How has 20 man mythic, affected your guild?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Hello wow forums . I have been a semi-hardcore raider since wrath, its the one thing in the game that keeps me and my friends playing. When blizzard first announced the change to only 20 man mythic, we were worried since we were a 10 man guild and recruiting 10 quality raiders on a medium population server (US-Ysera) is a big challenge, and so far this tier it has been, out guild is currently 3/7 mythic highmaul and 10/10 heroic blackrock. that has been our progression for the last month and a half. as we only have about 18 solid raiders, and recruiting is nearly impossible on our server, so our choices are just continue to farm heroic, server transfer or quit. We all really want to keep playing and raiding but farming heroic for months while waiting for new content is just so boring. I know blizzard made this change to make balancing fights easier, and remove the issue of not having every buff and ability in 10 mans, but overall I think this change has been pretty negative and has resulted in many players just leaving the game. so my question to you, is how has this change affected your guild? has the change been good, bad or no change really. Do you think blizzard should keep this system or change it?
A bunch of friends and I formed a guild when it was annouced that all the raids in WoD would be flex. This was great news to us, since we did the 10 man thing in Wrath and Cata, but hated the fact of having to rotate people in and out and always wondering if we'd have a good enough comp to do heroics back then.

With flex, that worry was gone. We had it so that people could come in and leave when they wanted, didn't matter to us.

So with about 16 people or so, we just fooled around until WoD came out. When it did, we were rusty (everyone but me took a break after Firelands came out). Took a while, but we got our mojo back, cleared heroic Highmaul with about 2-3 weeks before BRF. Right then I knew that heroic wasn't going to be enough because if BRF is the same way, we're going to be very bored for a long time just doing heroics.

We were on a crappy alliance pop cluster (Shattered Hand), and really, the only people we could get were friends of friends. Couldn't get anyone from another server. We were able to hit 22 people who could reliably show up, but some nights, we couldn't get 20.

After we killed Mythic Oregorger and Beastlord, I brought up the idea of server transferring since the recruiting was just bad. I thought most of the people would say no, since a lot of people don't want to spend more money on this game, but I think they all realized how boring it'd be just doing heroic in 3 hours a week and that'd be it. I'm sure most people would have unsubbed if that was the case.

So we transferred to Proudmoore at the beginning of the month, and now we have about 26ish people from just constantly looking for people. We've one shot Mythic Oregorger, killed Beastlord in 3 attempts (which we were failing hardcore on since our first kill) and had a 5-10% wipe on Mythic Gruul on our first week of raiding mythic.

I think the system is fine. The only thing I would change is maybe somehow making it x-realm, without apps being able to just stop showing up after a week or so.

And if you're on a crappy realm, take it from my guild, we all are happy we transferred. It's been huge for us. It's stupid that there are mega servers, but I'd rather just deal with it than trying to wait for Blizz to fix it.
My original guild 10H guild started recruiting at the end of SoO and we are now hovering around 21-22 raiders, while 16/17M (almost 17/17)

My second guild started to rebuild a few weeks ago, and in the last 7 weeks we went from 0/17M to 16/17M.
My first guild that was a 10 man did well and moved to the top of progression on our bad server then the Attendance Boss started to hurt us and finally we died.

Some players left the game and a few server transferred.

A few of us moved to the only other Alliance guild doing Mythics which was a former 25 man and I just found out they are server transferring.

So we have zero Mythic guilds left on Alliance side now leaving server transfer as the only option to keep raiding Mythic or stepping down to heroic modes.
20m Mythic has held my guild back quite a bit I would say. We prepared early on in SoO and had a group of about 23-25. Since then we have had almost near constant issues with attendance. Its not uncommon for us to only raid mythic for 1-2 hours in a week when we are supposed to raid up to 8 hours and sometimes we can't even step into mythic with more than 18 or so. Many of our long time players have taken a break from raiding after all this nonsense or unsubbed altogether.

In the end of siege my guild was in the top 1% of raiding guilds according to wowprogress placing us at us 224, this tier we are only in the top 7% so it has hit us quite hard.
We absorbed two other 10 man guilds at the same time to go 25 man before mythic SoO. We smashed that then smashed 20 man Siege. When we got to Highmaul we realized that a few of our recruits who had looked good in Siege were actually pretty bad, it took us a bit to sort that out.

When BRF came out we actually didn't have 20 people online for a single raid night for the first two weeks of mythic. Our first mythic kill was week 3 I believe. We ended up smashing the raid though and cleared it very quickly after that.

Overall the road to mythic was pretty rough but we got there in the end. I dont think it was the swap that killed so many guilds, it was a combination of the raids being fairly difficult and the recruitment pool being extremely small. Recruiting these days is a job, I literally spend time during my workday recruiting, it's absurd.
We've always been 25, so the mindset of going to 20 wasn't a big deal. It feels to me like we've seen way more player turnover this xpac, but it's possible that's just an "in the moment" thing, and looking back it'll be similar, idk.

Overall, personally, I think setting Mythic to fixed 20 and having every other difficulty as flex? Best change Blizz has ever made.
It's affecting every heroic raider because blizzard designed an incredibly difficult instance that most of us won't finish at all. The reason they did that is to prevent us being "done early" and thus longing for mythic content they can't give us (a bit less than 20m).

So I say most of the players in the game are affected by it. Last x-pac, they would have nerfed BRF considerably more then they had (although they had a lot more self-nerfing mechanisms).

Their design goal now is different: make the content so hard that most heroic guilds simply can't complete it before the next tier/expansion. We'll see that in hellfire. Heck, it will probably take a year for us to clear all the bosses, just to make sure they have time enough for their expansions.
Haha. My guild is more dead than the Clippers' season.

So no, it hasn't affected me at all.
05/18/2015 07:44 AMPosted by Demeia
Their design goal now is different: make the content so hard that most heroic guilds simply can't complete it before the next tier/expansion.
I assume by heroic you mean Mythic, as this thread is about Mythic? Anyway.

Tier 14: 532 guilds (10 and 25) killed Sha of Fear on heroic (Mythic) before ToT came out.

Tier 17: 347 guilds have killed Blackhand on Mythic.

Considering next patch is probably 2~ months away, seems fairly on track to be pretty much the same as MoP's first tier.
While having a fixed raid size of 20 is great I don't think it was worth the amount of guilds that were killed by it. I have been in 4 guilds this expansion, 3 of them were killed because we were constantly forced to raid mythic with 17-18 people each night. If blizzard wants to see more people continue to raid I really think they need to at least make it cross realm.
Some people quit, hard to say why some of them stopped. Every mythic raider retires someday, but we didn't lose a ton so we're largely unchanged other than we're slightly smaller than in MoP.

05/18/2015 02:26 PMPosted by Aleex
While having a fixed raid size of 20 is great I don't think it was worth the amount of guilds that were killed by it. I have been in 4 guilds this expansion, 3 of them were killed because we were constantly forced to raid mythic with 17-18 people each night. If blizzard wants to see more people continue to raid I really think they need to at least make it cross realm.


Interestingly enough, as already pointed out, the # of guilds to kill Blackhand is about on par to how many guilds killed past final bosses (outside of final bosses of an expac that last much longer) so to say all these guilds were killed off and its hurting the mythic community is a bit of a lie.

As far as the # of raiders still doing Mythic if you take T14 numbers 532 guilds x25 players is 13300 which is a fairly high estimate since that number was supposed to include 10 man guilds. At 20 man raid size we need 665 to tie that estimate meaning if the final tally of guild Blackhand kills comes in around 500 it's at least on par playerwise if not slightly higher.
after 5 months (into WoD) my guild changed it's raid times because it was making recruitment very difficult and the player we made those times to play with quit

and now i can't play with them

they are also probably willing to settle for heroic too, but i just dont feel like it's worth logging in to raid heroic only
It's really challenging to get 20 consistent people, my story looks like everyone else here. We had about 25~ people good to go but as time went on it became harder to recruit decent players that would stick it out. As it is now I've switched to my current guild because of some drama from my last one and the fact that we didn't have people to do more than heroic.

The attendance issue is really holding us back. It's just really demanding for a new person to join a guild on a server and maybe have to faction change just to raid. I know that blizzard is against mythic flex but the heroic flex seems well balanced and people pug it all the time, I don't see why mythic would be an issue. At this rate tho I'll be fully mythic geared from BRF before I kill all the bosses (from garrison missions.)
3rd guild so far this expac thats buckelling under the pressure to recruit and keep 20+ members.I don't think it's a problem with the actual raid size, I think it's more due to the fact that content has been "too hard" and "not rewarding" for the players in the guilds i've been in.

The fact is, Most of the player base seems to be not intrested in raiding anymore.They're more intrested in looting than raiding.
My first guild didn't have the chops for Mythic, let alone a stable 20. Horde side was pretty dead on that server anyway.

My second guild died 2 days after transferring for it, despite their godly roster. We had world parsing healers and DPS that were so mechanically sound it was amazing. We even had a consistently #1 parsing rogue in heroic BRF well before Mythic Blackhand dropped. Sadly, a whopping 7 of the core raiders were leaving and the raid leader quit. I considered following him to a new guild, but I opted to wait until I got a new job before doing so.

Now, my current guild consistently has 20 for Mythic (6/10M, soon to be 7/10M), and we're cutting it close some nights. Our biggest issue is our raid comp, nearly killing heroic Kromog with 0 boomkins, 0 rogues, 0 DK DPS, 1 Warrior, 1 Hunter, 1 Ret, 1 Feral Druid... You can see how that's a nasty comp to do a fight built entirely around Aspect of the Fox and strong AoE...
05/18/2015 04:11 PMPosted by Varlth
Some people quit, hard to say why some of them stopped. Every mythic raider retires someday, but we didn't lose a ton so we're largely unchanged other than we're slightly smaller than in MoP.

05/18/2015 02:26 PMPosted by Aleex
While having a fixed raid size of 20 is great I don't think it was worth the amount of guilds that were killed by it. I have been in 4 guilds this expansion, 3 of them were killed because we were constantly forced to raid mythic with 17-18 people each night. If blizzard wants to see more people continue to raid I really think they need to at least make it cross realm.


Interestingly enough, as already pointed out, the # of guilds to kill Blackhand is about on par to how many guilds killed past final bosses (outside of final bosses of an expac that last much longer) so to say all these guilds were killed off and its hurting the mythic community is a bit of a lie.

As far as the # of raiders still doing Mythic if you take T14 numbers 532 guilds x25 players is 13300 which is a fairly high estimate since that number was supposed to include 10 man guilds. At 20 man raid size we need 665 to tie that estimate meaning if the final tally of guild Blackhand kills comes in around 500 it's at least on par playerwise if not slightly higher.

Most of the guilds that were killed off weren't top notch raiding guilds that were planning on clearing each tier so using blackhand numbers to support your argument is pretty irrelevant. I don't understand why so many people fail to see that without good recruitment tools like x-realm raiding or being on a high pop realm that people cant get a full group of 20 to do mythic. I mean look at all these people here who are telling stories of what mythic has done to their guilds and yet somehow you don't seem to think that mythic raids are killing guilds.
05/18/2015 08:48 PMPosted by Aleex
I don't understand why so many people fail to see that without good recruitment tools like x-realm raiding or being on a high pop realm that people cant get a full group of 20 to do mythic. I mean look at all these people here who are telling stories of what mythic has done to their guilds and yet somehow you don't seem to think that mythic raids are killing guilds.
How is that any different from every expansion/tier cycle where people were failing to fill 25 and even 10m guilds?

Mythic restrictions are literally no different from before; "flex heroic" wasn't a thing in WotLK, in Cata, or in MoP. It was 10/25m period, if you had 8 or 23 people, you had less people than what was needed to run the raid, so often you couldn't (or at least you couldn't run progression).

inb4 "Well 25m could split off into 10 mans" - Literally the biggest sign to everyone that you have no idea how 25 mans work.
05/18/2015 08:48 PMPosted by Aleex
so using blackhand numbers to support your argument is pretty irrelevant.
If you go through WoWprog the numbers are pretty much the same when comparing the entire t14 and t17, not just blackhand. Actually Mythic participation has increased in WoD comparative to MoP's first tier, a lot of bosses in t14 (mainly HoF onwards) were killed less than BRF bosses after being released for the same amount of time.

05/18/2015 08:48 PMPosted by Aleex
good recruitment tools like x-realm raiding
The x-realm debate has been going on since it came out, I can list you dozens of reasons why x-realm mythic is a bad idea and why it would negatively effect you; it's one of those things that seems like a good idea until it is actually implemented, then it all turns to a big clusterfk.

05/18/2015 08:48 PMPosted by Aleex
I mean look at all these people here who are telling stories of what mythic has done to their guilds and yet somehow you don't seem to think that mythic raids are killing guilds.
Guilds drop like flies every time an expac is released, welcome to the first tier it isn't exactly a new phenomenon.
05/18/2015 08:48 PMPosted by Aleex
05/18/2015 04:11 PMPosted by Varlth
Some people quit, hard to say why some of them stopped. Every mythic raider retires someday, but we didn't lose a ton so we're largely unchanged other than we're slightly smaller than in MoP.

...

Interestingly enough, as already pointed out, the # of guilds to kill Blackhand is about on par to how many guilds killed past final bosses (outside of final bosses of an expac that last much longer) so to say all these guilds were killed off and its hurting the mythic community is a bit of a lie.

As far as the # of raiders still doing Mythic if you take T14 numbers 532 guilds x25 players is 13300 which is a fairly high estimate since that number was supposed to include 10 man guilds. At 20 man raid size we need 665 to tie that estimate meaning if the final tally of guild Blackhand kills comes in around 500 it's at least on par playerwise if not slightly higher.

. I mean look at all these people here who are telling stories of what mythic has done to their guilds and yet somehow you don't seem to think that mythic raids are killing guilds.


It's not mythic difficulty doing it to guilds.It's people valuing purples over actually sitting down, sorting their own !@#$ out and getting the job done destroying guilds.

I've been playing MMO's for 10 years give or take.The gimmee gimmee gimmee mentality has spread so much since I first started raiding.

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