How can people learn?

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There seems to be a matter which has gone without comment. To be brief, the game has become a very poor learning environment.

I write "very poor" deliberately. An effective learning environment provides motivation and challenge, in combination with correct practices and information.

The game does provide motivation. The game, in the learning stage, provide neither challenge nor opportunities that reinforce correct practices and information.

Heroics do provide challenge, and do reinforcecorrect practices and information, but do so far too late in the learning process. (I welcome the challenge of heroics! But then, I as a player learned instances in Burning Crusade, and keenly felt the loss of challenge during Wrath. I had already learned many proper techniques.)

The game used to be different: There used to be hard quests. Many a time did my toon die from Swarmers in the barrens, or had to run away from wide jackal patrols. Instances, from Wailing Caverns on up did require crowd-control. I remember being knocked off the mountain in NW Nagrand during a fight against a quest boss, to my great shock and consternation.

But now, leveling is easy to the point of being broken. (I recently tried to level a Feral druid, and have stopped at level 36, mostly of boredom.) Because of the overuse of phasing and the near complete removal of group quests, player interaction -- which would lead to opportunities to practice cooperative behaviors -- is minimized.

These issues are inherent in the basic design of the game: Quite simply, the game is not designed to help players learn how to play well.

I think that that point should be emphasized.


I agree with Lylirra 100% - it really is all about how you choose to perceive the people you interact with. And it is a choice - one that anyone can make. When I find myself noticing more "bad" than "good" in people, I know it's time for me to make an attitude adjustment in myself. I start looking for the good - and soon I begin to feel happier and enjoy others more.

In response to the OP - my guild often runs 3-4 person groups and we have NEVER kicked out people that joined us through LFG. NEVER. If someone is new or just plain needs a little extra help with a fight, we do all we can to help them. If the group just can't complete the run we call it, but never point fingers at or blame anyone for the group's failure.

To me, it is completely unacceptable for a group of guildmates to behave in a way that besmirches their guild's reputation, and our GM will take swift and fast action against any member that treats others badly.

Being placed by LFG in a guild group should be one of the best and most positive ways for people to learn the fights. Since the guild members already know each others strengths and weaknesses, there is often room for a less experienced player to learn by making mistakes or taking a little time to get used to a mechanic. It truly saddens me to read how some people have been treated in guild-majority runs.

On a broader note, guilds could do a lot to help make the community more positive. If all guild leaders held their members accountable for bad behavior - much of the community negativity would vanish quickly. I challenge all GM's to require their members to be courteous and helpful and put punishments in place to deal with those who are not. Guilds have the power to truly turn their server community attitudes around.
Blizzard has tried to teach us to play our class. They have spent a lot of time with in-game tutorials, and they have redesigned the starting experience to bring us in slowly, one ability at a time.

However the problem is the crazy mechanics of the fights we endure. In the beginning, there were dragons who breathed fire and lashed with their tails. Now, there are bosses who trap you in place and one shot you if you don't escape. Who sees that coming? No one does, and that is why people like to group with people who know the fights.

I will go so far as to say that it is assumed by Blizzard that good players will go outside of WoW to research these fights in order to be successful. is my suggestion.

Please put a library or something in game where there are books players can read that describe all the dungeon/raid fights. Perhaps make quests to unlock the ability to read the books, maybe using a toned down single player version of the mechanic (like the Malygos dragon trainer). This can be an opportunity to inject lore and would be invaluable to "the normal people" who don't spend their time on the internet reading wow-wiki, wowhead, etc.

OKAY... guess what, i'm one of the people that will lose the plot at you or just kick you on the spot for going into a random and either not knowing your class, or the instance.

How is it my fault that you cannot perform in that instance?
How is it my job to teach you in my time? nothing in it for me. I work a fulltime job and this is my spare time, I refuse to teach what you could learn for yourself.

