Dear Zarhym,

General Discussion
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Been playing this game for 10 years and while you guys screwed me out of the statue for some reason I am still going to play it.
07/30/2015 03:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Alarienne
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It would help if you didn't refer to player concerns as "baggage" because that's pretty condescending, in my opinion.

I wasn't referring to player concerns. Concerns generally stem from an earnest place, and we respect that many people have them. I was referring more to people who have maybe already judged what we have yet to announce, as well as how it fits into our grand scheme of being the most evil game designers we can be, because reasons. Like:

07/30/2015 02:52 PMPosted by Dessertfork
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What's the point of getting new conversations going if the Devs are already on a war path to water down the game even more while increasing cash shop content and disregarding any legitimate playerbase concerns?

More of the same:
"guys, we've learned a lot from the last expansion"; "guys, we heard what you have to say but that doesn't mean we'll be implementing what players really want"
"guys, we made a mistake going a certain direction so we'll take a fresh look at lessons learned from the last expansion"; "guys, players don't always know what they want or what's best for the game so we'll be doing what we do anyways"

Yeah, looking forward to new conversations about more rehashed content repackaged as expansion/patches.


I've never posted as much as I have in the past few months, and I've lurked for years. The first time I posted anything was when it was announced that our real names would be displayed on the forums. I voiced my dissent, the decision was reversed, and I went back to lurking.

WoD has been such a letdown to me. I'm not burnt out or bitter, just disappointed. I don't feel that's baggage but a lesson learned. I look forward to the announcement of the new expansion, but I won't preorder like I have in the past.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
Don't tease me to tease you about being teased! (I got lost writing that.)

Seriously, even though there are people frustrated with aspects of Warlords, or simply just a little worn out from spending so many years playing this game, I hope your curiosity about what we've got cooking is still there. It should be a fun event next week. I trust that many people in this community can check any baggage they might have at the door and earnestly step into the announcement with us.

It's not just about building hype either. We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going. :)

I can say no more!


After Cata I never thought WoW would capture me the way it did in Wrath BC and Vanilla. Then MoP came and blew me away.

Pandaria was a masterpiece and should be held up as an example of how to do a new land. The lore was amazing I felt like I was actually exploring a new world that had been hidden away for thousands of years.

The launch raids were probably the best launch raids out of all the expansions. Throne of Thunder stands up there with Kara and Ulduar.

The first set of factions may have been a long daily grind and locking some factions behind others may have been too much but at least they were fun and had a good story to them. The taking of the Isle of Thunder and the Domination Point quests chains were great.

Content came out regularly and kept us mostly busy (except for 5.3 but 5.2 still had plenty left for mot people at the time).

WoD on the other hand was a dismal failure and brought back some of the worse aspects to ever be in wow like grindy reps and overly annoying raid trash.

Apexis style quests should NEVER be used again.

Garrisons should have not been mandatory like they were. The reason the Farm worked in Pandaria was because it wasn't required it was just something fun you could do if you wanted.

Class overhauls need to take into account what the players want. Arms warrior was a complete screw up the new arms is just not fun but our concerns were ignored because they didn't fit in with the "vision' Blizz had for them. Also Nerfing a spec to force players to play others is NOT the way to do it. If you want to encourage players to play other specs look into how to make them more fun to play.

If you reuse what worked in MoP and remember the mistakes made in WoD when making the next expansion then the next expansion will be great.
I'd like to think that Warlords was something of a drafting scribble by the newly expanded and reformatted Development team.

They lost a lot on the high end, while taking on a lot of new staff. That kind of thing can really rock the boat for a company of any size. The fact that WoD was... flagrantly terrible, to be as nice as possible without lying through my teeth, hopefully can be attributed to the adjustment involved.

The devs. had WoD to learn, experiment, and figure out what not to do.

Here's hoping they were paying attention.
07/30/2015 03:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 03:02 PMPosted by Alarienne
...

It would help if you didn't refer to player concerns as "baggage" because that's pretty condescending, in my opinion.

I wasn't referring to player concerns. Concerns generally stem from an earnest place, and we respect that many people have them. I was referring more to people who have maybe already judged what we have yet to announce, as well as how it fits into our grand scheme of being the most evil game designers we can be, because reasons. Like:

07/30/2015 02:52 PMPosted by Dessertfork
...

What's the point of getting new conversations going if the Devs are already on a war path to water down the game even more while increasing cash shop content and disregarding any legitimate playerbase concerns?

