How can people learn?

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01/06/2011 9:03 PMPosted by Xatasha
I feel sorry for everyone who is wading through the PUG wasteland. I really urge you all to FRIEND those good people you meet, try to do something with them again, form connections, and who knows, form a guild together.

I also really hope that Blizzard won't pander to the lowest common denominator. Pugs suck, but they should not define the game. People should L2P.

The LFD will play a big factor in defining the game for new players. Most people don't start playing wow and jump right into a big friendly guild. You have to solo for awhile and get to know folk. Mostly you got to know people by grouping for instances with them. If you played well and people liked you then you often got an invite to a guild. Those days are gone

With LFD you are thrown in with randoms from other servers that even if you had a good experience you very likely will never see them again. Guilds that use to run with a pug as a well to find new members are less likely to do so now as well.

Its sad that the new players really do get the shaft with LFD

I fully agree with this statement. IMO, the LFD tool has definitely brought out the worst in people. The level of anonymity it provides just lends itself to the sort of behavior OP is referring to. "Why make the effort of teaching someone, if you can just boot them and hope for someone who knows the fights/class/role/whatever?" People have no accountability for their actions in PUGs anymore.

I understand that the LFD tool is great for people like me, who for some reason or another don't have a guild they can run with, as it allows us to experience the instances as well. I remember the time pre LFD tool, where I only ran the odd dungeon every 2 or 3 weeks.
But I also remember the atmosphere in those groups to be much less hostile (not the mobs, but the other group members :P) and far more relaxed and forgiving.

I would never put the blame on Blizz for this kind of development associated with the LFD tool, but I'm really disappointed in parts of the WoW community, who abuse it.

/end my 2 cents worth
01/06/2011 8:36 AMPosted by Nightfury
If so how do you propose to combat the "jerk" problem?

Cattle prods.
01/06/2011 9:12 PMPosted by Fairadey
You are expected to know this by your guild. You can't place your guilds expectations upon other people. They didn't join your guild and are not bound by your guilds expectations in any way shape or form.

"Someone should not complain about lack of information when there is a ready supply of it on the internet."
Forget that part?
My point is, if you're stressing out about how you think it's silly there's no way you can understand a fight without first experiencing it or having someone explain it to you..
Well you can have someone explain it to you, it just may not be in party chat; it may be in a youtube video embedded on a website.

See my point? If he's complaining about how unreasonable it is to have the community expect him to understand boss fights when he can see what they're about through other sources then.. Bro.

Anyway, blizz did announce that they plan on (most likely in 4.1) to release boss abilities on the map with each boss.

"You are expected to know this by your guild. You can't place your guilds expectations upon other people. "

Clearly if the community (as the op stated) expects him to know the fights, then yes I can extend my guilds expectation onto the community.

And denying that the community doesn't in fact expect a sense of knowledge on fights before going in is ridiculous.

It is always polite to know a fight in lieu of others explanation. There are those who are willing to take the time, but it's still polite to use your own time not others because you're too lazy to check the internet.
Thanks. I look forward to it as well.
For new players it is a bit tricky if they don't realize there's pockets of information out there ready to be read.
Yet hopefully someone can direct them in game (which would most likely happen if they asked in trade chat) or they use the superpower common sense and google it.

I would think only young children would be unaware of fansites to wow.
To the OP: I've actually had the opposite problem where people don't listen/refuse to take advice. I always try and make sure and ask if people know the fights and people will say yes and then proceed to wipe the group.

It's definitely frustrating when people just don't bother to communicate or can't (different language BG) where you end up having to kick them just to finish your dungeon in a respectable amount of time.
I looked on Youtube for all the ICC boss fights since I hadn't gotten into LK raiding until 3.3.0

It didn't take much imagining to guess what would happen saying "LFG ICC10, don't know any boss fights but willing to learn", especially since this kind of stuff was thought to be staple knowledge.

Anyways, youtube and Wowwiki were really helpful in teaching me the encounters.

