The State of the Game - and Ideas to Fix it

Arenas
Prev 1 16 17 18 62 Next
I seem to remember Ghost Crawler posting of the forums, but I can't think of a single post off the top of my head from Holinka.

Why is that the case? I'm sorry, but twitter doesn't cut it.
Without going too in depth, here are changes I'd like to see personally:

1. Damage inside cooldowns significantly lowered, damage outside cooldowns increased

2. Every CC prevention ability should not be usable while already under the effects of the CC. Ex: warrior berserker rage, DK IBF and DG, paladin aura mastery and freedom (referring to freedom while stunned to reduce duration). Tremor totem change is fantastic and there are other good ones like cloak of shadows, deterrence, evasion, AMS etc, but every other similar ability should have the same treatment. It helps to increase the skill cap of the classes who have those changes, while still making the abilities useful even when not used absolutely perfectly.

3. Less instant pseudo-interrupts like stuns, incapacitates, etc. The dumbest, most frustrating thing you can ever experience on a caster is faking all 3 of the other teams kicks, then having every cast afterwards repeatedly stopped by different forms of instant CC until the kicks are back off cooldown again. Fake casting is extremely unrewarding now because of it.

4. No more ability pruning. It's pretty obvious that less abilities = less options to play your character = lower skill cap. Personally I'd like to see different levels for spells come back because that significantly raised the skill cap for most classes without affecting PvE at all. Things like mages using level 1 frostbolt to slow people with the fast cast, spamming low mana cost buffs to counter purge spam etc was great, it increased the complexity of the game for more skilled players while more casual PvPers really didn't have to worry about it at all.

5. Everyone with mana should actually have to worry about their mana. Finding good times to drink was very important in previous expansions, but now every class basically has infinite mana which again, lowers the skill cap for classes with mana. I've had to drink no more than a dozen times on all my healers combined this entire expansion so far, where in previous ones people would sometimes have to drink that much in a single match.

6. Every melee (except DKs) has far too much mobility. Ferals being able to shift everything is dumb, burst of speed shouldn't exist, warrior gap closing is dumb etc. Classes like warlocks and priests have no possible way to escape from melee in general (giving them a slow would be a start).
It has been pointed out before that damage shoukd be more sustained for all dps classes with burst opportunities, instead of low sustained damage with ridiculous burst potential. This would add more pressure to healers and add more tension to games. The burst potential wouldn't even have to come from popping cooldowns, but as you pointed out Lore, it coukd be from a Warrior's Collosus Smash, a Monk's Rising Sun Kick, a Shaman's Unleash Elements, etc. That way the burst isn't completely predictable.

A huge problem I have with Blizzard's design philosophy is that it is always a " We won't fix it this patch, but we will address it next expansion". So, we wait and it isn't addressed in the following expansion either. If it is not working how it shoukd, be more aggressive and change it. I want to see a designer who goes, "We are going to make consistent, small changes until we get it to where we want it. Even if we adjust it every two weeks."

Stop with this subtle we will change it eventually approach.
Very well written post.
05/04/2015 04:55 PMPosted by Lore
I also think it's dangerous to make the argument that niche options add a skill element. There was an example given of a Priest using Mind Soothe to eat Spell Reflect. That's definitely a good trick that a skilled player would use, but I would stop to question what exactly it is about that trick that makes it stand out.

At least in my opinion, the difficult part in that example is recognizing that Spell Reflect is active and quickly casting something unimportant. Mind Soothe made an obvious choice, when it was available. Now that it isn't, you have to think about the potential repercussions of whatever spell you cast being reflected. Doesn't that actually add more skill to dealing with Spell Reflect? Again, honest question.


You raise a great point, I think what you're basically asking is: what makes an action skilled?

This post might get pretty philosophical, but discussion is good nonetheless.

I think the Mind Soothe example is fine, so let's start with that.

From the Priest's view, the first element comes down to anticipation and knowledge. That is, the priest has a strong enough knowledge of his own class, the warrior class, and the game situation to predict that the warrior might use spell reflect to stop an incoming cast.

The next part comes down to reaction time. The priest must recognize that the warrior has used spell reflect, and stop their cast. Anticipation and reaction go hand in hand: if the priest expects the spell reflect, he will be more tentative and alert to the possibility of the warrior using spell reflect. If the priest has insanely quick reaction time, he doesn't have to have as much anticipation and can react as soon as the buff goes up.

