Lore, I have an idea.

Arenas
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Sounds good ill add ya next time I'm on
04/02/2015 04:07 PMPosted by Neaz
Aka, it was a PvP change.


Aka, it was a PvP ret nerf.

fixed.. to the ground
04/02/2015 03:55 PMPosted by Lore

However, the potential (and minor at most) damage loss in PvP wasn't really the point of the change. Tranq Shot was nerfed because the design team felt that Tranq Shot was too powerful.


Lore, could you please clarify how the developers came to this decision, but didn't nerf Purge, Dispel Magic, or Spellsteal?
Lore is the only Blue on these forums that isn't arrogant, rude, or condescending. Lore is also articulate and thorough. I like Lore. The rest, however I care less for.
04/02/2015 04:09 PMPosted by Lore
04/02/2015 04:04 PMPosted by Gimolos
Really, you're claiming they nerfed tranq shot for PVE reasons? It was already a lost global and 20 focus of lost dps. If PVE is truly why it was nerfed it was a nonsensical change to an already balanced ability.

Er, no. It was nerfed primarily because the designers felt it was too easy for Hunters to dispel in PvP. It just wasn't nerfed for damage reasons.

It does have an extremely minor effect in PvE, but that wasn't the focus (pun not intended).


If by "extremely minor effect in PvE", you mean 'no longer worth having on my bar if it costs 50 focus' - then you are correct (and NO... I'm not using the Glyph - I am not wasting a major glyph slot as a BM Hunter on Tranq Shot for PvE).

Look, I used to Tranq Shot a LOT in PvE - now, I just let another class that have a lower cost handle that. Why the designers felt that this was a good implementation is really beyond me. Why they didn't just go the route of making the CD for Tranq Shot 10 seconds baseline and revamping the Glyph so that it removed the CD but cost XX focus would have been a more balanced approach. For those playing SV, how is half of your resource going to be worth it? Yeah, there's a glyph for that. But I thought the designers didn't want "mandatory" glyphs (?).
04/02/2015 04:09 PMPosted by Fancybrandon
04/02/2015 04:04 PMPosted by Gimolos
Really, you're claiming they nerfed tranq shot for PVE reasons? It was already a lost global and 20 focus of lost dps. If PVE is truly why it was nerfed it was a nonsensical change to an already balanced ability. and cornered was NEVER a PVE issue since it was seldom even active. That nerf was 100% due to pvpers dismissing the pet with no gear and giving their pet that boost in arenas.


Tranq shot isn't used in PVE....

Anything that needs to be dispelled should be handled by your rshaman/disc priest. (Find me a raiding guild that doesn't have both of these classes and i'll show you a real life unicorn)


Well, that's completely false because I used to Tranq Shot all the time on PvE (prior to the Focus cost increase).
My hope and fantasy is Blizzard copies Guild Wars 2 style PvP.
Structured. A level 1 walks in with the *same* gear as a max level. Transmog is all you earn.
No more gear climb -- it's *pure* skill based.

Heck, 3's bg's matches are fun because you stay with your group until you leave. Win a match? Run another!

I'd LOVE to see that in WoW. You'd build a lot of friends.
04/02/2015 04:09 PMPosted by Lore
04/02/2015 04:04 PMPosted by Gimolos
Really, you're claiming they nerfed tranq shot for PVE reasons? It was already a lost global and 20 focus of lost dps. If PVE is truly why it was nerfed it was a nonsensical change to an already balanced ability.

Er, no. It was nerfed primarily because the designers felt it was too easy for Hunters to dispel in PvP. It just wasn't nerfed for damage reasons.

It does have an extremely minor effect in PvE, but that wasn't the focus (pun not intended).

So let me get this straight.

