How can people learn?

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01/06/2011 9:04 AMPosted by Bockale
You must have a terrible battlegroup. I have never heard of or seen anyone get booted in a leveling instance for not already knowing the fights. And I've been doing my share of leveling with alts.

I want to believe you're exaggerating.

While I am leveling this guy I have been booted a few times in dungeons for simply saying "I don't know this dungeon" or "this is my first time in here". Believe it or not it's happening, some people simply don't want to deal with someone that can't fly through a dungeon knowing it like the back of there hand.

Again I am talking about being kicked out before we moved to the first mob, prior to buffs being complete was booted because I didn't know the area.

Well isn't that good? You wouldn't want to group with people like that anyway.
I sincerely find LotRO's "solo instances" (skirmishes) one of it's best aspects. Wanna practice without wasting 4 (or 5 in LotRO) other people's time? Sure! They are also tuned in such a way that running the group version is much more efficient for gearing up than playing solo, although players can still get pretty much end game ready from just playing solo.
This is a great idea. I have "practiced" on the training dummies but in no way did that prepare me for a real time run. I have also watched the tankspot vids and PUH-LEASE for the love of God would they get someone other than that lispy-voice female to narrate them? It doesn't have to be a male voice, just a clear one, please, please, please.

Yes, I am one of those people to whom you can explain how to do something but until I'm actually going through the actions I won't *get* it.
___________________________________________________________________________ - Rated T for Minor Adult content - Rated M for Mature content

Oh, and as Cataclysm was engaged
I clenched my flask of endless rage.
Neither Rexxar nor Aegwin
Could break that dragon's chin.
And as the Barrens split right down in two
To mark the coming of his brood,
I saw Cho'Gal resurrect C'thun
The day the old-school died
~ Hopeslayer ~
01/06/2011 8:36 AMPosted by Beitris
I think that we are gravitating towards the need for a separation of player types beyond PvP, PvE, and RP.

The people who consider themselves "leet" and want only others who consider themselves the same should be on servers that can match them with the same, or tagged somehow to only match them in dungeon finder with the same, and for the rest of us we can enter the LFD with the understanding that if someone asks for help we help them.

I have no problem going in and maybe wiping, or helping someone with fight mechanics. I do however fear the day that I get ANOTHER random group that tell me to go kill myself because my GS is low. (yes it did happen, long ago)

I am sure that if you had that many "A" type personalities in one server it would implode and destroy all others in the vaccum it caused. It could possibly be the end of the world!
Videos. Play windowed, and watch videos for fights while you're dpsing/tanking/healing. Often just the sound is enough even to help you.

Cataclysm was a learning experience for everyone - so I prepared myself. No, I didn't look up every instance before I queued. But, I queued - and when I got the instance I looked it up. Personally, I love the Brits - and Yogscast has some of the best videos around for the 80-85 dungeons if you're looking for a quick rundown. ( They can be annoying at times, but for a 2 to 3 minute video explaining not only the bossfights, but giving you an overview 'introduction' to the instance itself was simply phenomenal for leveling.

People can learn by research. It's an online game, you can't expect to have your hands held. It can be aggravating to people who do take the time to read up on their class, or the dungeon you're about to run, to have to hold someone's hand through a dungeon and have to stop and explain every. single. aspect. of what they have grown to find trivial and a 'points run'.

People will be jerks, but if you do your part - or at least be honest from the getgo - you'll find people are more willing to help than you think. Also, guildies.
I'm sorry, but for the time investment required to actually PLAY this game, I'm not putting even more time into sitting on a website doing nothing and reading about it. I'll go through one or two PUG's until I find somebody that understands that this game is a social experience where you have to interact with other people and learn to work with them.

^ This, a thousand times this.

I'm playing a game, not researching a bloody term paper.

Rolling a tank has really shown me how wretched the community can be. Haven't completed an instance since SFK because of it (although I haven't queued much, admittedly).

How can people learn new dungeons when others are unwilling to teach? When I whine about 'solo dungeons' people respond; rightly so, with 'it's an MMO, you need to expect to depend on others for help.'

Ok, fine. However when I ask for help, tips, or say "Never been here before, tips/tricks/traps to worry about?" I get booted.

No matter what level, I've toons from 1-85 and the leet jerks are all the same.

"Be geared and know the fights."

It's bogus. How are people expected to progress when the ones able to help are total jerks?

I've had 7 friends/family quit because of this. I am not threatening such things, because I still have faith in the community. Why? Dunno, like punishment I guess. ;) However, if blizz wants real NOOB customers, they really need to do something about how the experienced players treat the new ones.

A prime example is my pally went from heals to tank. He's 84. I yell in trade "Tank for regular Wrath dungeons, new at it need practice." And I never get any helpful responses.

Hell, event this guy at 20, I was doing randoms and asked a question and got flack for being 'noob'. Well, yeah, really? what gave it away, the level 22 after my name? ppffsstt I had no heirloom gear, nor any other indication I had higher toons. just wanted to see how people treat noobs, and was/am VERY disappointed.