More of the same:
"guys, we've learned a lot from the last expansion"; "guys, we heard what you have to say but that doesn't mean we'll be implementing what players really want"
"guys, we made a mistake going a certain direction so we'll take a fresh look at lessons learned from the last expansion"; "guys, players don't always know what they want or what's best for the game so we'll be doing what we do anyways"

Yeah, looking forward to new conversations about more rehashed content repackaged as expansion/patches.


Did you really want me to dig up every pre-expansion announcement promising glory, glaring issues with beta that players vocalized yet were ignored and then post-expansion dev apologies and promises of a new world, rinse-repeat?
I am interested to see where we're going for the next expac :)

But I do have some apprehension about what the next expac may bring - especially on the healing front. With each expac seeming to try to change how healing works, I look at the Archimonde trinket for Holy and the fact that it is intended to work that way (and to scale that way - cast time gets longer as its ilvl improves) and wonder where Blizz wants to take healing in the future.

So the next healing philosophy post (and there's one before every new expac, it seems) is what I'm waiting for most.

But yeah, finding out who the enemy is and where we'll be going? I'm up for that ^.^
Heeeey, Hey Zarhym,

Do you like Skullduggery?

Do you like to SKULL your drinks?

As a floating skull does that mean you literally HEAD out when going places?

As a magical skull when you were created did you tertiary bonus your eye sockets? Or did a jewelcrafter have to do it? :O

Woooooah. Those deep questions tbh 8)
07/30/2015 03:20 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Nightelfbane
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And then, when people don't like what lies ahead and start talking about it, locking those new coversations!

I don't know if that's an honest comment or more of a jab. But either way, I've been moderating and posting in blue on Blizzard forums for 9 years now, and never has there been a time where we've tried to completely stamp out honest conversations of opinions about the game or speculation of what's to come -- at least not simply on the merit that the opinions being expressed on a given topic are largely negative.

Anyone who reads this and wonders why specific threads they were involved in were deleted in the past, the answer is almost definitely in our forum posting guidelines and Code of Conduct. Nowhere in those guidelines, however, does it say that you aren't allowed to share a negative opinion of the game. For real!


Anyone else notice they just seemed to hire this person to play this character, but the new guy/gal didnt do any research beforehand?

Waaaa? We no delete threads here!

Seriously. Your people have been and it's obvious and it's often not because of the breaking the guidelines. Good topics and conversations just vanish. Often.

As far as leaving baggage at the door, no. You lost the ability to ask for that. You lost that when WoD launched with most of its beta problems intact. You then proceeded to burn that bridge with the broken communication that has been given to us since then.

We are bringing the baggage with us and we are going ask questions, raise points and be cynical. It's not about player burn out its about trust.
07/30/2015 02:48 PMPosted by Lilligant
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
I trust that many people in this community can check any baggage they might have at the door and earnestly step into the announcement with us.


That's asking a lot after tearing down our trust with Warlords.


Why downvote the guy? He's got a point, and a good one. I "Trust," these people as far as I can throw them. Given shoulder injuries I got in the Army, that's not very far anymore. I also don't like his use of the word baggage. the term "baggage," usually refers to mental or social issues people accumulate overtime. is my and others dissatisfaction with WoD a mental issue or did you guys just not give us any "meaningful," content and just TRY not to take any RESPONSIBILITY for it.

Not saying that is what the guy is trying to say at all, but if he isn't: some command of the english language would be nice.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
Don't tease me to tease you about being teased! (I got lost writing that.)

Seriously, even though there are people frustrated with aspects of Warlords, or simply just a little worn out from spending so many years playing this game, I hope your curiosity about what we've got cooking is still there. It should be a fun event next week. I trust that many people in this community can check any baggage they might have at the door and earnestly step into the announcement with us.

It's not just about building hype either. We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going. :)

I can say no more!


You had us with WoD announcement. then scraped a ton of stuff. I ask you. If you went to a car dealer, and they told you this car was going to have all of these features if you ordered it now, and when you got it. had most of them cut. Would you be thrilled to do the same again? Some of us actually value the dollar. So asking for us to go blind and leave any baggage at the door...
NOT going to happen. not for a good chunk of us anyways.
07/30/2015 03:59 PMPosted by Chàrliesheen
07/30/2015 02:48 PMPosted by Lilligant
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That's asking a lot after tearing down our trust with Warlords.


Why downvote the guy? He's got a point, and a good one. I "Trust," these people as far as I can throw them. Given shoulder injuries I got in the Army, that's not very far anymore. I also don't like his use of the word baggage. the term "baggage," usually refers to mental or social issues people accumulate overtime. is my and others dissatisfaction with WoD a mental issue or did you guys just not give us any "meaningful," content and just TRY not to take any RESPONSIBILITY for it.

