Dear Zarhym,

General Discussion
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07/30/2015 05:15 PMPosted by Ravensword
07/30/2015 05:11 PMPosted by Yoduhde
...

I'm not sure why you bother responding to a lot of these folks. This is a video game forum. We should be discussing the game, what's coming next, what we like and what we would love to see changed. This should come from a place of joy - after all we're playing a big game together!

I've never seen these forums, or fansites like MMO-Champion so overrun with haters. It isn't just WoD and their perception of its failings. It's been building for a very long time. Blizzard and fansites have become far too lax in allowing what is basically just unmitigated hate spewing. It's built up over the years to create such a toxic atmosphere that it drives players who want to enjoy the game away from these sites. Thus this becomes the refuge of the haters, dog pilers, and trolls.

Honestly, if I was in charge, I'd just start handing out bans for non-constructive tone. Clean up these forums, and re-create them as a place where people who want to discuss the game together in a fun light - even if that's to be critical at times in an adult manner - can gather.

Otherwise you're just feeding the hate beast.

Ok, I've been here far too long. I can feel the toxicity seeping in already. Like most other players who actually enjoy playing the game, I'm going to run away from these forums now . . .


Shutting down criticism in favor of an echo chamber is not constructive.


This is the echo chamber - of haters. Everyone knows that already. Believe it or not, people used to come here to have discussions about the game. We had our share of haters, but they didn't own the place lock, stock and barrel.

You have the right to say whatever you want. But if you're in my house and you're being rude to others, I have the right to have you leave and say it from the street, rather than inside my house.
07/30/2015 04:57 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 04:14 PMPosted by Hanjha
... Zar says easily misconstrued things far to often and when someone calls him out on his often dismissive and arrogant tone he just stops responding or says he was misunderstood. The fact that (as he'll often tell you) he's been a blue for 9 years means he should know to chose what words he uses veeerryy carefully. For that reason, I'm inclined to take everything he says at face value.

I choose my words carefully. But I'm also not going to be a perfectly polished PR robot when I'm sharing in conversation on the forums. I don't think a lot of people would appreciate it if I was either.

I don't have a problem with you taking what I say at face value. That's fair. I don't know that your summation of my communication style is very fair though. I'm vastly outnumbered on this forum and my words are in bright blue to attract everyone. And there are scores of people who will take every possible angle to pick at what I'm saying. And I know that that's going to happen before I hit the "Submit" button, but I'm not going to let that completely tongue tie me when I want to talk to people.

I'm not asking for sympathy. It's part of the job, I know. The job also requires a lot of empathy and a lot of rallying on behalf of players when discussing feedback internally. Hopefully, even if my manner of posting rubs you the wrong way, you can at least understand that we're not meant to be at odds with one another. We want a fun video game that brings people together with joy, regardless of how complicated that can be for a game and community of this magnitude.


you have my empathy, sir.
<span class="truncated">...</span> Zar says easily misconstrued things far to often and when someone calls him out on his often dismissive and arrogant tone he just stops responding or says he was misunderstood. The fact that (as he'll often tell you) he's been a blue for 9 years means he should know to chose what words he uses veeerryy carefully. For that reason, I'm inclined to take everything he says at face value.

I choose my words carefully. But I'm also not going to be a perfectly polished PR robot when I'm sharing in conversation on the forums. I don't think a lot of people would appreciate it if I was either.

I don't have a problem with you taking what I say at face value. That's fair. I don't know that your summation of my communication style is very fair though. I'm vastly outnumbered on this forum and my words are in bright blue to attract everyone. And there are scores of people who will take every possible angle to pick at what I'm saying. And I know that that's going to happen before I hit the "Submit" button, but I'm not going to let that completely tongue tie me when I want to talk to people.

I'm not asking for sympathy. It's part of the job, I know. The job also requires a lot of empathy and a lot of rallying on behalf of players when discussing feedback internally. Hopefully, even if my manner of posting rubs you the wrong way, you can at least understand that we're not meant to be at odds with one another. We want a fun video game that brings people together with joy, regardless of how complicated that can be for a game and community of this magnitude.


If people take what you say personally, they themselves have not learned this world called life, dont sweat it. No one should kill the messenger. But you have been tasked with a rather hard task atm. We do not dislike you, not you .However, we have to think of the value of the dollar, and the way we feel we have been treated.
On a personal note, I commend you. You have the fortitude to come and speak with us. And keep communication going. Even though it is not in your best interest. That says a lot about you. As a person, and as a employee for Blizzard. Shows heart, and I for one respect that. Still does not change my mind though about a upcoming expansion though. I will however at least watch the announcement. :) so there is a mini win for you.
07/30/2015 05:11 PMPosted by Yoduhde

Honestly, if I was in charge, I'd just start handing out bans for non-constructive tone. Clean up these forums, and re-create them as a place where people who want to discuss the game together in a fun light - even if that's to be critical at times in an adult manner - can gather.