As for problems playing new roles of your class, trust me, it's not nearly as intimidating or difficult as it looks. I eventually got enough nerve to try tanking with my DK and healing with my Shammy and it goes pretty smoothly now. There are resources online like elitistjerks and tankspot that can help you, as well as addons to make things go better.
01/06/2011 9:18 PMPosted by Invíctus
Clearly if the community (as the op stated) expects him to know the fights, then yes I can extend my guilds expectation onto the community.

You don't represent the community and the community as a whole has not spoken.
How can people learn new dungeons when others are unwilling to teach? When I whine about 'solo dungeons' people respond; rightly so, with 'it's an MMO, you need to expect to depend on others for help.'

Ok, fine. However when I ask for help, tips, or say "Never been here before, tips/tricks/traps to worry about?" I get booted.

No matter what level, I've toons from 1-85 and the leet jerks are all the same.

"Be geared and know the fights."

It's bogus. How are people expected to progress when the ones able to help are total jerks?

I've had 7 friends/family quit because of this. I am not threatening such things, because I still have faith in the community. Why? Dunno, like punishment I guess. ;) However, if blizz wants real NOOB customers, they really need to do something about how the experienced players treat the new ones.

A prime example is my pally went from heals to tank. He's 84. I yell in trade "Tank for regular Wrath dungeons, new at it need practice." And I never get any helpful responses.

Hell, event this guy at 20, I was doing randoms and asked a question and got flack for being 'noob'. Well, yeah, really? what gave it away, the level 22 after my name? ppffsstt I had no heirloom gear, nor any other indication I had higher toons. just wanted to see how people treat noobs, and was/am VERY disappointed.

So, back to the ORIGINAL question. How are people expected to learn new content, roles, skills, if the ones that can help refuse to?

Please don't say 'join a guild' the LFD tool was supposed to EASE that, not make it more of a requirement.

Okay look at it from a different perspective. I dont consider ppl who dont no fights noobs, but moreso lazy. There are guides to the fights. im perfectly fine with explaining the fights. I dont mind taking 2 minutes. When i go into a heroic, i have at least looked up the fight, but im not going to remember every encounter. I simply ask" Can you refresh the boss fight, havent been here in a while" sounds much better then "i have absolutely no idea what i should be doing, what do i do?
01/06/2011 8:47 AMPosted by Drattah
I'm here to have fun, not to teach others the things I learned by just playing the game. Especially when I don't know you. That's not being a jerk, its enjoying my playtime.


I'd like to add to this that some of us have, by now, been playing for like six years and have completely run out of happy-juice when it comes to teaching new players.
I put in my "helpful Harriet" time, more than just about everyone I know or even simply have spoken to - it's done. I'm not booting people who're new to a dungeon, I'm not initiating vote-kicks on someone whose DPS isn't QUITE up to par (but not keeping the group from progressing), but I'm sure as hell not playing teacher anymore.

As this quoted poster said, we learned without just expecting someone to teach us everything - why can't you?
i've encountered more people who are unwilling to learn, then people who will learn
I tried a heroic Grim Batol tonight that failed at Umbriss. I told our dps to keep the malignant trogg CC'd (through fear, as our only CC), and watch out for Blitz. CC'ing the trogg makes the fight a LOT easier, yet somehow they constantyl failed to avoid Blitz.

You can't teach people common sense and how to avoid things. My only advice to avoiding mechanics is don't use your keyboard to turn.
I'm saddened to hear that, OP, and I have been one of the lucky ones that has found friends on WoW who have become quite close RL friends, and the jerks have tended to stay away.

That being said, LFD ruined everything. Sure, for Wrath it was now easier to run your pathetic faceroll heroics to get that "Epic" stuff that everybody used to have. To some extent, LFD has helped out a lot for low-level characters to push through content, but it only really works if you've played the game for a long time, know the entirety of the system, and are simply levelling an alt. For new players, it is a horrible, horrible machination.

This is how it used to be before this "LFD" button. First, you leveled. The first few levels and zones taught you what you, as your chosen class, was capable of. With the new streamlined questing and talent system, Blizzard has made this even more efficient for new players. Good going. So you could say up to level 20, you're still learning the ropes of how the game and, more importantly, how your class works.

