What Can Change The Nature of a Man?

Story Forum
Alright, let me try to summarize how this works in the setting.

The constant warfare between the two factions makes them stronger than the alternative (peaceful cooperation) because the writers say so. It's their setting, and they can do what they want with it. They already have wizards and dragons, so it's not really that much of a stretch for the constant warfare to be a "good" thing as opposed to being culturally and economically crippling.

That's basically all there is to it.
03/28/2015 02:18 PMPosted by Zerde
Did we really need the Horde to do that? If the Council of Tirisfal wasnt so stupid and just TOLD the people that there was a world destroying entity out there that people need to unite against, it would have had the same effect.


According to the game, yeah, we did.

03/28/2015 02:18 PMPosted by Zerde
The Alliance dissolved more because it decided to keep it moral ground as oppose to because we didnt have anyone else to fight. For YEARS the Alliance races(before it was an Alliance0 and its various races were doing fine, growing their city, trying to be more powerful, and all in all getting better.


The Alliance was never stable. Don't forget that one of the seven founding members was *destroyed* by the others in the middle of the Second War, and things only got worse afterwards. And while the internment camps were a major issue, it wasn't the only. The HE left because they felt the humans didn't help them enough. Gilneas was always a reluctant ally. Stromgarde felt it deserved a greater portion of the former Alterac kingdom. And they all left almost immediately after the end of the war. The Alliance dissolved quite rapidly.

03/28/2015 02:18 PMPosted by Zerde
In the real world or relatively peaceful moments have lead to a surprising amount of technological innovations. People in general dont need a big bad guy looming at their backs to become better, they just try because its the nature of life itself.


That's debatable. But more importantly, it's irrelevant, because Azeroth is not Earth. I know that sounds obvious, but it's really important to distinguish that the people of that world are not humanity as we know it. We don't share any background, history, religion, only the barest threads of culture, and we have completely different biologies and evolutionary paths. We are different both socially and physiologically so there's no reason to believe they would act like us.

03/28/2015 02:18 PMPosted by Zerde
I wouldnt be so trusting of the Bronze Dragons. Its not like the Bronze Dragons have all proven to truly be after the good of the world. Not to mention Nozdurmu himself just change time to save the world in Cataclysm. That kinda throws everything they have ever said out the window.


I don't see any reason to doubt the Bronze, especially at that time. This was during the height of their power, when they were nothing but helpful in protecting Azeroth. Maybe that's changed, but it doesn't invalidate their past actions. Also, when did Nozdormu change time? If you're referring to the Dragon Soul, it went back to it's proper place in time, so nothing actually changed.
03/28/2015 04:11 PMPosted by Aemon
Alright, let me try to summarize how this works in the setting.

The constant warfare between the two factions makes them stronger than the alternative (peaceful cooperation) because the writers say so. It's their setting, and they can do what they want with it. They already have wizards and dragons, so it's not really that much of a stretch for the constant warfare to be a "good" thing as opposed to being culturally and economically crippling.

That's basically all there is to it.


Doesn't make it any less idiotic.
The constant warfare between the two factions makes them stronger.
The Europeans' 3000 years constant war made their diseases stronger at least.
03/28/2015 04:24 PMPosted by Sunfeeder
According to the game, yeah, we did.


Actually, Medivh and Aegwyrn said they were wrong. Aegwyrn mentioned that the number of demons killed during the Third War were probably greater than all the killed the Guardians. Heck, if Pandaria should teach us anything its that burying/hiding your problems(ie sha) are not a good long term solution.

03/28/2015 04:24 PMPosted by Sunfeeder
The Alliance was never stable. Don't forget that one of the seven founding members was *destroyed* by the others in the middle of the Second War, and things only got worse afterwards. And while the internment camps were a major issue, it wasn't the only. The HE left because they felt the humans didn't help them enough. Gilneas was always a reluctant ally. Stromgarde felt it deserved a greater portion of the former Alterac kingdom. And they all left almost immediately after the end of the war. The Alliance dissolved quite rapidly.