Otherwise you're just feeding the hate beast.

Ok, I've been here far too long. I can feel the toxicity seeping in already. Like most other players who actually enjoy playing the game, I'm going to run away from these forums now . . .


Well at least I can be thankful that Blizzard does not run the forums like you would. You cannot have a deep discussion when you only want it to be fun or light. One of the marks of how good a game is how passionate about the game players are. If you go to forums that heavily police threads they are boring and semi dead.
07/30/2015 05:19 PMPosted by Yoduhde
You have the right to say whatever you want. But if you're in my house and you're being rude to others, I have the right to have you leave and say it from the street, rather than inside my house.
Well, since i have no problem with you nor am I in your house and am actually criticizing a game made by a company that welcomes feedback, we have no issues with one another.
07/30/2015 05:26 PMPosted by Tiresias
07/30/2015 05:11 PMPosted by Yoduhde

Honestly, if I was in charge, I'd just start handing out bans for non-constructive tone. Clean up these forums, and re-create them as a place where people who want to discuss the game together in a fun light - even if that's to be critical at times in an adult manner - can gather.

Otherwise you're just feeding the hate beast.

Ok, I've been here far too long. I can feel the toxicity seeping in already. Like most other players who actually enjoy playing the game, I'm going to run away from these forums now . . .


Well at least I can be thankful that Blizzard does not run the forums like you would. You cannot have a deep discussion when you only want it to be fun or light. One of the marks of how good a game is how passionate about the game players are. If you go to forums that heavily police threads they are boring and semi dead.


I don't have a problem with criticism. For instance, I thought what you posted was very respectful even while completely disagreeing with me.

I have a huge problem with people who can't stop spewing things like "blizzard lies", their pet conspiracy theories about how Blizzard is after their $15, other ad hominem attacks against both posters and the Devs, and those who can't help but attack every positive post with hate.

There's a lot about WoD I didn't like. But if I offer criticism of it, I should be held to the standard of adult conduct. That's what's lacking on these forums.
07/30/2015 04:57 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 04:14 PMPosted by Hanjha
... Zar says easily misconstrued things far to often and when someone calls him out on his often dismissive and arrogant tone he just stops responding or says he was misunderstood. The fact that (as he'll often tell you) he's been a blue for 9 years means he should know to chose what words he uses veeerryy carefully. For that reason, I'm inclined to take everything he says at face value.

I choose my words carefully. But I'm also not going to be a perfectly polished PR robot when I'm sharing in conversation on the forums. I don't think a lot of people would appreciate it if I was either.

I don't have a problem with you taking what I say at face value. That's fair. I don't know that your summation of my communication style is very fair though. I'm vastly outnumbered on this forum and my words are in bright blue to attract everyone. And there are scores of people who will take every possible angle to pick at what I'm saying. And I know that that's going to happen before I hit the "Submit" button, but I'm not going to let that completely tongue tie me when I want to talk to people.

I'm not asking for sympathy. It's part of the job, I know. The job also requires a lot of empathy and a lot of rallying on behalf of players when discussing feedback internally. Hopefully, even if my manner of posting rubs you the wrong way, you can at least understand that we're not meant to be at odds with one another. We want a fun video game that brings people together with joy, regardless of how complicated that can be for a game and community of this magnitude.


I agree with you and I'm thankful there are still Blizzard employees willing to engage with the community. Trolls are everywhere ;-)
07/30/2015 02:43 PMPosted by Annellee
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
I can say no more!


I'm not sure if I should take a break from the forum to avoid the oncoming onslaught of Angrish and trollery or buy a jumbo bag of popcorn.


I know where to get a good deal on popcorn
07/30/2015 05:05 PMPosted by Nebulae
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
Don't tease me to tease you about being teased! (I got lost writing that.)

Seriously, even though there are people frustrated with aspects of Warlords, or simply just a little worn out from spending so many years playing this game, I hope your curiosity about what we've got cooking is still there. It should be a fun event next week. I trust that many people in this community can check any baggage they might have at the door and earnestly step into the announcement with us.

It's not just about building hype either. We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going. :)

I can say no more!


First off. I am glad we're getting blue responses more and more lately here. Just wish heroes of the storm got the same treatment although I'm sure that's not something within your control.

Second. Despite disliking 90% of WoD. I loved updated models, and toy box but still so we didn't get at least a race. Garrison's are mostly mindless. Something about 6.2 got me into the game a bit more. Playing somewhat more. Not as much as I did back in the peak of MoP but still. This expansion I'd compare to cata as they being my 2 least fav expansions. I personally disagree with the lack of flying pretty much the entire expansion (not going to get into that debate) and the orcs, orcs AND OH YEAH MORE ORCS! Is a bit tiresome especially after 5.4. Still.