Not saying that is what the guy is trying to say at all, but if he isn't: some command of the english language would be nice.


The fanboy/staff downvoting for most of these conversations is insane. People are pissed about what we are paying for and talking about it at best gets downvoted and marked as toxic and at worst/very often the post just vanishes.
07/30/2015 02:45 PMPosted by Malveillance
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Is that not hype? lol

I mean, that's the thing. Hype is innately a part of announcing a thing. I've just seen a lot of people talk about our "hype machine" in a highly cynical fashion lately. I know it's because we've announced some things and then changed our plans or cut them further along in development.

I'll just say that we're sensitive to that. Our intent is never to share big ideas or plans purely for the purposes of generating additional hype. All that's going to do is breed frustration and mistrust down the road. None of us chose careers in snake oil sales.


Forgive me for sounding quite cynical here, but you'll understand a lot of us aren't too terribly happy with the way WoD played out so right now there's many of us with a lot of frustration and mistrust. A lot of fantastic things were promised during its announcement and subsequent discussions during Blizzcon that pretty much fell flat.

Garrisons appeared to be shaping up to be a great thing in how they functioned and were said to be entirely optional. Unfortunately they turned out to be a very mandatory part of the story progression and ultimately proved to be punishing if you didn't participate, took a lot away from the social aspect, and is nothing but an over-glorified Facebook game with hardly any customization to it. The shipyard I had hopes for, only to find it to be nothing more than a huge inconvenience to run back and forth to something that IMO too many man hours were wasted putting together in its current state. The graphics are pretty, but you can't really interact with them and the immersion just isn't there.

The central "Dalaran"-like city was just cut for arbitrary reasons. We were all looking forward to this, then last minute it just became two faction bases at Ashran and our Garrisons. No public socializing, no real interaction with others except minimally through random dungeons and raids, and no real incentive to actually get out and explore.

Professions, another thing I had high hopes for, were completely ruined by the forced time gates for everything. This combined with the garrison integration completely killed any incentive to get out and explore and actually work for one's profession. Sure, you tried to shoehorn in something that would require people to go out and farm for a required reagent, but it was a bit too little too late and the damage was already done. I feel like no one put any effort into revamping professions into something fun and engaging and just decided to make it an over-glorified kitchen timer. Insert materials, push button, wait for timer to ding, receive bacon.

The legendary questline. Sorry guys, but you could stand to put in better effort for a better reward. The cloaks in MoP were great, but the grudging annoying grind for an arbitrary number of items gleaned from weekly raids nearly killed it for me and wore on my mind. It was not fun. This go round you still seemed to fall back with the rings to collecting and farming in a chore-like fashion for a ridiculously arbitrarily large number of items from raids for a reward that simply fell flat on its face. We expected something neat that felt worth the effort to get, not a shared raid cooldown. The story and adventure behind it was pretty alright, but please nix the unimaginative raid and rep grinds

Ashran...let's not go there. It's a mess, plain and simple. It wasn't balanced, wasn't well thought out, patches and fixes were put in a bit too late and by that time others had already gotten ahead leaving the rest behind by the time they got into it. It wasn't very fun at the start, and it isn't very fun now. The mercenary mode has some possible promise but I think you're still a bit too hung up over the faction separation thing in this day in age that I doubt it'll be very meaningful or helpful. I feel it's a novelty at best. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but few want to play as a different race than they started out as. It'd be a lot more fun and funny to go in as my chosen race, but with the Hallows Eve masks on.

The way flying was handled was just abysmal. Lots of double-speak, apologies, retractions, confusion, and ultimately a ridiculous an unimaginative rep grind to try to gate something that should have been as simple to get as it was in BC, Wrath, and MoP. Maybe tack on a little extra work to it for fun, but what is planned for the upcoming patch is just seriously not something I'm looking forward to. It actually feels more like a passive-aggressive slight toward those who wanted it than anything meaningful. Say it with me: grinds are not fun.

The point of my little mini-rant is that I sincerely hope that you under-promise and over-deliver next time. My happiness with the game dropped rather drastically this expansion and while I will remain forever the optimist, I really don't want to be disappointed this much again. WoD right now just feels like you guys are more intent to fiddle with things instead of making this game out to be the mature 10-year-old epic adventure I'd expect. It has a lot of awesome promise with the technology you have currently available to you. Please don't let it go to waste.
07/30/2015 04:03 PMPosted by Happyellen
07/30/2015 03:59 PMPosted by Chàrliesheen
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Why downvote the guy? He's got a point, and a good one. I "Trust," these people as far as I can throw them. Given shoulder injuries I got in the Army, that's not very far anymore. I also don't like his use of the word baggage. the term "baggage," usually refers to mental or social issues people accumulate overtime. is my and others dissatisfaction with WoD a mental issue or did you guys just not give us any "meaningful," content and just TRY not to take any RESPONSIBILITY for it.

