How can people learn?

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I truly hope that your comment wasn't aimed at me Nomani, I never look to waste anyones time which is why I let the party know If i'm new to the instance. My personal and school life don't leave alot of time for me to research instances (which i'm sure is the case for other players as well). So when I play I'm not going to not que for a random just because i don't know all of them.

From your post you sound like one of those people that would vote to kick a player because they were honest right up front, instead of giving them a chance and seeing what they can do.
She does have a point though. I believe that a player should be at a certain point skill wise before stepping foot into a heroic. They are considered a hardmode for a reason. Think about difficulty settings in other games. They are designed for players who are seeking a challenge. Why should WoW hardmodes be any different?
Here is a step by step guide of "How to learn a heroic instance". In this example we will learn how to do Heroic Deadmines.
01/20/2011 1:50 PMPosted by Lylirra
With all that said, I just want to thank everyone who's participated in this discussion. As I noted earlier, we agree that there's not a whole lot of in-game education available outside of trial and error, and that this can sometimes lead to players becoming frustrated and dropping group. This is something the game could perhaps do better, so we definitely appreciate all the feedback we've received and continue to receive on the topic and on how we might continue to make your in-game experiences more epic.

The word "perhaps" here is extremely misleading from the reality of it, I find. Anything related to healing or tanking has to be learned outside the game, as the game does nothing to teach you how to play that particular style. It doesn't even attempt to help you DPS better, but that's a question for another day, as 1-85 is strictly a DPS experience provided you do not do dungeons via trial and error.

If I were to give out an example of a great tutorial for a game series that I started enjoying precisely because I could learn how to play, it would be Virtua Fighter 4 : Evolution on the PS2. Every single developer should look at how thorough that tutorial was, and draw inspiration from it. Just playing through the tutorial showed you basic, intermediate and advanced game tactics (multiple evading throw escapes, for example) as well as various juggle combos depending on how heavy the opponent was. As complex as WoW is, this is the kind of tutorial it needs.

Also, there's so much different factors as far as community experience is concerned that I truly believe it when you say you've had good experiences. On my main's server, however, the community is as bad as what is generally advertised. From my, I admit, very bad memory, I've never had a single positive experience on that server, and it may be why I've just stopped caring and, for now, playing. Maybe it's because my kindness bar is too high and certain moments which you would consider true acts of kindness, are moments that I consider "normal".
01/20/2011 9:43 PMPosted by Zoelle
If I were to give out an example of a great tutorial for a game series that I started enjoying precisely because I could learn how to play, it would be Virtua Fighter 4 : Evolution on the PS2. Every single developer should look at how thorough that tutorial was, and draw inspiration from it. Just playing through the tutorial showed you basic, intermediate and advanced game tactics (multiple evading throw escapes, for example) as well as various juggle combos depending on how heavy the opponent was. As complex as WoW is, this is the kind of tutorial it needs.

I agree with this.
Sunforge, I agree with you completely and I am by no means a noob player. My original reply to this topic was to show the OP that there are good people playing this game. The fact that it was a heroic is somewhat irrelevant. I honestly just don't want to lose potentially good players because of the "leetness" of some players that think way to highly of themselves. I don't know the answer to the problem, but I hope that the op has a better gaming experience in the future.

What they do NOT do:

Tell you what button to press and when.

No. Those are called addons.
Here is a suggestion that doesn't involve guilds or out of game info at all.

Start a tank or healer character and get it to level 15.
Goto and get the addons that help your role

Stop questing and just keep on pugging till you hit 85.
Right now, on my battlegroup anyway, the dungeon que time for tanks is 0 seconds and between 1-10 minutes for healers.

So what if you don't know the dungeon, if you level only with pug xp you will learn them all.
Your gear will be stellar from drops and random dungeon rewards, the depth of your experience in instances will enable you to react quickly to new encounters.

If you are a tank or a healer the group will go at YOUR speed.
If you get kicked your re-que time is very small.
If you wipe, you will have learned more about the instance you are in.