You Create this thread when you have no intention of listening to ppl saying what would help you as it means you would have to do something for yourself, you just want to QQ for being kicked as you would like to be carried.
People shouldn't have be polite and tell you everything you want to know when there are plenty of ways for you to get the information you want and need.. WoW players come here on there own free time for fun WE ARE NOT SLAVES, we help who we want to help, if you dont like it, learn to deal with it.

I started in early BC.
I was a noob and i'll admit it. I made friends along the way and they got me to help in there instance, I knew enough of my toon to know how to trap (without the help of trap laucher) and do my part there, and how to hit the marked targets.... pretty sure even a 5yr old would understand that {skull} has to die 1st.
After my 1st instance i was like that was cool but also bosses tactics would come in handy to know... So guess what i googled it !!!!! (its not hard...) I got a basic understanding of the bosses. And I didn't get flamed by ppl, as guess what i knew more than they did.
BC - I researched all instance and raid bosses.
Wrath - Again all
Cata - So far since i run with a mostly guild group, and 1 was in beta, we only had to read up on fights that we wiped on, so bout 5 bosses. but other than that its basic and easy if you have learnt how to move your arse if you are standing in stuff you are not supposted to.
Raid Bosses, Always. Plus read comments on other kills to see other handy tips they have.

I will Never sit there and give someone a step by step guide on how to play there toon or
how to move it out of fire. People should take responsability for themselves and Learn either by reading up or going in guild runs.

If you want this to stop, maybe the good system would be that you have to make your own group and finish the instance before LFG for the instance is open for you. But that wouldn't help the under performers

Seriously ppl that cant do their job in a instance as "its not there play style" just because they want to be carried... EG :

Stonecore normal lvling up my pally tank with a guildy heals -- Boomkin just dots jumps around till proc ... we tell him to wrath & starfire keep dots up. to get better dps. he replied "no, i like this better" we tell him again and this time threaten to kick as he is not pulling his weight," (2.6k dps) .. once again he rufuses so i port out and wait, my guild mate tries telling the stupid druid how to play the class as its his main, but for his efforts to help HE got V2K'd, i had lead reinvited him backand we just sit and wait for the druid to leave as V2K had another 5 mins till we could kick

Stonecore normal - My toon Druid healer 3 other guildies - Rogue 85 rogue in group pulling awefull dps, i notice he hasn't got his poisens on. while healing i type "rogue poisens" i get ignored.... wait 2 trash pulls i still dont get a reply.. after the next pull i use capps. and i get a "%@%% you, get the %@%% out if you dont like" reply from him... so we V2K the rogue.

I could keep going but you get the point.

Ever wonder there could be a reason you get kicked from groups so much... hmmm?
Its not hard to Look up a fight you dont know (you dont want to waste your time, the dps queue would give you more than enough time to make a coffee and read up on some fights)
If you want to do heroics and cant pull over 7k you will be kicked, read up on your toon and understand more about it and hopefully can perform better.

Hunters with sp gear = Instant kick
Rogues in sp gear = Instant kick
PPL not wearing there armor type = Instant kick (go back to normals or quest/Boe greens)
PPL in more pvp gear then PvE = Instant kick (sorry hit and expertise cap please)
Tanks in dps gear = Instant kick
PPL that spec all points to 1 tree = Instant kick

I sigh at the slack ppl expecting a hand out.

My Toons Currently stand at
85 Hunter
85 Warrior
85 Priest
85 Warlock
85 DK
84 Rogue
83 Pally
83 Druid
82 Shammy
81 Mage

I have gone though a hell of alot of pugs and most are great, I know my toons and perform well on all.. I will not go into a instance if i dont feel my toon is ready for it, and because I hold high expectations on myself and therefor I have the same expectations of others .


You have a lot of power over how you perceive the world. If you (the global "you") insist that the community is terrible and are unwilling to seek out the good in it, then, yes, you're probably going to have a bad time since you'll only be looking for behavior that validates your viewpoint. I was merely offering a different perspective to show that, no, everything is not hopeless and that, yes, it's possible to embrace the World of Warcraft community as something that's inherently good.

