How can people learn?

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Posted by Plop
Google "wow bossfights help" or anything similar and you'll get any number of helpful sources

I'll bet you read the last page in a book, first, as well? There is a an element of exploration/learning in this game, that we only get to experience every 18 months or so.
Forgive me if i actually like that aspect of the game. If you don't, that's your thing, read up on every detail of every encounter in the game and memorize it all... have fun, if that's what you call it.

Do you have any idea of why that boss is there? is there any lore behind it? The "cheat code" sites you go to (cause that's all they are, glorified lists of cheat codes) don't give any of that, and are nothing more than databases of mined data from the game client. I stare at huge tables of numbers all day long for work, I refuse to do it for wow.

In the end... I will read guides for RAID bosses. I should not be expected to read up and be an expert on a specific boss' mechanics to finish a NORMAL instance.

And too lazy... really? If you can't come up with an argement better than 'lazy', 'bad', and 'noob', please go back to debate class and learn to have an intellegent debate... or are you to lazy to bother with getting an education that does'nt involve dragons?

01/24/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Stonarius
Void Zones - check
Fire on ground - check
Interrupts - check
Frontal Cleave - check
Big Animation on Ground to Avoid - check
Adds - check
Debuff to cleanse - check
Need to use item on Boss - check
things to click - check

Every single mechanic in end game raiding or heroics or any boss is some combination of the above. There is nothing new about any boss just different ways that they use the same mechanics. The only difference between bosses is what players are required to pay attention to and this is where the failure happens.

But none of these things ever one-shotted you before you get to, say, heroic stonecore. So you could easily ignore them all.

Going mano-e-mano against a healer mob in a solo quest... sure you *could* learn to interrupt the heals... or... just keep fighting it until it runs out of mana because it can't kill you. When was the last time you actually failed (died) vs. a healer mob in the solo-able outdoor world even after letting it heal back to full 4,5,6 times in a row? Never. When was the last time you failed vs. a caster mob after letting it cast 10 uninterrupted fireballs at you? Never, you just eat/drink after that and go on to the next one. Nothing forces you to learn interrupts, it just vaguely encourages you with that opportunity. It's an opportunity to learn which is all too easily ignored.

Stand in the fire a little too long in a lower level dungeon? So what, the healer has you covered. It didn't one-shot you. Someone may complain at you "hey noob, stop standing in the fire" but dude, why so mean? We didn't wipe, chill out, we're doing fine... Again, it was an opportunity to learn something which was all too easily ignored.

So you go into cata heroics and get stonecore... and he goes underground... sure you've run into the idea of running out of the stuff that kills you, but you were never actually *required* to do that (you were only vaguely encouraged) so you're 2+ seconds too slow and get one-shotted every time. Now you are required to use your utilities, required to pay attention, and required to react, and react quickly... sure you had the opportunities for 84 previous levels, I completely agree, but there's a sudden abrupt disparity in difficulty between having an opportunity to throw an interrupt or dodge fire, and suddenly being required to do so or your entire group fails.

How can people learn to be 2 seconds faster? It takes more than academic understanding. It takes awareness and reaction time, which comes from practice (in-game, wiping), not study (on wowhead).

not to nitpick but I believe your point was the same as mine. People need to suck it up and wipe till they learn.
01/24/2011 10:32 AMPosted by Lylirra
and maybe even some lore about who it is and why everyone in Azeroth wants to kill it

ah man this sounds awesome I totally find myself just grinding my way through content and lets face it that it's hard enough playing this game never mind keeping up with its lore... I can one up you here though why not make optional video's at every boss that you can play as an option before every boss or buy hovering over a boss on the map... I think everyone has noticed WOW's disappointing in game lore videos compared to Warcraft three and this is a huge disappointment. Considering we pay a monthly fee it should be far better! And just another reason PVP will continue to leach from the pool of PVE players!
01/24/2011 10:47 AMPosted by Plop
Google "wow bossfights help" or anything similar and you'll get any number of helpful sources.

This isn't part of the game.

The problem is that people almost always have to rely on exterior resources to elucidate boss mechanics, discover where items/gear are located, and frequently how to play, if they wish to play well.

This contributes to a number of "bads" because they cannot easily learn how to play from exclusively ingame sources. -There is no official indication ingame that anyone should search elsewhere to discover how to play.

While I agree that the resources are useful, it should not be an expecatation that people rely on those resources to be able to decently dps/heal/tank, gear, or understand boss mechanics.

This thread saddens me. Greatly.

Let me share with you people a real-life analogy:

I've recently had the privilege to learn from a very experienced, very awesome person who has spent 8 years in the SASR the trade, the works, whatever you want to call it.

On the first day, he outright told the class:

"I'm not going to make things hard for you because I had it hard 8 years ago. I'm going to teach you what I've learned over the 8 years [he spent in the SASR], what I found has made my life easier while [out while getting the job done], what works, and what doesn't"

I've made about halfway through the 53 pages (as of writing) and I felt compelled to share this.