Next comes the decision: what does the priest do now that the warrior has spell reflect up?

In a world in which Mind Soothe existed, the best option would be to use it to eat the reflect. I'd argue this is skilled because 1)it requires the priest to have a thorough knowledge of his abilities and how they are used 2)would have Mind Soothe keybound and readily accessible 3) would be able to use their knowledge, experience, and preparation, and use the spell quickly. This is unique to Mind Soothe and "nice abilities" because they are used in so few situations.

A less skilled facing the same choice may 1)not know about Mind soothe 2)not have it keybound/on action bars 3)might choose another ability to eat spell reflect with 4)may not be able to react quickly enough.

This raises a pretty fundamental issue: does having to hit more keybinds mean more skill? Again, there is a happy medium. It's hard to have skilled play if everyone has 3 keybinds, and it would be ridiculously clunky if everyone had 300. I do think however, reserving a few keybinds for such nice abilities would be nice.

Again, I think this resonates perfectly with Blizzard's current mantra of "easy to learn, hard to master". A lesser player not having Mind Soothe bound is certainly not significantly held back from succeeding, but a more skilled player having it "mastered" would be able to differentiate themselves by making the optimal choice. At the very top levels of play it should be both the macro (strategy, what target to pick, gearing, spec, etc. ) and the micro (global to global decisions like this) determining the outcomes of games.

In a world without Mind Soothe however, the Priest may be a faced with a harder choice:

1) Do nothing, wait until the spell reflect fades
2) Use another spell (SW:P, Mind Blast, VT, etc.), each with its own downsides

If the best response in most situations is to do nothing, is that a good thing? Sure, it would still allow differentiation among players of varying skill; in the sense that a less skilled player may choose a suboptimal response and use an ability that will hurt them, but a more skilled player would choose the best option.

We can break it down: knowledge (of the situation, of classes, etc. etc.), anticipation, reaction time (keybindings tied into this), and ultimately selecting the best of the available options could be what is could be considered skilled. I think this example applies to many of the niche abilities. I would argue that having a thorough mastery of what your class is capable in relation to the other classes in a given situation is something that should be encouraged.

Ultimately, though, it comes down to not having counter play. With this example and many others, the best option may honestly be do nothing. I think cultivating a game environment in which the best response to a certain situation is: do nothing, is extremely boring and dangerous for the game.
05/04/2015 04:55 PMPosted by Lore
This was a very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to put this together, as it obviously took a lot of work. I'll try to respond to what I can.

Regarding pruning: we actually see a lot of conflicting feedback here, even in this thread. Players want their CC effects back (even niche ones like Scare Beast), but feel that the game has too much CC. Or they want burst damage toned down, but want us to give back abilities that contribute to burst (such as Colossus Smash for Fury).

For example, this thread makes the argument that, due to pruning, players don't have enough options to respond to something another player is doing, which leads to predictable gameplay. It also makes the argument that classes have too many defensive cooldowns, too much mobility, too many CC breaks, and too many interrupts. Don't those two arguments contradict each other? If not, why don't they? Honest question; if I'm just missing something here, I want to know about it.

Don't get me wrong -- we're very open to feedback about which abilities you feel shouldn't have pruned, and what you feel is missing from your class. Just be aware that if you feel like you're missing another CC or defensive ability, you're essentially asking for us to put more of those in the game.

I also think it's dangerous to make the argument that niche options add a skill element. There was an example given of a Priest using Mind Soothe to eat Spell Reflect. That's definitely a good trick that a skilled player would use, but I would stop to question what exactly it is about that trick that makes it stand out.

At least in my opinion, the difficult part in that example is recognizing that Spell Reflect is active and quickly casting something unimportant. Mind Soothe made an obvious choice, when it was available. Now that it isn't, you have to think about the potential repercussions of whatever spell you cast being reflected. Doesn't that actually add more skill to dealing with Spell Reflect? Again, honest question.

I'll also stress the importance of remembering that there are a lot of people who play this game, with a lot of different playstyles, in a lot of different communities and sub-communities. That's not just a PvE vs PvP thing -- it happens even within the PvP community. While a multi-rank 1 Gladiator might like having a few niche abilities they only use in specific circumstances, an entry-level PvP'er could be turned off by having to learn so much about other classes they've never played. A nerf to a class that's over-performing in Arenas could make them completely undesirable in RBG's. The challenge to our designers is in finding ways to accommodate all of those players as much as possible, which often means making hard decisions to make the game better for one group but potentially less enjoyable for another.