Best quote ever on these forums. People should take this advice in all aspects of their lives. Your life is what you make it.

01/20/2011 3:51 PMPosted by Aneiset
A positive tale:

I queued for a random with 2 guildies and my wife, and we found ourselves in GB with a hunter. I was immediately put off when I saw his name (Some string of 3 words like "Bigwolfdols") and his pet's name ("Asschewcrew") and thought "Oh goodness, we're in for it". However, because he said at the start of the dungeon "Hey guys, this is my first time here" we explained each fight beforehand and were patient with him. Did he screw up? Of course. He missed with a trap or two on trash pulls, ate a charge or two on the first boss and died, died to some AoE on the third, and ate it in the whirlpool on the final boss. But these things happen when you're seeing mechanics for the first time, and he was obviously doing his best. (I'd like to mention he wasn't doing some sorry-ass 4-5k DPS on top of this, his DPS was ok). At the end of the dungeon he was very grateful, and thanked us for explaining things to him, accepting his mistakes, and not kicking him when he messed up. We thanked him and told him that next time, he could be the one explaining the fight to newcomers.

I felt pretty good the rest of the night, because I'd helped someone learn something new (and because of his behavior, which wasn't the more common "gogogogo" and "lol wut")

I really like this story, because it genuinely reflects what I've experienced in each of the 3 heroics I've done so far.
In every one of them, I told the group that I've not done the instance on heroic yet and would appreciate some guidance. And I got it every time!! Did I make mistakes? Yes, a couple of them even wiped the group (as a healer your mistakes tend to have a more dramatic effect :P). Did everyone pick themselves up again and manage things on the second attempt? Absolutely!
I have yet to be kicked from a heroic for asking for advice, nor have I been abused for making mistakes.

And in the long run, I'm sure I'll become more familiar with all of the dungeons and we'll be running through them with very few hiccups. THAT is how people can learn. Stop wanting to get everything done on the first try and hope for someone to hold your hand all the time. Be prepared for failure, try again and have an awesome sense of achievement when you do succeed.
Then why have I never met these people who are kicking for not knowing the fights in SFK and BFD?
Well, then ur lucky cuase I got booted outta SFK for only having "122k" health at the start of randoms, and they luaghed at me when i got "2shotted" by like 10 mobs and no heals, pll are such prisses these days, in WotLK heroics, i never got bagged on for having low health, cuase thats the place to train to get "decent" health.......
01/06/2011 8:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
I wish they were, but let's be reasonable. This is World of Warcraft. There are a lot of bad apples. Not to say there are no kind people playing -- just that the jerks really seem to outnumber the nice ones.

That's not been my personal experience, so I'm willing to remain naively optimistic for the time being. I will admit that the bad in-game experiences I've had tend to stick with me longer than the good ones, though, and that it's difficult sometimes not to let those color my perception of a larger community of players.

But, good-hearted players certainly do exist. I've just found that they may not always be the most outspoken individuals and can be easy to miss. On that note, here's a /hug to all the nice people I've grouped with these last couple of weeks. :)

/hug back, altho i doupt i ever grouped with you lol XD

but yeah, it depend of the day. we are all human and a lot of people play wow to relax after work.

I try to be helpful, but there is days where i am just burned out and won't have the patience...then again, people who are just burned out of their day and have no patience left should stay out of LFG and just make guild/friend run to ensure it goes smootly
This is why I do not play this game much anymore.

I went back to playing single player only games or multiplayer games I can play with my friends on a locked/passworded server to keep the trash out.
Sadly Ive got to the point where I refuse to pug dungeons and will only do dungeons with friends/guildmates, using the random dungeon finder only to save us travel time to the dungeon.

