Dungeon queue should be performance-based

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01/04/2011 8:14 PMPosted by Zarhym
We would love to implement better ways for Dungeon Finder to detect if players know what they're doing in dungeons beyond just the gear they've accumulated. We have some long-term design goals in mind for this we're not quite prepared to share this early on though. ;)

This means that by the time they are "Ready" it won't be needed and thus wont get implemented. Ive seen this trend now for over 5 years. If blizzard has taught me anything in life its this.

They dont like you, just your money.
lol, they don't like us, but I've never seen a company put so much time and effort into a game full of whiners that whine when they get what they wanted, like 'we want harder dungeons' people wiped in wotlk dungeons especially around launch and they were easy enough, what did you all think would happen?

well got off track a bit but yeah blizzard pwns go play another mmo if you think otherwise.
Love it!!!! But then again you should prolly leave the interrupts to the dps for the most part shouldnt be to many things the dps cant handle but probably the best idea ever but then they will find a way to glitch it or something so. :)
01/04/2011 8:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
As a way to help more people improve instead of just blocking out the less knowledgeable players, does part of design goal have a sort of 'class coach' to help people realize their role, gear selection and abilities?

My fiance's best friend plays a mage, but she won't take advice from anyone and actually wore an agility cape from 78-85. :P

Sort of. One flaw with the current system, is if players fail in a pick-up group, they aren't told why they failed. People then tend to play the blame game, often directing malice at the healer(s).

So while I'm speaking more about class roles, I think the idea still lends itself to your question. It'd be helpful to get more information than just through trial and error. Groups could benefit if they knew they didn't wipe because the healer didn't manage mana well enough, but because the DPS wasn't high enough, or boss adds weren't properly rounded up, etc.


I foresee this going badly. People are already complaining about the linear design of the new questlines, and I have to concur, leveling a second (third, fourth, etc) to 85 has been a chore because basically I am doing the exact same things as before in the exact same order etc. Lots of fun the first time, boring as can be after that.

In order for an automated system to give you feedback on what you did wrong during a boss fight the boss fight would have to be precisely scripted with no margin for creativity at all. Meaning tank would have to move boss to points A, B, C in sequence then trade off with offtank at 45 seconds where offtank would move him to C, B, A and again trade... etc (oversimplification, but its just to illustrate the point). If the game starts spamming you as a bads for something something inventive... ummm why not just bot the game? Or maybe play Dance Dance Revolution if you just want to hit buttons in sequence.

My point being 99% of the fun I have had raiding is coming up with strategies to beat bosses, or inventive ways to control hard pulls. Making a fight work with a PUGed raid comp that doesn't have all the classes required. Or pulling win out of a bad situation like a dead Offtank or heals. Those are the times we're all proud of ourselves and having the most fun, not when we drone mindlessly through a rehearsed boss fight...

I don't want the game spamming "Yer badz yer badz yer badz," if I am doing something it doesn't recognize as an acceptable strat.
01/06/2011 1:57 PMPosted by Ninyania
I have a solution to this problem:

You're not allowed to queue via LFD for a random dungeon AS A DPS until you've completed at least 10 LFD random dungeons as a TANK.

ANYONE would be allowed to queue-up as a 'Tank' if they want to - if selected to tank, give 'em a buff that doubles their health, doubles their armor, makes their attacks cause 2xDPS as Threat, gives them a taunt on a 6 second cooldown, and makes them uncrittable.

Once they've seen what tanks have to deal with, THEN they can queue as regular face-rollin' DPS.

You understand that this would create a system that would be impossible to get off the ground. At first, there would be no DPS - only DPS who need to get their tanking requirement out of the way. Without DPS to actually do damage in the dungeons, there would be no DPS to actually... well, DPS.
My goodness what a stupid idea by the OP that was not thought out past the surface of "Dungeon queue should be performance-based."

1. It already is based off of level and item level. NOONE will run your ignorant test to run an instance that is like saying "to run WG you have to run WSG first"
2. The issue with instances is that "the people IRL" jack around in PUGS (i.e. brb "insert excuse/reason here: ____________) soon to be followed with I gtg or drops group.

Is the system perfect? Nope but fix the players and you will fix the system.

If you don't like it don't PUG.
Outstanding idea. Set up a one-room instance with a pack of trash and a boss. Select your role with an NPC and then zone in with four NPCs to complement your role. A little party chatter and discussion about how to mark and CC, followed by establishing a kill order, then it's go time.