During this time, you'd come across a few players you needed to team up with in order to achieve certain quests. You'd start chatting away if you were friendly, and eventually you'd add them to friends list. Later, you'd see they came on, and they or you might whisper them on how they are going, etc. etc. Acquaintances.

By level 40, you may have 3 or 4 people on your server you would deem "WoW friends". They log on, you exchange a few pleasantries, and go on your way. Things get interesting here - because suddenly, you're asked to a dungeon.

This is serious bizness here now. You go along with your new friends, who bring along their friend, who is a tank. They ask you if you know a healer - you just happen to be friends with a player who is leveling a holy priest. You ask if they're willing to spend 1-2 hours in a dungeon (yes, 1 to 2 hours). They agree and you go.

It is an experience. You die a few times, you laugh, you learn. One of the group has already been here before, so he explains all the fights. After that, you know how to fight them, so the next time you go in, you know all the fights so you can explain it forward to the others. You complete the instance. Sometimes you'd want to do another. Remember - no insta-port to instances. You'd have needed 3 players to be at the summoning stone to summon.

At the end, you come out with knowledge of a tank, a healer, and some dps. You add them to friends, and you keep going. When you reach endgame, you should know several tanks and healers, and a few competent dps. Anybody who was not listening to instructions or were not playing their class correctly (even after being told politely that it was better to use X ability instead of Y) were instantly put on your ignore list so you wouldn't have to put up with them again.

LFD has ruined this. There are no repercussions now for bad players. Before, people were shunned if they were bad, to the point that their reputation preceded them and they were not invited to groups. Now, LFD is a rush-through tool that helps no-one, and it's even worse for new players who get told "Here! Have a cool new gadget when you reach level 15 to play with!" only to get shafted by players wanting to breeze through content.

I loved the fact that I got to level during Vanilla. I loved that I could take in the lore and the sights and the sounds of each instance I went to. Just yesterday, I was in Razorfen Kraul, and three of the players in my group were all wanting to see what the new instance was like. The tank had other ideas, and simply chain-pulled, not giving us the option to see what was new.

I'm sorry, but LFD has ruined the fun of instances. Rather than making it seem like you are doing something awesome, immersed in a fantasy world, you are once again pulled into the reality that it's the interwebs, and that there are jerks on this world.

Sorry if it's tl;dr
1 - I always, after greeting the party, say that this is my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc time through. I have been kicked when saying it was my 1st time but usually either someone will give pointers or they ignore it.

2 - I have tried watching the videos.. They are horrible for the most part. Some kid with horrible taste in music and no editing skills along with a heavy finger on the fast forward button... You can't learn from those.

3 - I keep Wowhead open at all times. I have read all the dungeon notes in there and if given a chance I refer back to it.

4 - I am a member of 2 guilds. Have been a member of at least 10. With my work schedule, LFG/LFD is the only way I get through any of the content for the most part. IMHO, that was the single best tool Bliz put in for people like me. If you don't like PUGs, don't use it.

5 - I don't mind wiping. We wiped SFK at least 5 times on the last boss. It was great. None of us had been there before. We tried different strategies, placements of people, etc until we found one that worked. We ended up doing 3 more dungeons as a group that day. It was hell of a pug group that worked well together.

I see people complain about "Wrath Babies" all the time.. IMHO, there is a bigger problem with those Title collectors who start kicking people and get angry after the second wipe. Sheesh people, it's a game. Not life and death. When I see a "King Slayer" in the group, I expect to see that person lose their temper when things don't go perfectly.
I've had 7 friends/family quit because of this. I am not threatening such things, because I still have faith in the community. Why? Dunno, like punishment I guess. ;) However, if blizz wants real NOOB customers, they really need to do something about how the experienced players treat the new ones.

There's your problem. That's 8 players (including yourself) from which to draw a pool of 5, and learn the content yourselves. Instead, you've each apparently tried to rely in groups of 4 random strangers, one at a time.

There's also a huge difference between a "new player" and a "noob." A new player won't screw up a boss mechanic twice. A noob will stand in the bright red flames and yell "HEALZ SUX IM DIEING!!11!111!1!!"

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