

You're not allowed to queue via LFD for a random dungeon AS A DPS until you've completed at least 10 LFD random dungeons as a TANK.

ANYONE would be allowed to queue-up as a 'Tank' if they want to - if selected to tank, give 'em a buff that doubles their health, doubles their armor, makes their attacks cause 2xDPS as Threat, gives them a taunt on a 6 second cooldown, and makes them uncrittable.

Once they've seen what tanks have to deal with, THEN they can queue as regular face-rollin' DPS.
01/05/2011 3:54 PMPosted by Renwald
The problem with this is that it would probably double, if not triple, the already obscene queue times.


Not if it eventually resulted in having more competent players overall.

Plus, once you did get in, you'd be a LOT less likely to fail.

01/05/2011 4:00 PMPosted by Phoenix
so how would a warrior or dk get into heroics? They have no CC and would therefore fail the test.


The tests would have to be class/spec specific.

Warriors and DKs more than make up for their lack of CC by having an abundance of stuns, interrupts, and other critical abilities.
I would like for more class quests to be ahnded out by class trainers, which are available depending on your current primary or current spec.

They should be available as a quick 5 minute ish Daily quest, and accomplishing said saily quest will unlock all instances approrpriate for your level, aswell as a fun chunk of standard XP and a tad bit of money. (they are getting tons of money after all from training you and tons of others... why is it that the only meaningful quest they should give us shouldn't be how to steady shot, cast arcane missiles or heal someone ectect? :P )

This gives players the option to do the trainer's quests at the bare minimum to run certain dungeons, or the option to run them as often as every day for xp or just for fun.
I kind of made a similar suggestion, but it was pushed off the page before anyone saw it.

Check mine out:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1658712423#1
Blank
I said find friends, sorry i didnt mean just IRL friends I mean that MMOs are popular ways to make NEW friends funnily enough. People that play the same times as you or share common interests or are just good company.

It seems like you want to play with players that are not your friends and will never see you again and are essentially random but you want to be able to pick and choose. This isn't how Random works.

Complaining that you are missing out on a certain majority of the player base and complaining that the random player base mechanic is random isn't a constructive comment.

01/04/2011 10:21 PMPosted by Aresula
Don't Pug, Find Friends, Join A Guild.

Sure, I use the LFD tool all the time, and I get put in with randoms.. funny that but if i didn't want to play with other players I wouldnt be playing an MMORPG now would I?


Not everyone's friends are always on whenever you're on. Right now I'm on at 11pm at night when most people are asleep sitting and waiting in the queue. Nobody on my friends list is online right now so how am I supposed to do dungeons with them again? That's why the queue system is there.

Besides if all I did was play with my same 4 friends every day in and day out. Then it really wouldn't be a MMO would it? Being no "massive" aspect of the playerbase I get to miss out on.
**Warning: Wall of text inc.**

The OP has a VERY good basis for a system. The cries of elitist boggle my mind though.

This system isn't intended to create a perfect player, or lock out those who aren't. It doesn't have to be insanely difficult, but it should make them demonstrate that they know the abilities of their class and the roles associated with it, along with the skill set required to deal with situations/encounters that will arise in a heroic dungeon. They're not all that hard for the most part, but they're definitely tuned for groups that are at least somewhat familiar with their class/spec. I have no problems with explaining the mechanics of a fight to someone that hasn't done it before, but I shouldn't have to explain how to play for them either. Honestly, if you don't know your class abilities, you have no business being in a heroic in the first place, and I'm not trying to be the least bit elitist when I say that.

I've found myself in several situations that absolutely blew my mind, and probably could have been avoided by some sort of skill requirement to enter said dungeon. IE

Running H. deadmines with a Dk tank. We come to a pull with two casters (envokers IIRC) and he charges right in, wiping the group. We rez, run back, and suggest that maybe we should use some cc this time. He says nothing and pulls again. I manage to poly the caster in the back, and seconds later, he deathgrips it into dnd. Well you can guess what happened again. After running back again, he was asked what the hell he was thinking. He said that we shouldn't need cc, and that the casts should just be interrupted. After explaining to him why that wasn't really a logical idea (forgetting focus fire and splitting dps to interrupt multiple mobs instead of just cc'ing? GREAT idea!) he decided to blame the healer. GG wrath baby. You sir, fail as a tank. Next tank came in, promptly marked targets (a lost art in wrath) and we ran smoothly the rest of the way through.