I think passing this "test" should be mandatory for access to heroics. Then make it repeatable for those that want more practice.
The OP's idea is completely unneeded. You folks are totally over analising this.(Yes Iknow it's misspelled, but seemed fitting.) The tools to learn your class are already in game. Yes they are.
Every ability you face in a dungeon, you face questing. Maybe not they same damage output,but it's there.
The real problem is that the few that believe they are just so much more intelligent, work so much harder,so much more skilled, need to get over themselves. I'm sure these are the same kids that throw a fit in a store,cafe, until Mommy gives them what they want. I suggest that Blizz give us a timeout spot. Where these LEETS can go,to sit in a corner facing the wall.
These same LEETS were the ones stressing the point that this is a mmorpg a few weeks ago,a game you play with others. Something they don't seem to do very well.
Another tool that is already in game is each other,one that it seems used to get utilized,but not so much now. Does any one believe that these same LEET players have never got help.I don't. The tools are there. How did you learn your class so very well? We don't need a new tool coded. We need you to stop acting like a tool.
The OP's idea is completely unneeded. You folks are totally over analising this.(Yes Iknow it's misspelled, but seemed fitting.) The tools to learn your class are already in game. Yes they are.
Every ability you face in a dungeon, you face questing. Maybe not they same damage output,but it's there.


Leveling is so easy no one needs to use the ancillary skills during their push to 85 that they will need to have mastered to be successful in heroic/raid content. When you're a level 36 rogue killing troggs for a quest in the Badlands, not kicking them midcast means you'll take an additional 200 damage. Not kicking Shock Blast during heroic Nazjar in heroic TotT is likely a corpse run.
Way too many people reply without ever reading beyond the first post.
Whether it's "some noob's" fault or not, I wish instance wipes were much more common. This game is too easy already.

It sounds to me like some players have gotten a little too used to being over-geared and over-prepared. Too many instance groups are able to buzzsaw thoughtlessly through the instances already, imo.

The only PUGs that are troublesome to me are the ones with immature or willfully foolish players in them, and sadly, there's no technology to filter that out.
This is a good idea in abstract. Keep it simple, and let some of the people who think they can just jump in and be heroic uber find out what they're getting into before they ruin anyone elses experience. As far as rating......i'm on the fence about that. Some of the best times I've had in heroic dungeons weren't with the uber skilled, but the polite and reasonable: they listen and learn.
Also, best dk tank i ever saw in LK had average gear level 191 in heroic HoL. Never once lost aggro and we never wiped. Gear doesn't tell enough of the tale to be sure.
the best way i can see to make performance metrics happen, is to re-evaluate the way LFD works to 'assign' roles from the pool of candidates.

this has to deal with 3 problems - ranking and privilege, both are plagues on end-game. training, which _never_ happens in-game, and farming instances. probably some others.

ranking happens for tanks and healers all the time, it's probably unmanageable if you don't make the system work that way, since those roles are much harder and rely on experience more than gear. LFD, doesnt make the distinction, nor should it. with some exceptions, the tank/healer have a definite role to play. farming is easier to avoid if you adjust/balance the system for unweighted players, i.e. players who haven't run the instance at all.

training, ball, dropped. if class based questlines included CC, it wouldnt be an issue, i suppose. but endgame CC and mid-game CC, are broadly different. if it were an in-dungeon quest, and this would be punitive really, ie. cast sheep to not die, also does not work if players can just DPS around it. making an achievement for it, may be the only way to ensure the lesson sticks, but if it can be cheese'd with 5 ranged DPS instead of 3 players with CC, it will be.

having a requirement in the game, rely on a questline, is 'training' in it's dumbest form, but challenge events, i.e. shoot the marked target, sheep the moon target, all under a timer, is ultimately better at getting people used to the mechanics. problem then is, what do you reward people with who can manage it. a token to enter heroics, an achievement, some XP/money, or ??? ,preferably without jousting mechanics or something ill-concieved/evil

besides completion of the instance, and ilvl averages, and the elected role, there's not much to the way it decides to insert players in. i'm only sure it weighs players on 'co-operative' values, i.e. who kicks, who deserts/leaves, who's on ignore lists, and so on. and possibly it's a handicapping system, i.e. if you drop 4 instances that week, you have less chance to get in until the end of the week or until you complete 10 without dropping, sic, etc.

it's a black box, you queue, 40 minutes later you enter an instance. all we see is 4 options in LFD the role, and the elected guide. we don't see who's got the secondary roles, i.e. if ppl need to have CC/dispell/combat res, if they need to be social, if they have the right gear level, if they have the right spec, etc. it's mostly unwritten, and hidden from the player.

so, i've got 3 changes to improve LFD.

