What Can Change The Nature of a Man?

Story Forum
Would you appreciate if WoW became more philosophical and deep? Or should it stay at the level it is now with armies killing each other.

Thoughts? Would it work in WoW?
They tried in MoP and it was just miserable.
Jaina changes her basic nature, deepest beliefs, and core philosophy every 30 seconds.
You want philosophy, go read Vol'jin Shadows of the Horde.

A bit more depth is always good

I don't want WoW turning into the Death of Virgil where a man spends 425 pages narrating his about his views on life or society and how much he wants to end his own
In WoW? It will never happen. The amount of players who would be interested in such a thing is extremely small, and outside of bit and blurbs of the occasional character who might tell you about this in flavor text sometime, there's nothing serious that will ever happen.

At this moment, I do not believe Blizzard's writing team has the skill to make such a story anyway.
03/25/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Lena
They tried in MoP and it was just miserable.


Yeah, some of it fell flat.

Tong the Fixer says: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer says: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer says: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer says: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

I mean my god. Can you imagine applying that logic to any real world conflict?
03/25/2015 01:20 PMPosted by Dhanik
Would you appreciate if WoW became more philosophical and deep?


Nope. I don't play as an Orc Warrior in a game about conflict because I like to hear messages about peace.

I know peace is good and that killing is generally wrong.

I want to immerse myself in a story without having to be given modern day values again and again.

Let me go to war with something, dangit.
03/25/2015 01:41 PMPosted by Meldaea
03/25/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Lena
They tried in MoP and it was just miserable.


Yeah, some of it fell flat.

Tong the Fixer says: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer says: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer says: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer says: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

I mean my god. Can you imagine applying that logic to any real world conflict?


I know, right? There are so many things wrong with that line it's amazing he didn't didn't implode from the sheer amount of wrongness.
He should rename himself for Tong the Wrong.
03/25/2015 01:41 PMPosted by Meldaea
03/25/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Lena
They tried in MoP and it was just miserable.


Yeah, some of it fell flat.

Tong the Fixer says: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer says: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer says: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer says: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

I mean my god. Can you imagine applying that logic to any real world conflict?


The Cold War between Russia and the US

Aaaaaaaand go.
03/25/2015 02:29 PMPosted by Vesiana
The Cold War between Russia and the US

Aaaaaaaand go.


Cold war is different from constantly bashing the brains out of each other.

Tong's statement was also wrong because it's not just horde and alliance, there's a ton of other threats(like cold war Russia) to keep the factions on their toes.
03/25/2015 02:29 PMPosted by Resìleaf
03/25/2015 01:41 PMPosted by Meldaea
...

Yeah, some of it fell flat.

Tong the Fixer says: When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved the homeland of our ancient enemy, the mantid. Why did he do this?
Tong the Fixer says: He did so to keep the land whole. Living with the mantid for ten thousand years has made us both STRONG.
Tong the Fixer says: So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another.
Tong the Fixer says: You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?

I mean my god. Can you imagine applying that logic to any real world conflict?


I know, right? There are so many things wrong with that line it's amazing he didn't didn't implode from the sheer amount of wrongness.
He should rename himself for Tong the Wrong.


You do understand that this is the very basis for Capitalism, right?
And, as someone else mentioned, the Cold War.

In fact, war drives technology, tactics, and surprisingly education. You understand that the Civil War in the U.S. spurned huge social and industrial revolutions for the better, World War 1 and World War 2 caused such huge leaps in medical, automotive, aviation, radio, computer and other technologies that the world prior to those conflicts and after those conflicts was damn near incomparable.

If it weren't for the two big world wars followed up by the Cold War (which is what the war between the Alliance and the Horde is probably best compared to-- all border skirmishes while they hold back their most destructive weapons and tactics, not really looking to conquer one another), then America would never have become a superpower and most of the world would be living the same way they did in the late 19th century.

Basically everything you take for granted in your life exists because at some point someone was convinced that the very survival of everything they cared about entirely rested on finding better, more efficient, superior ways of doing A, B, and C than a rival or enemy who was on equal footing. And a lot of it was helped that in times of war people are willing to be a lot less selfish, pay much higher taxes, accept restrictions on their lifestyles and work a lot harder than during times of peace.