Or how about the warlock that wasn't aware that he could seduce with a succubus or spell lock with a fellhunter, simply because he had NEVER USED THEM BEFORE? We gave him a little bit of a hard time after that, but he learned from it. The point is that there should be no reason that he didn't know that before hand.

On the other hand, there are some people that just all out refuse to take any kind of suggestions at all. Another warlock for example, was in a rep run I was doing in Reg Halls of origination. We were breezing right through it, so I wasn't really paying much attention until close to the end. After the first of the four bosses on the top level, I happened to notice that he was only doing around 2k dps on that fight which lead to this conversation:

Me: "First fight with your new ebay toon? :p" (expecting something back like "sorry phone was on the phone" or some other such distraction excuse. I know it may have been a bit rude, but whatever Instead:)
Lock: "I'VE BEEN PLAYING SINCE VANILLA"
Me: Ummmm, ok............then why are you only pulling 2k on a boss?
Lock: f u
Me: Seriously? I was actually going to try to help you figure out what's going wrong, but with that attitude all you get is a l2P
Lock: F U!
(Next boss the healer out dps'd him. Vote=kick)

Now while he didn't really slow our group down because we were already fairly overgeared for the instance, he would DEFINITELY be a liability for a suitably geared group for that instance, let alone a heroic(think ripsnarl). On top of that he doesn't want to learn anything. Perhaps if he was FORCED to learn how to put out just a bit more damage, he'd get a lot less flack and everyone would be better off?

On the other hand (wait, how many hands to I have to count on here again?), I've seen some absurd hypothetical situations proposed in this thread. A rogue dashing through fire to interrupt? When would that happen? Wouldn't his only interrupt duty be to the mob he's assigned to? Wouldn't that make it the tank/ot's job to move said mob out of the fire/void zone etc? If that's the case, if he was smart enough to move out of the fire in the first place, what makes you think he would go OMG DASHTHRUFIRE KICK? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I've certainly never seen the situation come up. Even if it does happen, the skill check system in question isn't designed to make you learn how to think logically, just to make you aware of the skills you should use when you can. After all, you can't fix stupid.

As for the "why don't you just do guild runs then mr. elitist?" As has been mentioned before, not everyone runs on the same schedule. I don't have to go back to work until next Wednesday, so I try to do a few heroics during the day to kill some time. When my guildies sign on at night, we mostly run together whenever possible. When I DO have to pug, I expect people to not know fights and make mistakes now and then. It's part of the learning curve of new content. What I DON'T expect is the "wtf is a single target spell? I'm just going to aoe while you guys carry me through this" type of mentality.

Nowwwww on to the queue time issue. I really can't see this type of system making queue times any worse. In fact I think it could potentially shorten them by way of two different means.

Another idea mentioned earlier was going back to something like the BC key style entrance requirement. Making someone run a given instance say 3 times to collect the fragments of the key will weed out some of the heroic queue pool. It's a great idea. The ones who aren't quite ready for heroics still get to see the content, all while learning the basic mechanics of the fights and pulls.

The other way is through the skill check system. This could even be divided into levels if you want. These "quests" could be scored, or started on varying difficulties. If you don't want to do it, or fail at it, you get stuck into a pool with the rest of the people in the same situation. You can still queue for heroics, but you'll be thrown in with all of the other people that don't want to put any effort into it. As you score higher or complete harder variations of this "test" you'll be moving into different pools which will inevitably shrink with the increasing requirements. This in turn, should make your queue times shorter. Sort of an incentive to make yourself a better player.