This finally came about after a bad Grim Batol (Normal) run where I was CCing what I was told to. All of a sudden in runs the Pally or DK (we had both as the other 2 DPS) and lays down AoE on top of the CC. I blow off Readiness, hit the thing with a distracting shot and re cc out of the aoe, the pally or dk re aoe'd on the mob, we wipe and I got told to L2P noob. Got told off a few other times before that so I said forget this and just left group.

previous dungeons had been just as bad
01/20/2011 1:50 PMPosted by Lylirra
The reason for this, in my humble opinion anyway, is because when a blue posts in the forums, it appears that you are naively ignoring the dark side of WoW as far as the negativity we non-Blizzard employees encounter in waves.

"This is not what I am experiencing" responses is annoying to read from a blue.

I believe the exact quote you're referencing is "[t]hat has not been my personal experience," a statement I made in response to someone who claimed that the World of Warcraft community is primarily made up of rude and belligerent players.

Overall, the experiences I've had with other players have been positive. That's not to say I haven't encountered negativity or been treated poorly. I have. Or that I believe my experiences are somehow more representative of the community than yours. I don't. Your mileage may vary, and that's important feedback. It would be remiss of me, however, to just blindly agree that the community is no more than a snarling pack of slack-jawed vote kickers when, in fact, the time I've spent in game using LFD, negotiating deals via Trade, and running cross-realm battlegrounds has indicated otherwise.

Acknowledging that good-hearted players do exist and have left a lasting impression on me doesn't make me ignorant of the "dark side," as you've called it. It simply means that I appreciate the sincerity and politeness I've encountered in-game enough to call it out. I look for the good in people, so I find it. I'm sure that if I spent my time believing that all players were wretched, vile little cretins instead, I'd be able to produce a myriad of examples to support that expectation -- because, hey, we're not all rays of sunshine 24/7.

You have a lot of power over how you perceive the world. If you (the global "you") insist that the community is terrible and are unwilling to seek out the good in it, then, yes, you're probably going to have a bad time since you'll only be looking for behavior that validates your viewpoint. I was merely offering a different perspective to show that, no, everything is not hopeless and that, yes, it's possible to embrace the World of Warcraft community as something that's inherently good.


With all that said, I just want to thank everyone who's participated in this discussion. As I noted earlier, we agree that there's not a whole lot of in-game education available outside of trial and error, and that this can sometimes lead to players becoming frustrated and dropping group. This is something the game could perhaps do better, so we definitely appreciate all the feedback we've received and continue to receive on the topic and on how we might continue to make your in-game experiences more epic.

I started to play wow with some rl friends. Some of them have moved on, and the rest of us got somewhat split up in the great exodus from Gurubashi - US. I still play the game, even without most of my rl friends, because I have made a TONNNNNNNN of friends over wow. I would say I probably havent met over 80% of my realID list IRL. There are jerks, trolls, hooligans, and internet badasses. Sure. BUT there are a ton of awesome people out there that you can grow to be great friends with over time. \

Especially while leveling (heroics are still a bit too strenuous atm), I love just starting a random conversation with my dungeon group and talking with people. Most of the time they are cool and we will end up running multiple dungeons in a row. I've even had someone ask me if I would come play with them on their server.

Like most things in life, this is another one of those things that you you get out of it what you make out of it. 'When the world gives you lemons make lemonade.' There are some experiences where I just shut my mouth and get to work and hope the dungeon ends quickly, but you can always ignore someone, leave chat chan's, and report harassment.