So-- nothing at all is wrong with the statement. The statement is true. Innovation comes from desperation and the longer the two rivals struggle against one another, the more they become prepared for the true threats to their world.
Yeeeah, it's not really hard to figure out what Tong was saying there..
03/25/2015 03:14 PMPosted by Zakktzuk
And, as someone else mentioned, the Cold War.


I don't remember cities getting nuked in the Cold War.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Theramore is not stronger because of the faction war. Neither is Orgrimmar. Or Gilneas. Or Ashenvale. I'm sure the trolls being put under martial law and then slaughtered was good for them. Stormwind is probably weaker as well since it had to spend a ton of money on the war effort and they were already suffering in that regard.

Totally beneficial. Everyone is so much stronger now.

03/25/2015 03:14 PMPosted by Zakktzuk
So-- nothing at all is wrong with the statement. The statement is true. Innovation comes from desperation and the longer the two rivals struggle against one another, the more they become prepared for the true threats to their world.


There's a lot wrong with the statement because it assumes that there are no other threats. Like the Burning Legion, or Azshara, or old gods, and so on.

There are so many other threats to Azeroth.

The only races that are really advancing are the gnomes and goblins and they'd be doing that anyway regardless of the war. Races like the draenei and blood elves are probably still trying to get back to their former glory, it's going to be a long time before they're able to really progress because of war. Humans and orcs seem to be stagnant and rely 100% on gnomes and goblins for their tech.

You make is sound like war is good. How did Germany fair after WW2? They weren't much of a world power after that. How about France? I'm sure being invaded by the Germans really boosted their advancement.

I can buy a cold war argument IF there were no other threats, but that's not what the faction war is.
*Updated my Journal*
*Updated my Journal*
*Updated my Journal*
*Updated my Journal*
*Updated my Journal*
*Updated my Journal*
03/25/2015 03:14 PMPosted by Zakktzuk
...

I know, right? There are so many things wrong with that line it's amazing he didn't didn't implode from the sheer amount of wrongness.
He should rename himself for Tong the Wrong.


You do understand that this is the very basis for Capitalism, right?
And, as someone else mentioned, the Cold War.

In fact, war drives technology, tactics, and surprisingly education. You understand that the Civil War in the U.S. spurned huge social and industrial revolutions for the better, World War 1 and World War 2 caused such huge leaps in medical, automotive, aviation, radio, computer and other technologies that the world prior to those conflicts and after those conflicts was damn near incomparable.

If it weren't for the two big world wars followed up by the Cold War (which is what the war between the Alliance and the Horde is probably best compared to-- all border skirmishes while they hold back their most destructive weapons and tactics, not really looking to conquer one another), then America would never have become a superpower and most of the world would be living the same way they did in the late 19th century.

Basically everything you take for granted in your life exists because at some point someone was convinced that the very survival of everything they cared about entirely rested on finding better, more efficient, superior ways of doing A, B, and C than a rival or enemy who was on equal footing. And a lot of it was helped that in times of war people are willing to be a lot less selfish, pay much higher taxes, accept restrictions on their lifestyles and work a lot harder than during times of peace.

So-- nothing at all is wrong with the statement. The statement is true. Innovation comes from desperation and the longer the two rivals struggle against one another, the more they become prepared for the true threats to their world.


There would have been some truth to his words...
If the two factions had actually been in a cold war. But the Alliance and the Horde have been in a constant state of World war with each others AND other threats for the past decade, and have suffered immense losses with no chances for a breather at any point in time. There has been no time for innovation. There has been no time for people's lives to take a turn for the better. Its constant, eternal war against threats that want the death of everyone on their side, and even more in case of the Alliance, considering the Horde's last war was one of complete annihilation.

People get tired of war. People get tired of constant fear, of seeing their loved ones leave their land for months, for years, to learn of their deaths, and for what?
The last war ended with neither faction having gotten any advantage. It was a complete waste of time and resources, all because Garrosh threw a tantrum. And now we're in another, and you can bet we won't get anything good out of it either.