Tranq shot was too 'easy' to use in PvP (which was the same reason multi-shot was once nerfed. Blizz thought it was too 'easy' to use. Ignore numbers and tuning, it was too 'easy'), so you made it borderline unusable? Tranq shot is not about being 'easy', its about getting good RNG and actually dispelling what you need to dispel, instead of trash buffs, for example a disc priest could pop a power word: shield or a clarity of will. However they would also have power word: fortitude on them, as well as whatever other stat buffs their teammates are providing, and reapplying these buffs only costs a global, meanwhile tranq shot costs a global and half our focus pool. Not to mention other trash buffs such as borrowed time and divine aegis. I've done arenas where I literally had to cast tranq shot 4 or 5 times before actually dispelling the thing that needs dispelled. Now, not only does only 2 dispels consume my entire focus pool but depending on RNG those 2 dispels might not even dispel what needs dispelling! Before it was just a matter of RNG determining how much focus went into dispelling a certain something. If you got really lucky you could get it on the first dispel and it would cost 20 focus, and if you got unlucky it would take a few more globals and cost maybe 80 or 100 focus. But now being unlucky means it costs 100 focus and you don't even dispel it!

Nerfing tranq shot is one thing, but you've made it basically unusable. I don't see why we should be spending a combination of a lot more globals and resource just to attempt to dispel a buff than the opposing player did to apply the buff in the first place! It could take up to 8 or 9 seconds just to dispel a power word: shield now, because of tranq shot dispelling trash buffs and all the cobra shots that we have to cast to get enough focus to use tranq shot again.

Like I said, nerfing it is one thing but you've made it practically unusable in PvP and you have made the glyph a necessity for PvE if we want to dispel anything at all!

What about spellsteal? A mage can use that 5 times in a row without having to regain resource, and they steal the buffs to apply to themselves. Since the resource cost apparently isn't important, why isn't spellsteal being nerfed to be 50% or more of a mage's mana pool? Not only is it just as easy as tranq shot but it also grants the mage the buffs that they dispel. Which means they even gain positive effects from the trash buffs, possibly gaining stat buffs that they couldn't have gained normally.

Then of course lets not forget about shamans and purge.

Also, no, the effect in PvE is not minor. On fights where dispelling is actually a thing, hunters are either required to take the glyph or they simply don't dispel at all. Our raid leader has even stopped mentioning hunters as a class that 'needs to dispel something'. They just tell the shamans and mages to get it because they can spam it with no cooldown and it costs them a resource that they don't really use.
We've gone down a rabbit hole, but, since we're down here...
04/02/2015 04:09 PMPosted by Lore
04/02/2015 04:04 PMPosted by Gimolos
Really, you're claiming they nerfed tranq shot for PVE reasons? It was already a lost global and 20 focus of lost dps. If PVE is truly why it was nerfed it was a nonsensical change to an already balanced ability.

Er, no. It was nerfed primarily because the designers felt it was too easy for Hunters to dispel in PvP. It just wasn't nerfed for damage reasons.

It does have an extremely minor effect in PvE, but that wasn't the focus (pun not intended).
The nerf was a nuisance in PvE. It caused me to fail at tranq-ing Darmac until I figured out what was going on, and then I had to take a glyph for it just for the power to be usable. The change may have been designed with PVP in mind, but it had ramifications for PVE that could have been entirely avoided with just a bit more thought (e.g. make tranqing in PvP put the power on CD for X sec or make it cost an additional 30 focus when dispelling from a PvP target). Any change for PvP that also affects PvE is going to annoy a section of your player-base for no good reason. Changes, even 'extremely minor' ones, are annoying if they force us to relearn how to play. So, do the devs want to do their job, or do they want to do their job right?

If you have to nerf PvP, do it... but just nerf pvp. Same goes for nerfing PvE. This has been a consistent call from the player base for a long time, and it's getting embarrassing for Blizzard that they haven't picked up on it yet.
04/03/2015 09:45 AMPosted by Avaricex
PSA: This isn't a hunter thread.

PSA 2: go away
It's highlighted on the list of "latest blizzard posts." Fair game now!
04/03/2015 09:49 AMPosted by Avaricex
This is the arena forums. Take your PVE complaints to an appropriate forum for that, please.