So, back to the ORIGINAL question. How are people expected to learn new content, roles, skills, if the ones that can help refuse to?

Please don't say 'join a guild' the LFD tool was supposed to EASE that, not make it more of a requirement.

However, if you do join an active guild that suits your play style, you generally can get help running instances. Especially important if you're doing heroics these days.

For example, my first heroic was Grim Batol (talk about your trial by fire) and we wiped at least two times on each boss. But through it all, they explained how the fights were supposed to go and we got through it. Now in a pug, that wouldn't happen. More often than not, people tend to rage quit and are generally not very helpful.

It may take some time, but if you find the right guild, you don't have to depend on the LFD for groups. Well, perhaps to fill an open slot, but other than that, there is a distinct advantage to running with a guild.

The internet has much better resources for learning than in game.

That's such a BS response. So now every time I get a new expansion I'm supposed to spend the first week sitting around on the internet reading about every battle in every dungeon and memorizing all the details? Hell no.

Then you and all those that think like you will suffer the /kick.
If you can't spend a few mins learning the bosses in a dungeon then I see no reason to spend a few mins to help you. I'll take an experienced or well read player with decent DPS, tanking or healing over an no experienced or not well versed player that has exceptional DPS, tanking or healing. Cause more then likly you will die resulting in no DPS, tanking or healing.

I'm not wasting a 45 in que on you cause you got your feeling hurt all because you didn't think to get a little knowledgeable on a boss.

You learn by doing and if the game is supposed to be the this big social experience everyone says it is then learning from others while doing makes a lot more sense than sitting alone reading websites to learn dungeons.

WRONG - You read the direction, rules or instructions before you take the trip, play the game or build the lego. This game is no different. Read the information given and make everyone's play time better. Even yours.

But people don't want to hear that because it would require them to actually BE social in-game and actually BE patient with people that are new to content and actually BE reasonably courteous to another player. The reason those people went on the internet to read about the instances and stuff in the first place is because they thought they were too leet to ask for help themselves.

I'm in a PUG - Thats about as social as anyone needs to be with total strangers. Do your job and do it well. Know the fights at least cause you read or watched them.

My patience ran out when you said in a heroic, "I don't know this fight will you explain it to me?" The answer is /kick Take some of that patience you are so abundant with and read the fights.

The reason "we people" on the internet read about them is cause we don't want to waste 4 other peoples time. My $15 a month does not equal their $60. Get your act together or get out.

I'm sorry, but for the time investment required to actually PLAY this game, I'm not putting even more time into sitting on a website doing nothing and reading about it. I'll go through one or two PUG's until I find somebody that understands that this game is a social experience where you have to interact with other people and learn to work with them.

If you don't want to put in the time then you will at times get sidelined. Most if not all raiding quildes expect this of their raiders.

Blizzard has designed heroics to be very similar to a raiding environment. Bosses do not hit all that hard but the encounters require you to be knowledgeable of whats going on. If you can't do at least that much. I doubt many people will have time for you.

You'll find your social ability going up when you make encounters easier and not harder cause you failed to know the content.

blizzard designed heroics to be unforgiving. The player base is now reflecting that as they should. The player base is being lead by blizzard example. There is little tolerance or players that fail to know content.

How many times has blizzard said encounter would be made easier if only the players were better. Pulling more DPS, better threat management, better healing or use of cooldowns. Knowing what to expect and GTFO of the fire!

Get your act together.
Blizz cannot police the community at large other than for reasons that infract the TOS. Sadly, being an ass hat is not one of those things. As many have already said, there are tones of resources on the internet that can make a bad player into a good one. Not making an effort to do this just makes you bad, period.

Even if you get into groups with different tactics than the vid(s) you watched, at least you will have a basic feel for the encounter; that is nothing but win.

There is a difference between just not knowing something during an encounter and just being bad. A bad player is one that could go AFK and the group would be better for it (yes, even healers). So, what would you rather be? A leech that gets to be belittled and insulted for being bad/lazy/dumb? Or would you like to play the game, have fun, and EARN better gear?

Sure, this is just a game… it should be fun. The people playing it should be nice and helpful. The reality is, this game mirrors society in many ways, and (as a whole) Society is one big ass hat – fact! And learning how to deal with that is part of growing up. In real life, you either get better at what you do to improve whatever it is that motivates you, or you leech off those who make that effort. Leeches are parasites.

Best way to handle jerks? Don’t get mad back, ever! Be calm and logical to them and soon you will see flames and smoke billowing out of every pour in their sad and lonely body… that is probably ugly… and fat… and smelly… or the problem is dealt with and you can move on 
I agree it's crap that no one can be bothered to help AND no one wants you to be able to progress without grouping with them. That said, it's pretty easy to research the fights before your first attempt. Just do that to make things easier on yourself; you don't want to have to rely on this crappy community for anything more than what's necessary.
its a online game.

its much more fun to ridicule then to teach.
I don’t even try to do dungeons anymore at any level. I just can’t stand all the rotten attitudes of the super elite people in their heirloom gear. People aren’t mean to me specifically every time (because I pretty much get it after the first time through), but there is always someone who is mean to basically everyone and they act like they can do the dungeon all by themselves. I don’t like watching other people get put down for being new to the game. This game would not go very far if only old members played and no new people joined. I think the new players deserve lots of respect and help. I wish everyone felt the same way I do.
01/06/2011 8:30 AMPosted by Greendeath

Please don't say 'join a guild' the LFD tool was supposed to EASE that, not make it more of a requirement.