Now let's go to the other conflict Tong refers to. Specifically, the Pandaren's conflict with the Mantids. He claims both factions have become stronger through it. For the Mantids, there is some truth to it. They did weed out the weak in their centenial attacks. For the Pandaren though? What good did they get from it? Preparation for the next centenial attack? They strengthened their defenses once every century, then went back to doing nothing for the next century. They've lived for all these years and had no technological improvement whatsoever and have a single order of elite warriors who could not protect the one place they were meant to protect.

I could agree with a cold war state between the Alliance and the Horde making them stronger. But as it is, their rivalry has earned nothing for either.
03/25/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Lena
They tried in MoP and it was just miserable.

I haven't noticed, damn I'm dumb
03/25/2015 01:20 PMPosted by Dhanik
Would you appreciate if WoW became more philosophical and deep? Or should it stay at the level it is now with armies killing each other.

Well yeah I would like some exploration in that area, since you know. Not a Pvper
Tong's argument is that the *continued* rivalry between the factions is what makes them stronger. If one side is outright destroying the other, such as at Theramore, or if the conflict ends with a decisive victor, then that will lead to stagnation. And regardless of whether that's true for the real world, it seems to be true for Azeroth. After the Alliance defeated the Horde in the Second War, it splintered apart, leaving it completely vulnerable to the Scourge. And we know for a fact that if the Horde never came to Azeroth in the first place, the Eastern Kingdoms would have erupted into war, and the Legion would have steamrolled over the place. Tong's argument is essentially the opposite of Wrathion's, who feels that the world would be better with a single superpower. Unfortunately for Azeroth, the Alliance/Horde war seems to be necessary for their survival, for whatever cosmic reason.
Tong's argument is that the *continued* rivalry between the factions is what makes them stronger. If one side is outright destroying the other, such as at Theramore, or if the conflict ends with a decisive victor, then that will lead to stagnation. And regardless of whether that's true for the real world, it seems to be true for Azeroth. After the Alliance defeated the Horde in the Second War, it splintered apart, leaving it completely vulnerable to the Scourge. And we know for a fact that if the Horde never came to Azeroth in the first place, the Eastern Kingdoms would have erupted into war, and the Legion would have steamrolled over the place. Tong's argument is essentially the opposite of Wrathion's, who feels that the world would be better with a single superpower. Unfortunately for Azeroth, they're whole society just seems to thrive on conflict.


At this point I'm sure the humans are aware enough of other threats that they no longer need the horde to behave themselves.
Tong's statement only works in the Panda example is because the Mantids weren't actually trying to win.

Once the Sha broke out the Mantid decided to try and win, and if the players weren't Sues the Mantid would have won BAD. The Mogu and the Thunder King might have been able to stop them but the Pandaren would either be enslaved with no hope of escape or just outright exterminated.

Tong's argument is essentially the opposite of Wrathion's, who feels that the world would be better with a single superpower. Unfortunately for Azeroth, they're whole society just seems to thrive on conflict.


The Legion might have won before the world realized just how much of a threat they were, before it was really just Night Elves and a small group of isolationist wizards. Now there is an implacable threat to constantly build armies and improve magic to fight, the Legion. We don't need a faction war to become strong.

Having the factions murder their most elite soldiers and ravage each others territories leaves the Legion stronger for it. We spend all our time and energy killing each other, leaving corpses for the Nazreziem and Eredar to mass raise on the eve of a Legion attack on top of having a weakened army of war weary soldiers and shell-shocked veterans.

Blizzard kept trying to promote this idea that the Pandaren were wise and knowledgeable. But what I got out of MoP was that the Panda's were arrogant and naive and would have gone extinct were it not for the hyper-violent factions to pull their fat from the fire.

If they wanted to promote a "Total War is Bad" message and that rivalries make us strong, they failed hard. Mindless slaughter and imperialism solved all the Pandaren's problems while royally screwing over the 2 main factions.....or maybe just the Horde.
03/25/2015 03:39 PMPosted by Lena
At this point I'm sure the humans are aware enough of other threats that they no longer need the horde to behave themselves.


The writer's seem to believe otherwise. I mean, they have one group say the Faction War is necessary, and then they have a second group say otherwise. The first are the good guys of the story, the second turn out to be villains and the story treats their views as incorrect. I'm assuming the writers know what's true for their own universe.

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