Give Undead same racial as human

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@BreezyQT - I'd direct you to look at Midwinter then kindly swallow your ignorant statement.

@Thxownedlol - Your statement is entirely wrong because EVERY high end PVP player would drop that $30 instantly to transfer faction/race. Been done a dozen times before this would be no different.

@Lore - While I understand the social aspect to which you are directing the conversation the evidence, that is easily viewed by those of us who follow PVP [2.2k previous seasons, Alliance and Horde on multiple classes] can tell you and would tell you that it is false conclusions. Your statement of sample size of 500 becomes an issue because it is guaranteed to flow one way regardless because the pool would be stale for engaging play. Use the sample size you can actively show the community with true evidence. Click the arena 3v3 bracket, sort it by rankings and then let me know how many people made an ACTIVE choice to be something other than Human when they could. Would I play Dwarf if I could, hell yes, the beard is legit, but the fact of the matter is that if I want to be a Min/Maxer in PVP you play Alliance - Human. It is that cut and dry because no matter what social aspect you point to, I can flood you with numbers showing how a 2nd DPS trinket is more valued than a CC Break if I have free access to one without draw back. And while I respect @Holinka has been under fire since coming into the light after Ashran was a colossal failure (which is was, no one likes it and we were gated into doing it to max CQ points) his statements or lack thereof regarding the community at large, both EU and US stating that the HUMAN (not other racial but SPECIFICALLY HUMAN ONLY) is viciously imbalanced and shown by the simple math is inexcusable. He wants to be the PVP community manager than he needs to address the concern that has been the forefront of every PVP discussion since WoD released. Put it this way, if someone at BlizzCon picks a non-Human class for one that is eligible to be so, then MAYBE the community got it wrong, but I am pretty damn sure that North Korea would broadcast "The Interview" before that day comes.
Show us numbers.People dont care about your guess work.
Wow so much hatred lol... 3 alliance guilds in the top 50 in the world *Golf calp* Wow your so right how could I be so blind?
My dear lore,

Yes, it is true that the tippy top players will choose a faction to play with each other, but I do not think this is the real issue.

The issue is when massive amounts of players decide to choose a single faction.

Even a perceived advantage can have a huge impact on player behavior... and even if the imbalance does not in itself cause great disparities, the larger effects it has on the community certainly can be an issue.

I believe that various incentives can also impact player behavior. For instance, reduced cost of faction changes for particular servers could help a bit.. the grass always seems greener, the additional incentive sweetens the deal.

Another example might be a small increase in XP gains for the less dominant faction on a particular realm. This would encourage new players (who do not have BOA gear) a definite incentive to choose one faction over the other. It would also make re-rolls more appealing... slightly reducing the time it takes to get the new character to lvl cap.

In any event, I do not think the current racial EMFH is particularly interesting and engaging, and at this point (post stoneform nerf) seems to be the point of contention for many players. Also, item lvl increases and changes to PVP trinkets alter the power of the racial in ways that could cause balance issues where there need not be. I think it might be best to give every race a "trinket" ability and give humans something a bit more unique.

This would end the advantage (whether real or perceived) AND allow for some more creative ideas for PVP trinkets.
04/03/2015 10:31 AMPosted by Breezyqt
Wow so much hatred lol... 3 alliance guilds in the top 50 in the world *Golf calp* Wow your so right how could I be so blind?
So you are saying that because of PVE raid guilds, we should IGNORE balance in PVP?
No I'm saying address both, all I'm saying is don't !@#$% about one without looking at the other one to.
@Breezyqt - this is a PVP thread, not PVE. Those guilds have been Horde since the beginning when racials weren't much to do with this game at all. You want to bring PVE into it but the fact is they have established relationships there and a margin shift of 20-30 people is unreliable in ensuring that your core raid group stays together. In a 2-5 person model which is PVPcentric it is more realistic to expect those people to shift if there is clear imbalance. Not trying to hate on you at all but your argument is flawed in its underlying baseline. If guilds were given the option to shift, cost free, their entire roster including alts etc, I ensure you would see a shift to Alliance preference for the Human/Dwarf/NE racial as well.
Soooo your saying everyone ( thousands) were willing to spend the money to go to alliance for PVP but won't spend the cash to go alliance for PVE? You do know it's a fact that Horde racials are a better for dps in PVE right? It's been like that for years. Also I do know this is a PVP thread I just don't want to see alliance get !@#$ on becuase of PVP QQ when they both should be fairly addressed.