I have been dps since i started playing in vanilla (not constantly playing), and i have been afraid to try a healer or a tank. I have always waited till i was at level cap to start doing instances because of bad experiences like yours. I strongly dislike guilds. I recently started doing myself what i am suggesting to you and it is working perfectly for me as a healer. At level 15 a healer is barely needed so i could ease into the role and get my addons just the way i like. I am now a level 30 healer from only doing pugs and wished i had started doing this sooner!
Does no one else find it disheartening that you are expected and have to go outside of game just to be able to play it with others? It should not be that way imo.

I still refuse to learn a fight until I go into it and learn first hand. i don't want to watch a video and learn a set motion, I want to play a game and figure out how it is done. It's what I have always done, it's how I raided in classic and it's how I raided in WotLK. Sometimes it's just hard to find a Guild that wants to put up with that part of me :)

I can tell you right off when Ruby Sanctum dropped, the only update I've ever been on right when it happened and been one of the first in, we got a 10 man group together and wiped for about 4 hours straight, and it was some of the most fun I had in the entire WotLK expansion.

Why? Because we just played, we learned it ourselves, refused to looks stuff up, and just figured things out and tried new stuff until we got all the way to Halion's final phase. We never did drop him, that night anyways, but it was still some of the most enjoyable raiding I have had in a long time, and most of my Guild agreed.

Of course then they wanted to go back to their scripted loot pinatas and we never really got to do it again. But that is not the point. God I miss actually playing the game and not just running a script someone else wrote for me. Anyone else feel this way?
A multi-point post, apologies if any of this has been beaten to death.

I love the experience of figuring out how to beat an encounter by wiping over and over and learning from each wipe. The top guilds in the world share this pleasure, I'm sure, or they wouldn't still be beating their heads against the newest un-tested, unknown encounters. However, I always watch videos of raids, and sometimes heroics, before heading into them.

The way I see it, raiding a dungeon is like buying an album, and watching a video of that raid is like hearing the single off that album on the radio. Hearing the single doesnt compare to getting to listen to the album from start to finish, but it gives you an idea of what you're in for.

I will say I sometimes get annoyed with party members who enter Heroics unprepared, mind you I am only speaking about HEROICS here. And mostly about people who haven't even done the normal version of the heroic they're in.

If I had to explain a fight every 2 or 3 dungeon groups, it wouldn't be so bad, but most of the time I am explaining every boss fight every single time I run a heroic, and with a 40 minute queue time already under my belt, my time becomes precious.

Imagine you are good at your job... you know how to do it well, you have spent the time and effort to train yourself, and sure at one point you were new, everyone is at some point, so you can understand the perspective of new employees. Now imagine every time you come to work, 5 days a week, your co-worker (who you are dependant upon to succeed) is someone new, who has no idea how to do the job, and it's YOUR job to train them. It takes twice as long to do every task because they are still learning how to do it. And you know that as soon as you finish the day, that person will be gone the next day, and you'll have to start all over again with someone new. In other words, all your hard work and time spent teaching that person never benefits your work environment. Can you see how frustrating that would be after a few weeks? Even if those new people are really nice, friendly people, it would be insanely frustrating. It wouldn't be personal, but I guarantee you would start getting annoyed with them.

And then there's the people who never bothered to run the normal mode versions of the dungeons. Have you ever had to work with a partner on a group project at school, and that partner didn't want to do any work, but you knew if the project didn't get finished you'd both fail, so you ended up doing more work just for a good grade? That's the feeling I get 75% of the time I end up in a Heroic and I see someone say "Never been here before, what do I do?"

IN SHORT: I fully support players who want to learn by doing. But I hope those players understand, that for every one of them, there are 10 people who don't want to learn by doing, they just want experienced players to hold their hands and do all the work so they can get their lootz. It becomes a burden to experienced players, and just like you want to play with others at your skill level, we want to play with others at ours.

In effect, I believe we're all asking for the same thing, a way to group like-minded and similarly-experienced players together. But painting someone who has done their homework and/or run every heroic by now as "leet" because they are tired of explaining fights is not helping your cause. Some of us are just sick of explaining fights...
01/20/2011 8:06 PMPosted by Talatsu
I liked Deepholm, nice design. Everything else was meh. BC and wrath were best looking xpacs imo.

As for classes and balance in generall: GC is making game according to his liking now. We just need to rename it to World of Ghostcrawler and we are good.

I am sorry Blues, this xpac was disappointing by far.