Stromwind, Lordearon, Ironforge, Dalaran and Kul Tiras all remained loyal. You seem to forget that. The Internment camps were probably the be all and all reason for the Alliance disolving. I wonder what would have happen if it simply killed all the orcs, damn its moral.

03/28/2015 04:24 PMPosted by Sunfeeder
That's debatable. But more importantly, it's irrelevant, because Azeroth is not Earth. I know that sounds obvious, but it's really important to distinguish that the people of that world are not humanity as we know it. We don't share any background, history, religion, only the barest threads of culture, and we have completely different biologies and evolutionary paths. We are different both socially and physiologically so there's no reason to believe they would act like us.


Then think of this all the human and dwarven kingdoms THRIVED during its time of peace. Before the orcs ever came to Azeroth all of humanity had shining cities and productive and well off people. The gnomes being gnomes were innovating with or without the orcs, and considering Azeroth was never a safe place, there would still be a good incentive to continue to make strong walls, research new technologies and generally just try to advance.

03/28/2015 04:24 PMPosted by Sunfeeder
I don't see any reason to doubt the Bronze, especially at that time. This was during the height of their power, when they were nothing but helpful in protecting Azeroth. Maybe that's changed, but it doesn't invalidate their past actions. Also, when did Nozdormu change time? If you're referring to the Dragon Soul, it went back to it's proper place in time, so nothing actually changed.


You do realize we attack Azjhara(which never happened in the original war of the ancients?) Lets not forget Nozdurmu sent Rhonin back to change that particular event to stop the Old Gods. So yeah, that particular part of history is the biggest change in time.

Also, we didnt have a reason to doubt Kairos back in Mists, look how that turned out. For all we know the Bronze were helping were already corrupted by the Old God.
03/28/2015 04:24 PMPosted by Sunfeeder
The HE left because they felt the humans didn't help them enough.


That's the excuse they gave. The High elves never wanted to be part of the Alliance and they took the first opportunity they could to leave.
Well, by 'they', I mean the government. Plenty of High elves remained loyal and left their kingdom to continue aiding the Alliance.
03/28/2015 04:28 PMPosted by Lena
Doesn't make it any less idiotic.

I know. It strains credulity and certainly doesn't help my suspension of disbelief. It's just not something that is going to change any time soon (or ever). Blizzard has heavily invested in reinforcing the two faction system for gameplay reasons. It's the narrative they've chosen, and I don't see them changing course.
Oh, that silly zeleot is down voting Blue and neutral posters again. Time to counteract upvote.
03/28/2015 06:38 PMPosted by Aemon
03/28/2015 04:28 PMPosted by Lena
Doesn't make it any less idiotic.

I know. It strains credulity and certainly doesn't help my suspension of disbelief. It's just not something that is going to change any time soon (or ever). Blizzard has heavily invested in reinforcing the two faction system for gameplay reasons. It's the narrative they've chosen, and I don't see them changing course.


It doesn't need to change it just needs to scale appropriately. The Alliance and Horde can easily be in competition with each other; no one is suggesting that they need to become fast friends. But the days of the extreme, total war approach that was seen in WC1-2? That just doesn't work anymore, and not just because the array of bad guys has gotten larger then just being the opposite faction.
I find that trauma is easily the most common form of changing a person.
03/28/2015 04:37 PMPosted by Zerde
Actually, Medivh and Aegwyrn said they were wrong.


Did they say the Bronze were wrong? Because they were the ones that said that the Alliance wouldn't have formed if it wasn't for the Horde, and that the kingdoms would have devoured each other. Considering their whole thing is knowing alternate timelines, I'd go with their opinions.

03/28/2015 04:37 PMPosted by Zerde
Stromwind, Lordearon, Ironforge, Dalaran and Kul Tiras all remained loyal. You seem to forget that. The Internment camps were probably the be all and all reason for the Alliance disolving. I wonder what would have happen if it simply killed all the orcs, damn its moral.