On a side note: I appreciate this thread is getting what i feel is like a heartfelt response above and beyond bashiok the forum troll.
What you are saying would be perfect if not for one problem. People want to be elite and all the people that say they love all the changes and how hard it is would go to a server that was made for noobs just to be king of that world. From what I have seen reading this the Leets get on here and talk about how easy it is and the noobs should get over it, but its like I just stated if they had a server that was for noobs and easier all the people claiming they love it would go there.
Have you ever been to yahoo games and enter the noob areas its always full of people that are really good samething would happen here. Just like all the people at Blizz have been running with tight groups of leet players so long they probably don't run with large groups of noobs so when it comes to how the game is set up they would design it for them not for the people paying the bill. The only way we will ever get the content as we want it is to prove to them we will not pay 14 bucks a month to support there leetness and if you pay your 14 bucks and hate it then shut up and just play.
The Randian "throw the bads to the wolves" approach is a short term solution, not a permanent one. If you don't invest in the player base, your "acceptable" pool stagnates and then disappears through attrition. Most randoms who do 2k dps, or aoe cc, or stand in fire, are perfectly willing to accept advice and direction, as long as it's civil. Those who can't or won't aren't worth remembering and will likely quit in a fiery ball of their own rage anyway, who cares?

Help randoms become good players and we are all better for it..
The Randian "throw the bads to the wolves" approach is a short term solution, not a permanent one. If you don't invest in the player base, your "acceptable" pool stagnates and then disappears through attrition. Most randoms who do 2k dps, or aoe cc, or stand in fire, are perfectly willing to accept advice and direction, as long as it's civil. Those who can't or won't aren't worth remembering and will likely quit in a fiery ball of their own rage anyway, who cares?

Help randoms become good players and we are all better for it..

I've found that not a lot are willing to accept advice even if civil, rather they take offense to it. When you ask people why they have no gems or enchants and try to give helpful advice it's usually met with "STFU I know what I'm doing" There are pages of information right on these very forums in fact, some people just choose to ignore it. Blizzard can only give or provide the tools, they cannot force people to use them. It's been like this in past games as well. A little bit of research goes a long way
Plain and simple: you cannot change the minds or viewpoints of the close-minded. They're unwilling to deviate from what they believe, so more often than not it's going to be a waste of time trying to convince them otherwise. That doesn't make them a lost cause, but it does mean that if you take on the challenge of attempting to change their perceptions that you're going to be in for one hell of a ride, for it will not be easy in the slightest.

The interesting part to that is people don't realize their behavior or mind set is unreceptive. Of course, that's the main reason why it's very difficult to alter how they see things. Attempting to educate the unwilling is never going to be an easy task, unfortunately. What saddens me more is that they're able to spread their notions and presumptions to others, further worsening the situation by "tainting" others. That isn't to say the world is filled with people like this. On the contrary, I believe there are far more people who are kind-hearted and friendly, but they just go so unrecognized that it's really upsetting sometimes.

People who are kind and patient deserve more than they're given, in my opinion. It'd be neat if we could create a worldwide holiday to celebrate those who are altruistic and have the patience of Job. Maybe we can pull something like that together. Petition to our national governments, gogo?

When you need websites to tell you how to play a game, that is bad game design.

These sites do not tell you how to play the game.

What these sites do:

They show you the encounters.
They show you what the buffs and debuffs do.
They tell you the mechanics of a fight.

What they do NOT do:

Tell you what button to press and when.

Big difference.

Look. Everyone was new once. Everyone had to learn how things worked in WoW. Then everyone got to complacent with WotLK instances. Welcome back to Vanilla where you had to know what you were doing as your class to hope to survive.

To the OP:

Even the blue post says to look at other resources like videos to learn.
You stated:
You don't want to watch videos or do research to learn.
You don't want to join a guild that may help you.

Sounds like you don't want to learn, just get lewtz...
I hear there are other MMOs that will be selling soon...

I'm sure it's been suggested, but what about a separate option to click on lfd?

We have the "Dungeon Guide" option, and granted it doesn't put you in a different group if you click it, but what about a "First Timer" or, like... "Tutorial" modes? Sure, it'd mess up some queue times. But people who haven't done a dungeon and actually want to learn could be put into a group with likeminded individuals. Sure, people who don't know the fights might want to be carried through and queue in 'Experienced' mode, but it might possibly alleviate some of the stress of going into a dungeon not knowing how your group knows the fights...

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