Sorry but 'join a guild' is still valid.

LFD does not exist so that random strangers can teach you stuff. It's there so you can find groups for content easier.

Guilds work because the time I invest teaching you I get rewarded for because I will have a competent and useful guildie to run with, and when I need to learn new content or a new role I can rely on you to have my back.

LFD has none of that. I may get grouped with you once this year. There is no payback for me taking the time and the wipes to let you learn a new role or to learn fights for the first time. I might do it if I feel like it at the time, but there is no onus on me to help you out whatsoever.

You basically are demanding that everyone give to you, with you not giving anything back.
it would be nice if they actually did try to teach them, but the thing is, they all arent new, they are Wrathies. They come in, do what they did in wrath, die, get pissed, try again, die, group tries to help, he yells that he has Kingslayer and doesnt need help, dies again, rage quits, comes onto these forums, and says they are impossible because he/she couldn't do it with ease and get his loot. He will whine and moan as Blizzard learned to just sit there and laugh. WRATHIES NEED TO LEARN, NOT THE NEWBIES.
01/06/2011 9:38 AMPosted by Get

The internet has much better resources for learning than in game.

lol. Terrible reply.

To put it bluntly. You can read about sex all day long. Until you actually have sex, you're still a virgin. I'm not really sure how else to put this. Hope that cleared it up for ya.

To put it even more bluntly, all those porno magazines and skin flicks you read or watched before you actually lost your virginity at least gave you the idea of what to "possibly" do and expect.

I hope that analogy cleared it up for you.
mmmm I've found to be perfectly honest that the first instinct when someone is _really_ underperforming is to get annoyed.

If you actually stop for a minute and try to help though, often responses are positive and you feel better for it.

The problem comes down to this, if it's a problem with an encounter, I can explain it, either you pick up the fight after that or you don't. Fail enough times and you're probably getting the boot.

Many times, I just run into people who don't know how to play their class in heroics. I will say this. If you are pulling less than 4k dps, you don't know how to play your class, plain and simple. I've seen level 84's of all specs in all quest greens gear pull significantly more damage than that. (had an 84 druid last night doing a solid 8k in crucible, but maybe they're overpowered) There shouldn't be an excuse if you're in a heroic for doing so little.

When I run into these people I can't help them, I don't know how to play an afflict lock, or an enhance shaman, get a dps meter and spend 5 minutes with a target dummy to see how you're doing. Take a little more time to research what you're doing wrong if you find you're super low, it doesn't take much effort.

OP, I sympathize with a great deal of what you're saying. This game has a learning curve and that learning curve can be made much more difficult by asking for help and receiving only derision and scorn in return.

WoW has a difficult and divisive community. It always has. In many ways WoW's community is a reflection of our society because it is so large.

However, it is ultimately your responsibility to learn how to play this game when you're grouping with others. While I am generally willing to help people who ask for assistance, I do not have the time or energy to teach someone how to play unless I have some sort of personal, RL connection with them.

When you enter an instance as part of a group, your competence has a direct effect on the group's performance and the gaming experience of the other members. The unspoken social contract is that you will show up with at least a basic understanding of not only the game, but also your class and your role in the group. This is especially so if you have chosen a role that is particularly crucial to the group's success, such as the tank or healer.

There is so much information available about this game that it can be daunting at times. While the information could be made more readily available and easily digestable for new players, the fact remains that the information is out there. If you are unwilling to do your part and invest some of your time into learning on your own, then it hardly seems reasonable to expect others to invest some of their time into teaching you how to play.
Maybe Blizzard could add dungeon tool tips for new players?

On another Note DBM addon is a nice little feature when it comes to boss encounters. I'm kind of curious of what your asking them that they refuse to help you.
WoW has a difficult and divisive community. It always has. In many ways WoW's community is a reflection of our society because it is so large.

No, WoW's community is a reflection of the kinds of people that are so hardcore into it that they expect everybody else to be as well. The internet has ALWAYS been a tough landscape, it's not just WoW. The people that dominate message boards, most MMO's, and things like that don't have very good social skills, that's why they're in front of a computer 24/7, that's their world. That's where they feel powerful, that's where they rule. I knew that going into WoW and was prepared for it, but there's no excuse for people just being plain mean and rude because they know something that others don't. It would take them about the same amount of time and keystrokes to say "The thing about this fight is..." as it would to say "OMG you stupid noob go learn your class and read the damn fight, I'm so kicking you!!"

Just depends on what they want to put their energy into doing.
Whenever people get that kind of attitude with me in WoW, I just get this mental image of them:

Because that's what the majority of them are like anyway and I just go on my merry way laughing at them. =)

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