I didn't forget that. You said the Alliance was stable. Half the Alliance had left by the end of the Second War. I don't really count that as "stable". And by the time of the Third War, the Alliance was practically non-existent. Also, if they killed the Orcs, you'd probably just end up with the *other* half of the Alliance leaving. Lordaeron and SW would have left in disagreement. The HE were gone regardless, as was Gilneas. I mean, I doubt Gilneas went 100% isolationist *just* over that one issue, they always prefered keeping to themselves. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back. There was still the matter of the former Alterac territory, among other issues.

03/28/2015 04:37 PMPosted by Zerde
Then think of this all the human and dwarven kingdoms THRIVED during its time of peace. Before the orcs ever came to Azeroth all of humanity had shining cities and productive and well off people. The gnomes being gnomes were innovating with or without the orcs, and considering Azeroth was never a safe place, there would still be a good incentive to continue to make strong walls, research new technologies and generally just try to advance.


And we know it wouldn't have lasted. Again, big picture here. Things may have looked sunny then, but that can change in the blink of an eye. In fact it would have, we know this.

03/28/2015 04:37 PMPosted by Zerde
Lets not forget Nozdurmu sent Rhonin back to change that particular event to stop the Old Gods. So yeah, that particular part of history is the biggest change in time.


He was sent back to *prevent* further changes. The Old Gods opened the rift in order to change the past, Nozdormu made sure those three were sent back to ensure things weren't greatly affected. If he hadn't, the Old Gods would have been released, and the timeline would be !@#$ed over. Which, y'know, it's his job to prevent that sort of stuff. If he was really working for the Old Gods at that time, he would have just let things play out.
03/29/2015 04:23 AMPosted by Sunfeeder
Did they say the Bronze were wrong? Because they were the ones that said that the Alliance wouldn't have formed if it wasn't for the Horde, and that the kingdoms would have devoured each other. Considering their whole thing is knowing alternate timelines, I'd go with their opinions.


They said the council was wrong for hiding the war. If the council didnt hide the Legion, then the Horde wouldnt have needed to "warn" the Alliance of the impending Legion invasion.

03/29/2015 04:23 AMPosted by Sunfeeder
He was sent back to *prevent* further changes. The Old Gods opened the rift in order to change the past, Nozdormu made sure those three were sent back to ensure things weren't greatly affected. If he hadn't, the Old Gods would have been released, and the timeline would be !@#$ed over. Which, y'know, it's his job to prevent that sort of stuff. If he was really working for the Old Gods at that time, he would have just let things play out.


Who is to say Nozdormu isnt playing into the old gods hands? Bottomline, the timeline was changed. Nozdurmu failed in his charge one way or the other. His actions in the Cataclysm simply further the fact that maybe the "current" timeline isnt exactly the best time/the one that is needed to ensure Azeroth and the universe survives.

And we know it wouldn't have lasted. Again, big picture here. Things may have looked sunny then, but that can change in the blink of an eye. In fact it would have, we know this.


Things can change, however that isnt what we are arguing about here. We are arguing that the Alliance races needed the big bad Horde to try and make some sort of technological/improve their society. The time period before the Horde arrives proves that the Horde isnt needed as a catalyst. And if we really needed a big bad to scare the people into working together the Council of Tirisfal merely needed to tell everyone that the Legion was out their trying to find a way to wipe them out.
Running through Thousand Needles just last night on my umpteenth alt, I'm reminded of that brief questline where you're sent to get oil from the tribe of centaurs living up in the cliffs being a commentary on real-world history: America's history of exploiting, evicting, etc. the Native Americans throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Granted, it was a bit ham-fisted in playing up your faction's questgiver as a greedy capitalist, but it never actually outright had anyone in-game saying "wait, this is actually kinda messed up", either.

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