1) the role of dungeon guide, i.e. the party leader, should really be someone who had completed the instance the most times, overall, regardless of deaths or role. if that's the hunter, or the shaman, so be it, with a strong preference for the number of times they elected to be the guide and were successful as a guide in completing the instance. possibly even if they don't choose it from the box. i.e. after 20 runs, "something" has to stick.

that might be a good change to make. upside is, stronger guides, which cata heroics need, and it encourages people to re-run instances as a guide, but it also creates a class structure if a DG gets first preference when they enter into the LFD system, much like tanks and healers do, downside ? not all guides help the group or want to mark, they just tick the box because it's there. making the guide responsible for failure, may be the incentive to stop people being the guide, or rewarding them with extra rep/xp/gold, may be a better incentive to choose to be a guide.

overall, meh. good/decent guides are more random than DPS, and there's 3 of them.

2) there needs to be a category to fill for each instance 'type', so that you don't get a group who can't dispell the specific boss, if that mechanic is ultimately needed. a secondary queue system. or tertiary, really.

i'm pretty sure a 50k dps debuff is 'needed' territory. if the instance requires dispells, find a way to 'shortlist' or improve the odds for players that use it, rather than those that have the ability, but don't use it at all. this, then requires recording information during the instance, such as per-player monitoring of dispells, interrupts, deaths and after which stage of the instance this occurred.

it's impractical in a lot of ways, since 10 points higher in ilvl for the healer/tank/DPS will often faceroll those harder mechanics, along with a solid heal/tank/DPS strategy and CC management.and it particularly disadvantages players who don't have CC, over those that do.

3) don't queue players who haven't completed the instance, into an in-progress instance. or at least prefer those who have over those who haven't.

this one i left to last, since it's arguable. i don't mind when it happens, but it would be easier on everyone if there was a guarantee that people who dropped in, were able to catch up.

the downside is that early content would never drop anyone in at all, and the people that need gear, haven't done the instance, and won't get into an instance if the queues are quite large.
01/04/2011 8:14 PMPosted by Zarhym
We would love to implement better ways for Dungeon Finder to detect if players know what they're doing in dungeons beyond just the gear they've accumulated. We have some long-term design goals in mind for this we're not quite prepared to share this early on though. ;)

You might be well served to put in sort of a "mentor" feature in game where players who want to help other players can be contacted. It might be a bit difficult to say who gets qualified for such a position, but I think a simple system like this would help those that are really lost. There are a lot of people who just don't know what is going on at all and don't know where to look to find out.

It might be argued that guilds can cover this cause but in many cases they don't seem to.
Just having the tag and the purpose would make the difference I think.

With as many people as are playing this game the players can easily handle a small load that even a large game staff cannot keep up with. So basically you'd just be taking advantage of one thing you already have - A large quantity of people who know how to succeed at this game.

As a rough outline of my thoughts on this system- It should be something that isn't really a small exclusive group. Set criteria and let the players sign up to be contacted as a "mentor" possibly for overall game issues or particular specs. Also, maybe some other player references to do such a thing? There has to be some line that will hopefully separate the people who know what they are doing from those who only think they know and clearly don't.

Maybe a rating system from those who were helped would weed this out on its own?

Any number of things can be implemented to make a system like this work well and improve player knowledge.I'm sure this kind of thing has been suggested as well as done on other games in a way before. I just really think it would be a way of solving a problem instead of a symptom of a problem.

i.e.: Symptom: Players get into a semi hard heroic instance and fails miserably wasting the time of others and causing a bad time to be had by all.

Problem: A player who just wanted to have some fun playing this game doesn't know basic/advanced things about the game or their class enough to play in a way where others will have fun with them.

The player outlined above as far as I've come across in the possibly hundreds I've tried to help over the years actually wants to know how to play. They are willing to put some work into it as well. They just have no idea how to truly get started and haven't found the help they need.

Anyways long post. Hope it helps somehow. I really think this kind of a system would help the game in a large way
Would only work for the DPS case. The tank one is iffy and the healer one... well, let's just say I'm not convinced you can make a simple healer test period.

Sorry if I posted this before, not good at remembering things.
12/28/2010 5:53 PMPosted by Koume
On a side note I'd LOVE to have a practice room like Vagrant suggested because I really would like to tank, I attempted in the end of Wotlk, I was so out geared when I started heroics, I couldn't compete with dps doing 9k Q.Q my TPS was terribad in comparison.

Regardless, it scared me away from tanking and scarred me, so having something like this would allow me to play with these private dungeons without feeling pressured from a rush group or angry dps, and just let me figure it out without the impending doom of failure hanging over my head.

Yes! I am having the same problem with healing. I could grab guildies but I'd like someplace to practice on my own without risking repair bills.

The outside world was totally faceroll, so I queued up as a healer. The dungeon was really hard compared to the questing, we wiped a lot, and even though it was partially because of the tank I've been to afraid to queue as heals again. :(

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