Now, having said all of that, let me try to get one final point across: we agree that PvP in WoD is not the best it could be. We think we made a lot of great changes, and we've seen a lot more people trying out PvP in this season, but there were certainly a few missteps. Perhaps more importantly, there were some very valuable lessons learned for the future.

I wouldn't expect any huge, game-redefining changes in Patch 6.2, but that doesn't mean we aren't listening and acting on your feedback, and taking it to heart as we make our plans for what comes next.


Lore you should be a politician. You answer questions without answering them directly. Also, you completely missed the important topics of discussion. You wrote an entire page worth of words without saying anything. That is quite an accomplishment. That being said, it is now obvious to me that you have never played this game a day in your life. You're only arguing from estimated logic in your head and replying with logical retorts.

I would go through your wall of non-answering text to reply, but I know I'd just get the same non-answering bull !@#$ you spout out the first time.

By the way you missed the most important part of the entire post and that's the fact that SUSTAIN DAMAGE IS TOO LOW AND BURST DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH AND THAT PASSIVE/REACTIVE ABILITIES NEED TO BE PROACTIVE ONES. These are the most important topics and the only ones that really matter, but you don't seem to understand that because YOU DONT PLAY THE %^-*ING GAME!
05/04/2015 08:57 PMPosted by Metashatter
Lore does play the game, but he's asking for clarification on some of the points.


He doesn't play the game, it's obviously in his need for clarification. Anyway, after Lore's response I have been confirmed in my suspicions that I should give up on this game. Soxo has given them a full report on everything that is wrong in current PVP gameplay. Rather than fixing the problems, they would just prefer to play politician and try to debate their way out of having to make any meaningful change.

I'm literally just going to go play on a private server of some sort instead. This game has been !@#$ed into the ground and it will never be what it was.
Congrats OP, your thread made front page on the WoW subreddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/34ssbh/great_explanation_and_suggestions_for_the_state/
Do what Runescape did and roll the game back to Cata.
unfortunately recent players have no idea what this game was and why it was so fun. bring the world back to warcraft.
I would really like a more detailed explanation on Blizzards stance on these issues. The concerns raised and the perspective illustrated by Soxo describes many fundamental issues that cannot be glossed over.

It has became more apparent to me as this thread grows that there have been a lot of knowledgeable players who have been a long for the ride with me as the core concepts of pvp and design have eroded or diminished.

I can't help but feel the importance of the topic at hand, and the level at which this discussion is taking place warrants a much more thorough, concise and expert response. It's outstanding to see a community be so in the right, and so well represented.

I'd like to know what the top level decision makers and lead designers have to say, in their own words.

Perhaps that's unrealistic, I don't know. But I do think there are a lot of reasonable people that have spent many years of their life playing this game that would be curious about what they have to say.
Good luck to you all getting another response. Much like Blizzard's other responses this is a one and done. They establish their dominance/position and then peace out and never acknowledge you again. I'm going to play on private server, or play league of legends and CS:GO. There's so many better games out there now that they have !@#$ed this one.
05/04/2015 04:55 PMPosted by Lore
I wouldn't expect any huge, game-redefining changes in Patch 6.2, but that doesn't mean we aren't listening and acting on your feedback, and taking it to heart as we make our plans for what comes next.


Why no huge fixes??? There should've been huge fixes before this expansion went live. However, since there weren't, there's no time like the present. You wrecked a ton of classes, and there's no reason to wait years to fix them.
I don't care If I have 20 abilities or less as long as they're unique and fun. Possibly implement moves that vary per situation and have more then one purpose.
05/04/2015 04:59 PMPosted by Velca
rip wws mws priests and ele/enh shamans


>yfw silence is a wind shear with 4x the cooldown, less duration and puts other silence's on diminishing return.

also this thread is god tier, I hope blizzard takes the time to read this and addresses some of the most important issues addressed in the OP. it's very distressing that blizzard has been given so many great suggestions by players who are both high rated/have played the game for a long time to fix the state of PvP but haven't been proactive enough to employ them. this thread is evidence that the community still cares about the game and collectively concur that it's time for blizzard to make some:

game-redefining changes
Why would you cast soothe? Wouldn't you nearly always prefer to cast swp since it gives you 15 seconds of free cc breakage from poly sap blind trap etc.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum