How can people learn?

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01/07/2011 10:40 AMPosted by Ashtin
That's not taught by 15 year-old kids with zero wisdom, who avoid fail like a plague...not realizing it's the best teacher, because that's all they're being shouted at to not do.

That is the parents teaching them to act like that to other people. They aren't born like that.

It is not just the parents, but also the factor of who they hang out with, who they play with etcetera. In that case, World of Warcraft fails horrible as the large player base has a rotten attitude.
01/07/2011 10:25 AMPosted by Unf

I have never looked up a single 5 man encounter. 'Ok guys, first time here, lets make it smooth what do i need to know?" And it works everytime. Did I waste their time? Nope. Explain as you go. Why didn't I look it up? Its like reading how to do something, for me that doesn't work. Let me do it, I learn better that way.

Everyone's time is equally as valuable as the next persons. You just waited 40 minutes in line to get into a run with a new tank. The tank has never been here, and asks for explanations. You have 2 choices, be helpful knowing that at one time you didnt know everything yourself, or leave and wait another 40 minutes. And yes, I know you sit down on youtube everytime you get to a boss that you have never seen before. Right? "Guys hold on let me youtube this boss" Being the fact that its a RANDOM, Im sure thats how you do it. Or, let me guess, one evening you looked up every instance, every boss and watched all the fights making notes?

Nope, I went with my guildies through the runs to learn the fight ourselves. That's what we enjoy to do, but those are guildies, not pugs. If i'm pugging a place I don't know, I will alt-tab, bring up the place i'm running and give it a read through so I get a rough estimate of what's going on. After i've done that, I'll say, 'all right, first time here, done the reading up on the fights, anything extra complicated or confusing that isn't clear on the web'. Thing is, I don't do randoms unless i'm completely confident in myself knowing what's going on around me. Why do I hold off? Because I don't want to be a drain on a bunch of people that I don't know. That's why I have my guild with people I like to run with, and know that we all have the same mindset and want to figure the fights out on our own. We just make sure we aren't getting thrashed with a stranger with us, because like us, that person pays to play just the same as us.

The main problem I see here is a lot of people here aren't thinking that way. They are thinking about how much of a hassle it isn't for them, so therefore it isn't a hassle for anybody else. Guess what, since I don't like people showing up knowing nothing, I don't show up knowing nothing.

For me, I don't see a problem with me pulling for the tank, I know how to pass off all my agro, and dump it to the dps if need be. Thing is, I understand that tanks don't like this happening, SO I DONT DO IT! You guys are coming here and calling me an @!@#!*% because I don't like people showing up unprepared. Guess what, you guys are putting others in a position they don't want to be because somewhere in your head you think it's ok to put others on the spot like that. For the people who don't want to be polite, and call you out on it and boot you is what you deserve. Fortunately for all of you, a majority of the gamers just bite their lower lip, give you a rundown on what's going on just for the sake of starting the dungeon.

Just because people are giving you the information, doesn't always mean they want to. You are putting them in a position where they HAVE to do what you are asking of them. The real jerks in life are the ones who put others in situations they don't want to be in.

And no, i'm not forcing you to use the /lfd tool without doing research, that's all on you.

And I am 100% not against what you are saying. I am giving you the counter side of your argument. I have been incredibly successful doing it my way. I dont particularly cede the point of name calling and finger pointing that has been on and on through out this thread, its a bit.. E for everyone when this game is clearly T for teen.

The last part of what you say, in a way makes sense, but, if no one asks questions, what communication takes place in the pug? Hardly any. You want to think, or say, that people asking questions ruins your game play or hinders it in anyway, while you are entitled to your opinion, I feel thats what is wrong with the state of our community. People are shunned for asking the simplest things. What it really boils down to is, what can you live with? Can you live with only running with your guild? I know I can. Or, are you like the others that have to rely on the /lfd tool? Not everyone has the same set of expectations. Someone who plays this game casually may have never considered looking up a strat, or a more beneficial spec, or any way of improving themselves, and to them thats fine. When the more "hardcore" start looking down their noses at the lower skilled it sets a huge division in the player base which typically plays out here on the forums.

It wasnt so long ago that people could ask reasonable questions without the fear of being flamed. Every person out there has the ability to live hidden behind an avatar. Be whatever type of person they want to be. I would like to think most of us are decent individuals. When stopped on the street and asked for directions, do you feel imposed upon? Do you think this person is a jerk for asking? I would think not, but thats me.
if running dungeons is a priority i really recommend the op get a guild. even very casual guilds will have groups that know all the new dungeons pretty well. and guildies are much more likely to take time to explain them (especially over vent).

randoms were great in wrath when everyone could just lolz their way through all the content, but cata dungeons are back to where they were in tbc, and require thought and strategy, and heads up play.
I again ask you who say "You should do your research" to explain to me exactly how a person who is NEW TO THE GAME to have any idea that there are these resources out there?

Take a look through these forums: most of the people that come here to ask legitimate questions get flamed out of the forums. There isn't anything in the game to tell them the mechanics, so they can either learn from trial and error, or they can learn from someone assisting them.

I started playing at the beginning of TBC. I knew one person who played this game, and he was not a raider, not a hard-core player, and had only played a mage to that point. He was not really big on dungeons, he preferred questing and PvP. I had absolutely no idea that there were reference sites out there that would tell me how places worked. If I was lost on a quest, I would ask in general. Eventually, someone pointed out Thottbot to me, but I still had no idea what an addon was, I had no idea you could actually you-tube a boss fight. At that time, I didn't even know that I could go to the forums to read up on my class.

My first raid, Kara, I was not hit capped, I didn't know that drain life was not the best way to DPS on my warlock. I had leveled from 1-70 by myself, I had leveled demo, and I would wand things while my DoTs ticked away. I had no idea that was not the best way.

After my kara run, the other warlock in the group told me to go read the stickies on the forums, it would give me a lot of spec advice, gear advice, and rotation advice. During the run, he would tell me things that helped me do better during that run. It was only then that I started learning all the resources out there.

Now, my girlfriend started playing. She is not a hardcore gamer, the games she generally plays are things like Lego Harry Potter and Mario Star Galaxy. But she knew I loved to play, and wanted to be able to join. So, she made a mage, and we started leveling together. She was scared to death of doing a dungeon because she knew she wasn't good. Her first one, she accidentally hit need on a plate piece (you can do that in lower dungeons, apparently), and other people in the group got pissed at her (which I understand), and I explained (b/c I type faster) that she is new and hit the wrong button. They were very understanding, and we /rolled to see who would get it to sell (she won anyway lol).

Point is: when people are learning this game, give them some slack! Sure, if they are trying to do a heroic, they should have the experience by that point to know better. But for most of the game content, it doesn't take long to give a brief explanation. I'll give my example of my first time in HoO (normal). We were on the first boss, I had not been there. I said such, and the healer said "move out of his fire, he'll put a shield up, two DPS will go take it down, then interrupt his cast. TnS otherwise." It took a couple seconds, we succeeded.

Look back at the OP, he's even talking about people being pissed when he asks in low level dungeons. Again, did you seriously go look up places like SM when you were leveling?
Wow has had the worst community of any MMO for a very, very....well forever.

There are no useful Group/Pug bonuses that encourage players to help others. There are no bonus xp, bonus gear points, or ability bonus for making new friends (example: run 5 instances with a person who is on your friends list). There are not even any benefits in a Guild, other than Achievements, to playing with fellow members of your own guild.

There are a lot of MMO's that actually focus on developing a strong community and putting functionality in the game to encourage people to be nice to each other. Blizzard was never interested in doing this and, if anything, has made it even worse in Cata than it has been in any other expansion. I say try out some of the other excellent MMO games that are out. Many of them actually have very helpful/nice communities.
01/07/2011 12:18 AMPosted by Primitivism
Then you've never ventured outside your little bubble of guildmates and RL friends.

I never said that I haven't had poor in-game experiences. I have. After playing and interacting with hundreds if not thousands of players, it's inevitable. People have bad days. That doesn't mean, overall, my experiences haven't been positive.