Not saying that is what the guy is trying to say at all, but if he isn't: some command of the english language would be nice.


The fanboy/staff downvoting for most of these conversations is insane. People are pissed about what we are paying for and talking about it at best gets downvoted and marked as toxic and at worst/very often the post just vanishes.


I agree for you for the most part, but about stuff randomly disappearing i think you're wearing a tinfoil hat. I have only seen ONE instance of that and it was a thread stating that everyone who works on the game should be fired. I poste din that thread myself, but in hindsight. threads like that are not the way to go. Voicing your opinion about the content is one thing, but when you start asking for someone's job it becomes quite another.
07/30/2015 03:43 PMPosted by Twotecs
I'll never understand the logic of people who constantly complain about the game yet still play it. It's like 90% of the player-base are a bunch of masochists.
Probably because we still love the game and yet want it to be better and not just mediocre.
07/30/2015 03:59 PMPosted by Chàrliesheen
Not saying that is what the guy is trying to say at all, but if he isn't: some command of the english language would be nice.
Zar says easily misconstrued things far to often and when someone calls him out on his often dismissive and arrogant tone he just stops responding or says he was misunderstood. The fact that (as he'll often tell you) he's been a blue for 9 years means he should know to chose what words he uses veeerryy carefully. For that reason, I'm inclined to take everything he says at face value.
07/30/2015 04:10 PMPosted by Ravensword
07/30/2015 03:43 PMPosted by Twotecs
I'll never understand the logic of people who constantly complain about the game yet still play it. It's like 90% of the player-base are a bunch of masochists.
Probably because we still love the game and yet want it to be better and not just mediocre.


So much this.

People think we complain out of some insane hate. But we complain and stick around, and hope for the best, while sadly bracing for the worst because we love the game. Sadly less and less of us are doing this and it's frustrating to see entire guilds die off and friends, just willing to log on.

It's getting harder and harder to play the game. And its not burn out, the game just sucks for the most part now. Great... Apex grinding for a reskin of a mount I already have...

Great, killing the same "rares" over and over again for reskins of mounts I already have.

At least with Timeless Isle we were allowed to farm the mobs as much as we wanted.. Here we have once a day.. Come on.

And at least by the time Timeless Isle happened we had older reps that had some story to go back to and farm. What do we have here? Sha Tar Defense reps you cant find a group to grind for?

We are angry because we are sad to the the game this way, and we are angry about being lied to, fed PR department misinformation and having our discussions about it vanish from the forums..
07/30/2015 04:18 PMPosted by Happyellen
07/30/2015 04:10 PMPosted by Ravensword
... Probably because we still love the game and yet want it to be better and not just mediocre.


So much this.

People think we complain out of some insane hate. But we complain and stick around, and hope for the best, while sadly bracing for the worst because we love the game.


This very true. One of the best lessons I learned from the military: Expect the Best, Plan for the Worst.
This is the first expansion release I genuinely feel conflicted about(read that as not wanting to buy it until I actually see the launch version instead of throwing my money in early because I have faith in Blizz).

I'm intentionally refusing to let myself get hyped and may stick my head in the sand on any information about it. It's like when there is an announcement for some movie I really want to see so I refuse to watch the trailer so when it finally comes out I can go into it blind without any expectations and just be happy with whatever shows up in the final released version.

I want so badly to get hyped, throw my money at the screen, and eagerly await the next expansion, but I did that with WoD and things obviously didnt work out as planned. Its a near impossible request to ask me to leave all baggage at the door but I genuinely wish I could!

Please please prove us all wrong, have an awesome expansion, and rekindle the excellent synergy between gameplay and strong storytelling(all major moments in game not books!) that drew me into the Warcraft universe in the first place. I'm excited for the potential future of WoW but it's a lot to ask of us right now(especially after the pricetag on WoD for the value we got) and it may take some time to rebuild my faith^_^
I'll never understand the logic of people who constantly complain about the game yet still play it. It's like 90% of the player-base are a bunch of masochists.


We know what the devs are capable of. We've been around long enough to see the amazing brilliance that the World of Warcraft team can deliver. We're not going to candy coat our disappointment with this expac, nor should we, or it will be repeated.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
lies


You had me until you used that word, you just KNOW someone is going to turn that into BLIZZARD LIES OMG QQ!

Gotta wordsmith that stuff a bit more imho.

=D

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