Dungeon queue should be performance-based

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01/04/2011 8:14 PMPosted by Zarhym
We would love to implement better ways for Dungeon Finder to detect if players know what they're doing in dungeons beyond just the gear they've accumulated. We have some long-term design goals in mind for this we're not quite prepared to share this early on though. ;)

I'm not going to hold my breath but I am pessimistic. I won't be too quick to jump to the conclusion that this will be the end of the World... of Warcraft either.
My issue with the idea is that its impossible to learn how to use your survival cool downs, use appropriate CC, prioritize your heals etc without actually being in situations that test your ability to utilize those things in an ever changing environment. It's one thing to spam heals with a predictable flow of damage coming in, its something else entirely when you have to change up your heals based on unexpected variables. The same can be said for tanking and DPS. Your latency and the latency of those in your group... the level of skill and knowledge of those in your group... a million different little things that you probably don't even notice but are all important to your performance.
hmmm so what if class trainers actually taught you how to play your class? technically they don't really train you anything at all... the starter zones had the right idea.. like the druid quest where you heal someone a few times... why not evolve that to more things like mages as an example, teaching them how to polymorph.. or how to kite a mob around... or how to do the proper dps rotations.. same goes for other classes and specs... and eventually one is rewarded with a maybe... skill points?.. like Colmag skill level 94(out of 100)? maybe one day people can be judged on skill/knowledge/experience instead of "gear" or being carried in a raid/heroic for the achievements they "earned"... :)
I don't like this idea.

My reason: What you're wanting to do is put in a "you must be this tall to get on this ride" style of system. It's unfair and here's why - How can you get the gear apart from PvP (even that's not good for PvE) unless you run the dungeons.
How can you run the dungeons if you can't pass the test. Also dying because you fail to beat a target dummy... really?

In theory it's questionable at best, in pactice, it would be a disaster.

I commend your effort to brain storm an idea for WoW but it's just not practical in it's current inception, if ever.
I like OP's idea, but I hate how it tells you everything you need to know to the exact detail. Play experience is the best way to learn how to do better in your class, not being shown by a couple of NPC's.

The basic training is what needs to be done, the advanced can be passed on. In my opinion.

This is an MMO, I'd imagine people would learn to play it like one at max level.
How about people getting into dungeons with items in their bag they can't even wear? it's not uncommon for someone to carry around some crafted pvp boe gear in their bag cause it brings their average up even though they cannot even wear it (literally a clothy carrying around pvp leather to bypass ilvl check then still drag the group down).
As my guildie pointed out, its easy to spot a nub. Ask in group if everyone has DBM. If someone says "huh" -- boot em.

Simple test.
01/04/2011 8:50 PMPosted by Trelyrien
As my guildie pointed out, its easy to spot a nub. Ask in group if everyone has DBM. If someone says "huh" -- boot em.

Simple test.

That's a horrible way to kick newer players out. What if they actually wanted to learn the fight?

Sort of. One flaw with the current system, is if players fail in a pick-up group, they aren't told why they failed. People then tend to play the blame game, often directing malice at the healer(s).

So while I'm speaking more about class roles, I think the idea still lends itself to your question. It'd be helpful to get more information than just through trial and error. Groups could benefit if they knew they didn't wipe because the healer didn't manage mana well enough, but because the DPS wasn't high enough, or boss adds weren't properly rounded up, etc.

The main problem with this is when someone does tell the player or group why they failed, even in a nice way, they get hostile and don't change anything anyway. After repeatedly getting the same response I've decided that vote kicking is much easier.
One thing that may help is to return some of the challenge to the "leveling" instances. I started back up playing again with cata after stopping shortly before BC came out. And the early dungeons are no where near as challenging as I remember them, while some of the changes to them are good, the challenge just isn't what it used to be.

I remember seeing plenty of groups wiping several times in places like WC, and gnomergan(sp?) due to small things. In WC, cause of the blue raptors calling for help, the lashers causing lots of pain, not interrupting the healing mobs. And in gnomergan(sp?), not killing an alarm bot quick enough, and getting over run by bombs on the boss because no one hitting the buttons.

Those are just a few of the things I remember that tended to teach newer players or weed out those that did not want to learn.

Also compare the gear from instances to that of quests in the same level range, the instance gear tended to be a good ways ahead of the quest gear progression, which is part of why it was worth taking the time to form a group to do the instances early on as the gear would last you through a couple of questing zones.

With how things currently are, two things that prevented people from doing instances have been reduced or removed in some cases. The Dungeon finder has reduced the time it takes to get a group together for an instance, which is good. The difficulty reduction on "leveling" instances however made it too easy to get overgeared for a level range, especially with the grab bag given out at the end.

After all I have seen some people that que for a random dungeon then quit because they don't like the one they got.
If the devs are trying to further improve the LFD system I think one issue that really should be dealt with is the abuse and misuse of the vote kick system. I really think that kicking a member of a group should be turned to as a last resort instead of just used with abandon such as a group of four guildmates kicking a random pug member to bring in another guildie or to remove loot competition.

I think it's a useful tool to be able to majority vote someone out of a group who has proven to be a true detriment to the group's progression, but there really needs to be some kind of penalty (or reward for not using it as often) in place for abuse of a tool that really needs to be used judiciously.
A class based quest chain to unlock random LFD heroics would sound like a great idea. The quest would have an NPC who would ask you how you want to do the quest. (I think I can hold off the opponents, let me tank them, I believe I can kill them efficiently, let me dps them, I believe I can provide healing to our team, let me heal them being the choices) From there, a mock dungeon would be ran with 4 NPCs, which would test all of your skills and make you need to use all of your abilities, including CCs, tank CDs, efficient healing, burst dps sessions, and at the end, a proper boss. If you manage to do what you are supposed to and survive, you would be rewarded with a 346 blue (like most dungeon rewards appropriate to their level) along with the ability to que into random heroic modes as the role you finished the quest in. (of course you can do the mock dungeon again as a different role and unlock the role for the random, but you wouldn't receive any new rewards other than the unlock for your role.) that would help fix both the incompetency problem due to it being unable to be carried through and the unnecessary ilevel lockout because heroics are doable without being overgeared. (if you have the skills to do the quest, you have the skills to do heroics)
To those who actually read this wall of text, any ideas to make this better, like/dislike?

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