What it comes down to is of course the OP's system is going to need some tweaking and tuning. It will likely have to be done on a per class/spec basis (although that should be much easier now with the lack of talent options outside of your specialty) and it will have to be extremely well designed. Hell, if nothing else, the people that just want to improve themselves for the sake of improvement could use it for practice with no penalty of repair costs. I know I would use it myself. I have a druid that I'd really like to go resto/tank with, but in a way I'm a bit intimidated to try it. Being on the dps side, I know how horribly things can go with a bad tank, so I refuse to just jump in and be one myself. Same goes with the healer side. Either one, good or bad, can make or break a fight and even a group.

All that said, I really have a hard time finding any downside to trying a system like this. It may not be a perfect solution, but it's miles ahead of doing nothing.
I enjoy, for the most part, leveling alts through dungeons with as a healer or tank. When I find good dps, I'm always asking them if they want to reque with myself and my leveling partner. I consider myself a reasonable person to run with under normal conditions.

The sad truth is, the only sure-fire method I have for getting rid of bad players is simply to be as rude as possible to them or simply refuse to continue the dungeon until they drop. I've had idiot warriors wearing cloth gear, using a staff melee DPS, hunters refusing to use ranged or saying they can tank because "I can handle them on my own" or some other idiot combination of player and class. I think the best was when I qued for Gnomer (and who likes that?) and one player refused to zone in. We were forced to wait until the time period was over before we could finally kick him.

It is a horrible design that I'm stuck with one fool who can't listen to the entire group for some mandated 20+min period. I've always considered this to be one of the biggest failures in wow. You're forcing experienced players to group with idiots who either can't play, children who are borrowing their parents account, or just someone who is trying to be an ass by doing everything wrong on purpose, knowing you're stuck with him for the mandatory period.

It's obvious that devs don't pug.
This topic is dumb.

They will fix it if they fix it. If you are having trouble failing in pugs, the fault is your own.

I have yet to experience a problem that a vote kick and/or fight explanation didn't cure.

All sounds like whiny babies to me.


Wahhhhhhhhhh, please give me the perfect group so I can get carried, wahhhhhhh
01/05/2011 9:26 AMPosted by Zabracadabra
Not all dps classes have good CC abilities. For example your

Destroy target dummy with x hp within t seconds, while keeping one target CC'd and interrupting spells cast by the dummy.
If the target is out of CC for even a second, you die and fail the quest.
If you fail to interrupt the spell, you die and fail the quest.


would be pretty damn hard if not impossible for a rogue for example. Keeping their TARGET stunlocked? If they are pvp specced, maybe... but to require a Combat rogue to be able to do the above would cut most if not all rogues out of dungeons.

While I hate the idea as much as you do, this test would be trivial for any rogue.

1. Sap Target B
2. DPS the @#$% out of Target A
3. Kick Target A when they start casting
4. ????
5. Profit!


What if the sap doesn't last long enough? What if Target A's casting is faster than your kick cooldown? Sure, the quest could be tailored to be super easy, but then what would anyone learn?
01/06/2011 12:03 PMPosted by Hatamoto
Don't you realize the difference between idiocy and idiocracy? Go look it up.

I suggest You do the same before You try to grammar police. Idiocy is a dated term.
Well, something needs to be done regardless, so many pugs are retarded and wasting our time in trying to get heroics done. This poster had a good idea and blizzard should consider it. There whole locking you out until u have a certain item level doesn't accomplish anything.
01/06/2011 11:12 AMPosted by Requestmo
In my experience the difficulty of any dungeon raid lies with not actually knowing the surroundings and what's coming up. Maybe they could install some sort of counter to tell how many times you've run the dungeon and group peeps that way. The higher the number, the more familiar with a run that person would be, obviously better geared and therefore be able to contribute to the whole team. Lower numbers on any dungeon would be put with like numbers and have their learning experience gained through repair costs and increased communication with the rest of the group as to what to do.

I say no to this for the simple reason that my alt, who may be running her first time, will be shoved in with nothing but people who haven't run it very much >.< Also, u can still run an instance a lot and not know wtf you're doing. Great example here: I had a tank that told us he had rules. Obviously played long enough to think he needed them. Told us to run to him if we got aggro. As healer, I ran to him. I tanked the mob till it died. Twice. Mage kited one mob, and he tried to kick it O.o
Obviously he's been tanking for a while. He just still sucks at it.
01/06/2011 1:57 PMPosted by Ninyania
I have a solution to this problem:

You're not allowed to queue via LFD for a random dungeon AS A DPS until you've completed at least 10 LFD random dungeons as a TANK.