To wax a bit philosophical: When our expectations aren't met, we're likely to remember how disappointed we felt in that moment. It's rare, though, for us to keep track of all those situations where everything went according to plan, where we killed all of a dungeon's bosses without much to-do. That's just human nature. The bad will often stick with us longer than the good or the neutral. While it's hard sometimes not to let the more grumpy players of Azeroth affect our judgment, it's important that we still try. Otherwise, we may end up painting a good person in a poor light or assuming that a community is "rotten to the core" when it isn't.

Just take a look this thread, for example:

There are still rad players out there who are kind, fun-loving, and helpful. And there're more of them than you might think.

My advice for the blue here: take a high-level (80+) character that can dual-spec into a (non-DPS) role you don't normally play and dual-spec them, then play about 50 PUGs using the dungeon finder. For best results, only play dungeons you are unfamiliar with. See what you think of the gaming community then.

There seems to be this perception that those of us who work at Blizzard either don't play the game we support or, if we do play, that we exist in some sort of bubble and only interact with other Blizzard employees. While I can't speak for everyone, most employees I know play on wildly different realms in totally separate guilds. And we represent a wide variety of players, too. Some of us prefer solo content. Some are of us PvP masters. Some of us are those people you run into who seem compelled to stand in fire. We're not above anyone. We play by the same mechanics and the same rules, and we have to overcome the same challenges as you do.

Speaking personally (and perhaps more to your point), my main is a healer that sometimes queues as DPS. In my time using LFD, I've wiped because I've run out of mana. I've been kicked from dungeons for not knowing a specific encounter. I've been berated for forgetting about a boss' frontal cone attack once. I've waited in long queues. I've also had amazing runs where players have worked together to learn a new encounter or taken the time to explain a specific mechanic to those who are having trouble.

I know it might be an easy thing to do, but don't assume that simply because we're blue we don't "get it." We do. And even though we may try to provide suggestions for how players may improve or overcome certain challenges, that doesn't mean we don't also value what you have to say and won't be relaying your concerns onto our designers. We do, and we will. In the meantime, we just want to make sure that players aren't limiting themselves arbitrarily and are exploring all the options available to them.
01/06/2011 7:49 PMPosted by Heartfire
In fact, I'd argue that most players are kind, fun-loving, helpful people

I wish they were, but let's be reasonable. This is World of Warcraft. There are a lot of bad apples. Not to say there are no kind people playing -- just that the jerks really seem to outnumber the nice ones.

The jerktard-to-niceguys ratio may not be what we want, but I refuse to let these reprobates bring me down. It does take a ton of energy (yes, mixed metaphor) to remain above the fray, but my play time and more importantly my sanity is worth the effort.

(Your mileage may vary. Some features and perspectives not available in all states. If your WoW state remains on for more than four hours, please consult a physician/psychiatrist/pastor as this may be an early sign of a jerktard condition.)
I heard of something that first started forty years ago.
It has evolved greatly the past fifteen years.
Its very good at finding information on nearly anything.

Whats that ? What could it be ? Why don't you use it to play WoW?

When you figure this out you'll know why people don't want to carry you in dungeons or whatever your sorry problems with this game are
01/07/2011 11:28 AMPosted by Unf
I again ask you who say "You should do your research" to explain to me exactly how a person who is NEW TO THE GAME to have any idea that there are these resources out there?

Google is hard right? When I first picked up my priest, what did I do. Went to google, and typed in 'Dwarf Priest world of warcraft' (Vanilla, fear ward etc.). There I learned about the different trees, and what was needed for each tree to work. Once I decided on what priest i wanted to be, I went back to google and typed 'Discipline Priest world of warcraft', and you know what, I had tons of pages with information for me to use.

My first MC run, what did I do? Yup, went to google and typed 'Molten Core World of Warcraft', and guess what? Yup, once again had websites with what I needed to know.

Amazing no?

it's so easy, a website can do it for you.
I could care less if I know a heroic, doing homework on raiding is where its at. If you only have one shot at something a week, why get pwnt by the first cleave the boss drops? As for heroic, in most encounters my dps reflex's kick in fast enough for me to avoid danger, but I have seen halls of org and grim batol videos. Now, I don't mind explaining fights if it means one less repair bill or one less wow sucks QQ. Just give cata a month and most people will know what they're doing. Instead of 4/5 people not knowing what to do, 1/5 wont know what to do.
Kevyne kinda missed the point there didn't you.