A lot of elitist retards that currently spam links like thottbott (yes, there was a time where thottbott was more useful then wowhead) and elitistjerks do not realise that the reason why this post was created was not because people were unwilling to learn, or unwilling to research. The reason why this whole discussion has even arose is because people who are willing to learn are being lambasted for it.

Now, the reason why I brought up that recent personal experience is because a lot of more experienced players feel compelled that, just because they initially had it hard(er?) when Cata, WOTLK or even BC when it first released, they feel the need of newbies needing to go through that same process. That, in my humble opinion, should not be the case. Especially since this is a game, and one that should be able to be enjoyed without needing to wade through hundreds of different (and often) conflicting resources.

At the end of the day, it's just a game. An MMORPG. It's meant to be enjoyed with your peers (regardless of whether you know them in real life or not), it's meant to be a collective effort, it's meant to be groups achieving aims together (regardless of PvP or PvE) and celebrating each others' achievements.

I think personally, the only real solution is to, as someone mentioned earlier, separate the real hardcore players into a full-time 24/7 hardcore mode server realm(s), and the more casual types to separate realm(s). This way, hardcore players can get their fix, fight alongside or against peers who share their ideology of what WoW should be like, and the more casuals getting theirs likewise.

Just my 2cts
It sure would be a big project to add maps with loot tables into the game. Or maybe atlas has been doing it for years.
accidental double post.
Daily raid training quests. Literally put Varok Saurfang in charge of the boot camp that teaches new players how to do the following:

    -dodge fire in a field made of fire where firey meteors are falling

    -stand directly in between cones of breath and tail swipes

    -run out of an area into a designated spot when they get a certain debuff

    -switch dps to a secondary target that spawns randomly

    -heal a target to full during a scary target dummy ability that eats the tank

It may not be the kind of resources you'd like to implement in terms of strategies, boss weaknesses, etc., but it's definitely something every officer of every guild would love to see implemented for helping the lower-curve of the player base improve their skills.
Haven't read any of the previous posts.

If I can learn it on my own, why can't you?
Just wanting to add my two cents into this. Although I think it is a good idea to have more information but, having all the loot and abilities listed there is a bit much to have. If it were an unlockable thing where, if you beat the boss, it opens it up for people to see all the abilities and loot. That way, people can't go into a brand spanking new boss knowing what he does straight away and what he drops.
I think the problem with the current situation is that Blizzard took all tools away that let the community police itself. Now any ninja or jerk can change thier name or move to another server with no real penalty. So now when the "good helpful" players tend to get invited to guilds early (and this has always been the case. people invite those happy people to thier guilds because it's nice to have nice happy people around you),and then stop doing random pugs because they have guildies who will suffer if they act the way some of the Asshats in the random ques do.
yAlthough most pugs I've run have been fine Guild runs/Friend runs > LFD every single time.

So the short version is guilds skim the cream of the crop and everyone in LFD gets to deal with the scum on the bottom more often.
xfer to my realm, alliance and I'll teach you everything you need to know about all the cata dungeons normal modes and heroics.
Way to miss the point.

It's not about want / not wanting to learn. It's being ridiculed and lambasted for wanting to.
01/25/2011 10:57 PMPosted by Copperfox
Haven't read any of the previous posts.

If I can learn it on my own, why can't you?

I havent read the previous posts either. I agree people should be able to learn on thier own however, other people do not allow them to do this. There was a time when the video's/ websites were not around and people did not say go watch the video / look it up on wowhead.

Now if you admit you have not been in a dungeon (at least in my experience) and your in a random group of people you do not know. They will either A) kick you B) say watch the video (and not give you time to do it if you are will to) or C) (my personal favorite) L2P / Noob / Baddie.... Some people want to experience the game for the game not watch the video or look it up. There are some people who want to learn the fights by actually doing the fight.

Somewhere along the line, it seems people have lost that thrill of helping others. Its really sad. A long time ago there were no Noobs / Baddies / L2Players there were only Players who tried to help each other be it with a buff or a word of encouragement.

Back then no one had much gold and yet they still did not yell at each other over a wipe it was the way things were. I miss those days when people did not hide behind thier character and say things they would never dare to say in a face to face meeting. People were polite and helpful and had some compassion.

I am sure that there are still many players out there that have that they are just few and far between imo. Those that still run through low level area's and buff people who are possibly new to the game. Those that take the time to help others instead of belittling them because they have not done the content before. Sure there are issues with the game but there are issues with the community too. We as a community cannot change the issue with the game but we can change the issues with the community.
Where did I say I want the game to be easy?

Simple, it becomes a collective effort when the people who have been through new content first is willing to share their experiences when newbies ask.

As for sharing of information, that is not happening ingame, that is precisely why sites like thottbott and wowhead are relied upon so much.

How can people learn? Oh I dunno, you tube would be a good place to start.

Glad I could help.

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