PvP is just a branch off of PvE anyway. Not like there are no PvP posts in the damage dealing forums anyway.

PvE being nerfed for the sake of PvP needs to stop. Tired of PvP negatively affecting PvE. Now I either have lost my dispel or am forced into a glyph slot because of PvP, and that shouldn't be a thing.
04/03/2015 09:52 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
PvP is just a branch off of PvE anyway. Not like there are no PvP posts in the damage dealing forums anyway.

PvE being nerfed for the sake of PvP needs to stop. Tired of PvP negatively affecting PvE. Now I either have lost my dispel or am forced into a glyph slot because of PvP, and that shouldn't be a thing.


pls
04/03/2015 09:52 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
04/03/2015 09:49 AMPosted by Avaricex
This is the arena forums. Take your PVE complaints to an appropriate forum for that, please.

PvP is just a branch off of PvE anyway. Not like there are no PvP posts in the damage dealing forums anyway.

PvE being nerfed for the sake of PvP needs to stop. Tired of PvP negatively affecting PvE. Now I either have lost my dispel or am forced into a glyph slot because of PvP, and that shouldn't be a thing.


Agreed PVP balance should never impact PVE

Also PVP has become such a unbalanced and Bot crazy mess. I don't know why blizzard puts up with it they should start phasing it out.
04/03/2015 09:52 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
PvP is just a branch off of PvE anyway. Not like there are no PvP posts in the damage dealing forums anyway.

PvE being nerfed for the sake of PvP needs to stop. Tired of PvP negatively affecting PvE. Now I either have lost my dispel or am forced into a glyph slot because of PvP, and that shouldn't be a thing.


You do know that Pve has affected Pvp more then Pvp has affected pve right? for years now changes would be made to pve that would break pvp and the Devs would basically say "Shut up pvp guy".

Everyone wants the two to be separate and the ones that have been affected the most have been the Pvpers.

04/03/2015 10:20 AMPosted by Gingadandy
Agreed PVP balance should never impact PVE

Also PVP has become such a unbalanced and Bot crazy mess. I don't know why blizzard puts up with it they should start phasing it out.


Please keep this ignorant mess out of the pvp forums thank you.
Lore,

So why not simply seperate PVE and PVP damage/healing?

Some good examples this xpac:

1) WW monk doing too much dmg in PVE compared to other players, while still underperforming in PVP.

WW had received nerfs to dmg for PVE that adversely effected them in PVP

2) Frost DKs doing very good dmg in PVP (with excellent survivability), while falling behind in PVE as gear progresses.

If frost dmg is increased to keep them on par in PVE, it adversely effects PVP

In both of these examples, would it not be easier to balance if the dmg was seperated? Both areas of the game are vastly different, and require entirely different (and sometimes opposing) tuning changes to achieve balance between specs.

Are there any problems you can foresee with this, or issues the design team has with this idea? If so, what are they?
04/03/2015 10:20 AMPosted by Gingadandy
Agreed PVP balance should never impact PVE

Also PVP has become such a unbalanced and Bot crazy mess. I don't know why blizzard puts up with it they should start phasing it out.


So I see a lot of pve heads are coming to the arena threads, so I'll poke back.

When I went to the HB forums you know what I saw more than anything else? "I have a raid in thirty minutes and honorbuddy is down."

At least within pvp everything isn't always the same. I've known almost entire raid teams that were botted to some degree. You're tired of your content being effected by pvp? Guess what? We're tired of of our mini game being impacted by a bunch of whiny nerds that make up the pve player base.

Get at me, salty dragon slaying losers.
While coming off a little hostile, Brancia is right, i have seen some of "those" forums and they are alot of people using botting for raids, i have talked to friends who raid and they said some groups required the players to have kickbots to help them progress.

So no, its not just a Pvp issue, it also happens alot in pve and it would probably be harder to catch because bosses and mobs don't complain on forums when they are getting insta kicked.

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