Also PVE is all about maxing ur dps they would spend the cash for the advantage hands down.
You're failing to understand the dynamic between transferring 3-5 people versus transferring 30+. Also, please show me what racials for PVE are grossly imbalanced.
04/02/2015 06:06 PMPosted by Lore
There's an interesting social phenomenon surrounding racial balance in highly rated PvP. I don't think that equal representation (or even close) is actually possible at the top end of the rankings.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not going to make the argument that racials are perfectly balanced. I honestly don't have much info to share in terms of actual racial balance other than it's something we talk about fairly regularly. So, don't take this as me saying "racials are fine," just providing a secondary viewpoint on racial distribution at the highest skill levels in PvP. Racial balance is something we constantly investigate and it's entirely possible we will make further adjustments in the future.

Now that we've got that out of the way: top-rated PvP'ers like to be able to play with each other. If we're looking at the top 500 PvP'ers, 500 people is a small enough community that, if I want to be sure I can always find a solid teammate, I'm going to want to pick whichever faction other people are playing.

Interestingly enough, in Mists of Pandaria, the vast majority of top-rated PvP'ers in the North American region were Horde, while the opposite was true in Europe, where most of the top-rated PvP'ers were Alliance. In NA, we saw a ton of feedback that Alliance racials (other than Human) were weak and needed buffs. In EU, we saw the same feedback, but for the Horde races. Both regions were playing the exact same game, but were giving opposing feedback -- and overwhelmingly so.

Then, Warlords released, and we made a few balance tweaks to racials that ended up being mostly buffs on the Alliance side (most notably to Stoneform), and nerfs for Horde (some of which were later reverted, e.g. Will of the Forsaken). In the wake of this, a ton of top-end North American PvP'ers faction changed to Alliance.

Now, you could make the argument that all of those players independently decided that Alliance racials were buffed so much that they should faction transfer. It's certainly possible. I think that at least some number of those players weren't faction transferring over racials, though. I think they were faction transferring because their friends and teammates were.

I guess the points I'm trying to make here are:
  • People want to play with their friends, which is pretty obvious but also has interesting social effects.
  • When you're looking at a sample size as small as 500, those social effects will amplify game balance issues, even if the actual difference is minor (or heavily influenced by perception, as the MoP example shows).

All that being said, I'll bring up racials to the design team again. Can't guarantee I'll have any info to share, just that I'll ask about it. I just think that the extreme top end is always going to skew towards one faction, even if racials are perfectly balanced.


Its very simple.. Make undead the same racial as human (every man for himself = will of the forsaken)
leave that as is for 2 months.
Check results.
04/03/2015 10:01 AMPosted by Exos
04/03/2015 07:58 AMPosted by Wolfhoof
Years ago one had to be an engineer to take full advantage of pvp.

Blizzard nerfed that and made it unusable it high end pvp so it did not feel like a requirement to compete.

How is EMFH any different. A need for one manual cc break was seen years ago so the trinket was created.

This has always been a contentious point regardless if when it was the full WOTF or EMFH now.

Make the trinket ability baseline so this ends and Blizzard is no longer contradicting previous stances and it allows people unwilling to be a human in a fantasy game the chance to not be hamstrung (whether in reality or just perception).

I'm Human irl. Why in the h*ll would i want to be one in an rpg?


I agree with this and often question why isn't the CC break trinket ability (aka Every Man For Himself) a baseline ability for all classes/specs?

The game has changed a ton over the years and I really believe that the current trinket system for PVP is dated. You already need two trinkets to make sure you take 15% less damage in PVP but now you are forced to have one of those choices be something that really should be a baseline spell for everyone. I just don't understand why they (Blue/Blizz) is so stonewalled against this or find it so hard to believe that two DPS trinkets is a pretty big deal.

Make it the CC break trinket ability baseline. Current trinket system is dated and irrational.


I agree with you and if you think about it if EVERYONE other than human needs the break-out trink in order to pvp. Is it really a choice?

Also I still prefer the idea to apply only while in arenas/bgs. That way a change like that doesn't affect pve players. I mean certain passives just go with the lore of the race

i.e.
blood fury-orcs been corrupted after gromash drinking blood of monoroth
shadowmeld- nelfs spending so much times in forest they know how to hide better :P
etc.