Yes cause this all we are getting with this expansion.. this is it for two years folks... nothing going to change ever...
I think I have an answer to the cause of the problem - but first you need to understand what dungeons actually mean to players.

I played WoW Classic and Wrath (skipped BC), in classic I remember dungeons being exciting places to venture. Generally they weren't designed to be repeatedly run, they could take 3 hrs some of them (longer even), but with teamwork they were doable, and provided a sense of accomplishment at the end (and usually had a table of quite nice items).

In Wrath, I found the excitement wasn't really there. The change was that dungeons were ultimately turned into little mini games that you do daily in order to get your bonus reward to keep up with the Jones, particularly after dungeon finder came along and you didn't even have to know where the dungeon was - you could simply press a button and from the confort of Dalaran get into the dungeon and get out with a nice little reward towards your next epic purchase - a job. After this point (perhaps before??) peoples patience for dungeons had dwindled, I think Occ really highlighted this with all the players that would simply drop group the instant it came up... Simply put they weren't there to do a dungeon/defeat a boss, they were there to get emblems. The excitement was gone. But the whole thing was bearable for players because by that stage (apart from Occ) people could just face-roll right through them.

Now we are in Cata. In my case due to wanting to take a break and also to play through the zone quests etc I haven't stepped foot into a dungeon. But I think the problem is that dungeons still mirror how they worked in Wrath - while trying to add the excitment back by reintroducing actual difficult and a greater range of play mechanics such as cc that used to be in abundance before Wrath. The problem with this is that players are ultimately still not going because they want to, because their purpose has not changed towards doing a dungeon for any purpose other than to get Justice points...

  • A player doesn't have to travel to the dungeon

  • or do a quest chain to enter

  • or even know where the dungeon is or what relevance it has

There is too easily no investment!

  • Check the AH

  • do the cooking daily

  • press 'i' on the keyboard

  • do some mob killing to get daily allotment of Justice points

  • check AH again

Rinse and repeat.

The player didn't want to be doing a dungeon they simply wanted their Justice points so they can keep up with the Jones's.

It's not how everyone is going to approach it, I myself will not approach it like that (at least in the beginning, if I get that far). But if you look at the mechanic, i.e. Same content to be run on a daily basis over and over again... Peoples patience for it probably wont be in existence even to begin with because a lot of people are too familiar with it from Wrath.

I personally like the fact there is now real challenge present for more than just the raiders. But I do think that the daily dungeon grind is not good gameplay and that is where dissent is ultimately stemming from.
    01/20/2011 7:56 PMPosted by Zeemus
    This is a pathetic thread.

    The OP expects people to take time to teach him because he isn't willing to go read up on his class and/or different encounters outside of the game.

    No, instead of taking time out of your day to educate yourself on how to play, you create this BS thread complaining about how you expect other people to take time out of theirs to carry you instead.

    Why do you expect us to teach you, exactly? Is it everyone else's responsibility to teach you how to play? No, it isn't. It's your responsibility to do your homework.

    Go do your own research. You must've been one of those kids who never took notes and leeched off everyone else.

    Most of us have 45min queues to deal with, you think we honestly want to waste more time to help someone who clearly wasn't willing to do their own research? Don't waste our time, spend some of yours instead.

    This pleased me.
    Youtube the fights....
    How would someone know they were "leet" if they didn't have "newbs" to "pwn"? O.o
    01/06/2011 8:30 AMPosted by Greendeath

    It's bogus. How are people expected to progress when the ones able to help are total jerks?

    We all became jaded because half the time I kindly offer advice to anyone they'll just respond back with something saying that it's their 15 bucks and they will play however they want.

    So I gave up teaching.

    The last time I asked a mage to interrupt a spell, he argued with me in party chat for the rest of the dungeon saying that none of the spells the mobs cast were magic (yes, those physical fireballs are deadly). If this is what I have to deal with when I try to teach someone, why should I teach?
    I don't see how you are suprised at peoples reactions, serious players expect people to know fights, know cc targets, it's not hard to learn or watch videos/read strats before going into a dungeon. Especially with heroics which r all face roll, I play a healer and we chain pull all the time, The game isn't hard. There is just bads who r making it hard. There's my two cents, Learn the fights or expect to be kicked in a grp when you ask how to do things.

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