ANYONE would be allowed to queue-up as a 'Tank' if they want to - if selected to tank, give 'em a buff that doubles their health, doubles their armor, makes their attacks cause 2xDPS as Threat, gives them a taunt on a 6 second cooldown, and makes them uncrittable.

Once they've seen what tanks have to deal with, THEN they can queue as regular face-rollin' DPS.


2xpaper armor is still paper armor and elites have this ability that lets them ignore paper armor and deal normal damage. No thankyou, I'll stand in the back casting frost bolt. Plus, I cannot cast spells effectively with mobs killing me.
Imo the problem is people who don't care, not people who just aren't that great at the game.
I've been training my step mom to play. She's in wow for less than a month, still learning, still leveling, and yet.. still has more common sense than some turkeys who have played since beta. She's not the best player. She has a #@!# ton to learn. But it at least she's willing to listen when I explain something, and do her best to follow it out (which is a lot more than I can say for the lowbies that always aggroed in runthroughs throughout the years. srsly, stay the @@#% put and don't move >.>)

How do you baddies feel now? Someone that's played less than a month knows to move back out of bosses when they spin around cleaving everyone and heals herself. (now if I could just teach her to not heal herself when our pro healer has her covered <3 still, good habit) She even.. heals the healer when they're in trouble *gasp* Or taunts off them *faints* Learn from her my slightly defective grasshoppers that have supposedly played since beta and still don't know how to play (not even talking class, just logical stuff like healer dies, grp dies).
won't change a thing a really. basically a quest that people will do right, like every other quest, just to get into dungeons and keep doing what they used to be doing.

How about giving people a normal version of dungeons they can actually do at 85 before they jump into the heroic version. You want people to know what to do before they've even ever done the dungeon and whether they can cc/burn a target it won't help them learn the actual encounters. Just throw on a requirement like a rep system where each normal version of a dungeon needs to be done 3-5 times at least before they can do the heroic version. It should take at least that to get drops from a dungeon anyways and it'll give people a chance to learn something before they just jump into the more rewarding heroics. At this point even I don't see the reason of doing normals since after 2 normal dungeons I was able to queue for heroics for better gear rewards. That and the fact that doing normals doesn't even teach me about half the heroics I'll be tanking once I hit the heroic queue, so besides the obvious don't eat cleaves, bombs or stand in crap normals won't be teaching me anything about the encounters I'll face in heroics. The only way I'll learn is someone obscurely telling me what to watch out for which I won't really know until I see and likely get smacked around and wipe once or twice my first run on every boss.

You QQ'd for harder dungeons now pay for the consequences and stop QQ'ing that you're wiping.

and if you actually read the thread, the majority of the people that are crying elitists are the ones that read the blue post mentioning the implementation of a fail skill level system that will likely put bads with other bads and good with good. In the end you'll get bads/new players that won't learn anything because all the good players that could teach them anything wont' be in the same queue/group as they are. What they should do is make a jerk level system and queue kickers/droppers and unrespectful players together and the rest that can handle wiping and learning and dont' mind giving some helpful tips in another group.
I'm curious as to why it came up at Blizzard in the first place.

Is there an in-house debate as to wether or not the changes they made went too far for the "average" skill level of the WoW player base?

Are they already starting to see a dip in subscriptions?

Is someone in finance or marketing giving the developers hell over cancelations and the never ending grief that's been spilling onto the forums over LFD queue times and heroic's difficulty levels?

It's funny because a number of the complaints that have been floating around the last couple of weeks have made their way to the "why are you quitting" pull-down. I know because I just cancelled my subscription today.

WoW is doing what other MMOs could not. Kill WoW.
I still get queue when i log in at peak times on this server and I very rarely ever saw queues before expansion so I doubt there's a dip in the cash flow atm

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