If u think about it this is only relevant cause it AFFECTS pvp and greatly. See if racials were more like the worgen's transform in and out of human thing it would be better for everyone. You never hear anyone complain about that, that's because it serves its purpose in enriching the lore for the race ( for those that care) yet it literally has no bearing in any other aspect of the game.

This is just opinion but if your using a racial to get xtra dmg in raid, or to improve pvp than that racial has failed to do its job. If anything it gets cheapened.

If Every Man for Himself was made to show human's priority of survival above kinship or the like, it could be done in other ways that don't impact gameplay. The same thing could be said of the dwarves, nothing wrong with stoneform if it doesn't boost ur defense. I think it all comes down to what is blizzard trying to accomplish with racials, if is to enrich lore like I suspect than they need to be nothing more than cosmetics with some flavor text perhaps.

Also I realize lots of pve talk in here maybe not the right place for post, but I feel great part of it relevant to both pvp and pve.
04/02/2015 06:06 PMPosted by Lore
All that being said, I'll bring up racials to the design team again. Can't guarantee I'll have any info to share, just that I'll ask about it. I just think that the extreme top end is always going to skew towards one faction, even if racials are perfectly balanced.


Want "perfectly balanced"? Disable racials in PVP.
Why do you not just implement cross faction arena already then? That would literally solve all the issues currently.

Just make up some lore BS about us fighting for "the amusement of the ogres" in their Colosseum. I mean we already fight our own faction, so fighting alongside the other doesn't seem like an issue.
@ Everyone Who Suggests Top-End Players went Human for cosmetics.

No. TMorph.
Giving undead the human racial would be stale. The biggest racial problems are the orc and human racials. Humans have an amazing racial, as stated, works the same way as an trinket. Giving undead this racial would really help, and I feel like there would be an outrage from the players by being so lame with racials. Right now, I can think of two possible solutions

1) Make all racial abilities have a longer cooldown.
This means instead of all racial abilities having a 2 minute cooldown, it has all racials from all races a longer cooldown, something like 2.5 or 3 minutes. This would have people who decide to play humans choose between more damage or less downtime on loss of control effects.
2) Fix the orc racial.
How would this effect human racials? Well, think about it, Humans have their ability to have 2 dps trinkets instead of a dps trinket and a loss of control trinket. Now say, orcs were to get their racial buffed, so their trinket and racial combination would be something like: DPS trinket, freedom trinket, DPS racial(almost equal to a dps trinket, scales with ilvl or attack/spell power). A humans combo would look like: DPS trinket, DPS trinket, EMFH. These two races would completely match each other in damage capability because of this, and I think this of all things should be implemented, seeing as the orc racial is about useless right now.
04/03/2015 10:28 AMPosted by Bashed
Put it this way, if someone at BlizzCon picks a non-Human class for one that is eligible to be so, then MAYBE the community got it wrong, but I am pretty damn sure that North Korea would broadcast "The Interview" before that day comes.


great funny movie, James Franco made it.
All they have to do is give a horde race the human racial to fix this problem, since day 1. Why they wont is obvious: money. Get those transfers blizz. What a waste of a wall of blue text.
If perceptions of racials is the problem for faction imbalance, the solution is clear as day. Turn off racials in PvP!
But really, just make the orc racial act like a dps trinket.
04/02/2015 06:06 PMPosted by Lore
Now, you could make the argument that all of those players independently decided that Alliance racials were buffed so much that they should faction transfer. It's certainly possible. I think that at least some number of those players weren't faction transferring over racials, though. I think they were faction transferring because their friends and teammates were.
It was most likely a domino effect. First the top-end players transferred because they wanted the better racials, and then from there everyone else transferred as well whether to keep-up with the Joneses, or to follow all their friends who were transferring, or any reason in between.

All-in-all, you guys keep beating this "people want to play with their friends" glockenspiel, meanwhile ignoring the fact that the vast majority of players who switched to Alliance are playing the same race. You attribute the mass change to be because of a change to stoneform, yet looking at any stats site will reveal that everyone is playing Human. Why? Because it's a no brainer. Do I play as a race that needs to pick between double-DPS trinks vs escape trink, or do I play as the race that can have both?

My problem isn't that Alliance are dominating the upper tiers of rated PvP. My problem is that because Alliance are dominating the upper tiers with a racial that effectively gives most classes a third trinket slot, it's harder for Horde players on the same skill-level to compete. Frankly, I wish you guys would just admit that racials need to be disabled in ranked PvP.

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