Let me help... you don't get much oppertunity to practise those skills outside of a dungeon, and a 40 minute que plus no tolerance for learning once you get in a dungeon severely limits your opertunity to learn from failure.

All better now?
Because I definitely dont know every single heroic after I was 85 for 6 hours. Regardless of how I got the knowledge, I can survive every heroic and tell others how to survive too. Ignorance isn't permanent.
01/07/2011 11:31 AMPosted by Lylirra
There seems to be this perception that those of us who work at Blizzard either don't play the game we support or, if we do play, that we exist in some sort of bubble and only interact with other Blizzard employees. While I can't speak for everyone, most employees I know play on wildly different realms in totally separate guilds. And we represent a wide variety of players, too. Some of us prefer solo content. Some are of us PvP masters. Some of us are those people you run into who seem compelled to stand in fire. We're not above anyone. We play by the same mechanics and the same rules, and we have to overcome the same challenges as you do.

I enjoyed reading your entire post, and the blue post about 2 hours ago that was about showing compassion to new players because it's some what thought provoking and brings the game masters into the part of the game that everyone experiences. My only problem is, I wish I could say that i've seen proof of playing with a GM, or something. I know that you guys keep your gaming info confidential because I wouldn't want to imagine what could happen if it was let out to the public. You would definitely need a server transfer and name change.

But what I would like, as well as a whole lot of other people is proof. Not just your word (although I wish I could just take you by it... I just can't), there are a lot of people that would just like proof of a GM playing with players without them knowing you were a GM, and treating you in a bad manner, or the bad experiences, and better yet the good experiences as well. Whether this required a name change or could be from a GM who has retired from their job as a Blizzard employee and/or stopped playing WoW from the player's perspective.

I like a lot of you blue's, but as much as I would love to just believe every word you guys say, there's a feeling in my gut that is itching for factual proof.
This expansion has been out long enough for people to learn the fight. How come I'm the one punished for doing the research on my own time? How come i'm the jerk because I'm not forcing anybody into a position they can't help. The person going into the dungeon knowing nothing has the choice to educate themselves. My only option is teach/wipe/kick. Well, i've gotten tired of teaching, and I don't like wiping as it's a waste of time that is preventable most of the time, so i'm left with kick. If the person says 'Give me a few minutes, gonna go read', i'm cool with that, i'll go for a smoke.

So you have chosen to be the problem instead of offering a solution.

News flash: There are still people who haven't picked up Cataclysm yet. Maybe they're parents who decided not to spend money on themselves during the holiday season, or they're kids who got it for christmas but didn't have time to play it until now (some winter camps start the day after chrismas, and kids going to those camps just got back Sunday night). Maybe they work retail so they've been working double-shifts and things have just started to settle down.

And no everyone learns by reading or watching. Some people only learn by doing -- and if you kick them for not having done it before, they'll never learn.
01/07/2011 10:45 AMPosted by Seliana

That isn't true in the slightest. before Cata was even released, there were people like me researching fights so we have a better handle on it when we get there. Then there are people that don't research fights. While it is all well and good for someone not to research the fights, you have to understand that they have had ample time to even look at what is coming up next and they chose not to. Doing so makes it harder for the group because in heroic fights, there are a lot of one shot mechanics that could have easily been avoided that would also prevent unneeded wiping. And while I don't mind wiping, what I do mind is someone being completely unwilling to do their homework.

I would not have kicked player one or player two in that situation, however, if they continually die to avoidable things, get others killed because of the same, and continually wipe the group, you're darn right I would kick them.

The thing you don't seem to understand about player 1 vs player 2 is that player 2 actually put in effort and I am more willing to work with someone that is at least willing to put in some effort because, in the end, this is a grouping game. And in a grouping game, it only stands to reason that people should be willing to put forth the effort to be an asset to the group, not a liability.

Yet it takes 20 seconds to explain to player 1, who is more then willing to learn with such an attitude, that it hardly undo's your time. In fact, I am willing to bet that player 1 was most likely better.

Just because you read up on something does not mean you will actually be good at it.

Nope but it does mean you will have a better understanding of it and less likely to die to avoidable things

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