I am keeping an open mind for the next expansion hopefully you learn from your mistakes with WoD and improve on them. I am really hopping for new race/s (AROAKKA PLEASE!) And maybe, just maybe a class(DEMON HUNTER!!!!) When I first read about WoD way back when I was very disappointed from what I read and then it was meh. I played it at launch and got 2 chars to 100 and before 4 months has passed I had all but completely stopped playing. Until 6.2 sparked a bit more interest. I really, really hope that's not how this next expansion goes.

Thirdly. I hope you guys can keep to you not going a year + without new content. With that I guessed presuming you don't do a wrath thing and add a random new content patch that we'll likely get whatever this expansion is between December and February (roughly) as that'll be around 8-10 months ish since 6.2 launched. Which would explain why you're revealing it in august until waiting for blizzcon.

TBPH I am excited for the next expansion reveal. But I don't want to come off harsh but last time you disappointed me so I'm trying not to get to hyped.

I love Blizzard as a company, I really do. I love their products. I've been with bliz for a lil' while and I'd like to be with you longer. For most part I enjoy spending money on your products. And I really hope you deliver and bring us something awesome!

I doubt you'll respond to this but I do hope you read it. Thanks for everything and I hope the next expansions is awesome.

<3
07/30/2015 05:07 PMPosted by Rethox
My main issue with the blue posting is that they often never respond to well thought out threads regarding actual game suggestions, and threads that are actually addressing valid concerns with the game.

We may not respond to many, but we certainly read them, note them down, and relay the feedback directly to developers. We've said it before; there are times where we just can't comment, or we're privy to information about upcoming changes that we've been asked not to address (we don't want to spoil all the surprises). It's part of the process and part of our job. But that doesn't mean we don't care or aren't reading your feedback. Sure, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some, and not nearly enough for others.

By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.
07/30/2015 05:29 PMPosted by Ravensword
07/30/2015 05:19 PMPosted by Yoduhde
You have the right to say whatever you want. But if you're in my house and you're being rude to others, I have the right to have you leave and say it from the street, rather than inside my house.
Well, since i have no problem with you nor am I in your house and am actually criticizing a game made by a company that welcomes feedback, we have no issues with one another.


I'd like to challenge this notion that somehow criticism can only be offered in an attacking way. I work in a business setting where people have disagreements, critique the work of others, etc, without resorting to name-calling, conspiracy theories, and spewing hatred at each other.

I think one of the reasons this happens (and I think I've posted this about a zillion times) is that the blues respond far too often to the most bombastic posts. This sends a message that in order to get a blue response to a criticism post, one has to be bombastic. So it's basically become an arms race (since at least wrath when GC was on the forums a lot) of how bombastic and hyperbolic can I make my post.

And that has run the environment here into the ground.
The last time I got hyped about something wow related, my entire realm was standing outside the dark portal waiting for something to happen. You know what happened? A WoD beta key giveaway on facebook. I'm not giving in to hype anymore, because I'll just end up disappointed. That being said, I'm still very excited for the expac reveal. Looking forward to it.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going


can you give us the most littlest detail about the expac like a new version of a box
07/30/2015 05:30 PMPosted by Yoduhde

I don't have a problem with criticism. For instance, I thought what you posted was very respectful even while completely disagreeing with me.

I have a huge problem with people who can't stop spewing things like "blizzard lies", their pet conspiracy theories about how Blizzard is after their $15, other ad hominem attacks against both posters and the Devs, and those who can't help but attack every positive post with hate.

There's a lot about WoD I didn't like. But if I offer criticism of it, I should be held to the standard of adult conduct. That's what's lacking on these forums.


There are times when I don't hold to adult conduct. There is nothing wrong with saying that "Blizzard lies" if you feel you have been lied to. As an adult I look at Blizzard and don't see the company I once did. I feel like that lied to players about flying. That they strung us along and played on the trust that many of the player base had in them. I know that not everyone at Blizzard is responsible for that. But there is no way to tell the people that care from those that just care about our money.

I know I may come off as harsh and I really am sorry for that. I try to treat the CMs with respect because this is their job. It is how they take care of themselves and feed their families. Hopefully it is something they love to do as well but I still cannot help my feelings. Lied to, deceived, a fool and just plain stupid for still playing WoW when I feel they really don't give a damn. Holding to adult conduct would not let me full express these feeling if I cannot say "blizzard lies", no matter how over the top the statement seems.
07/30/2015 05:38 PMPosted by Yrel
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going


can you give us the most littlest detail about the expac like a new version of a box


BTW, your name and transmog are awesome! Yrel is one of the few awesome characters to come out of WoD (Khadgar and Draka being the others) and is my favorite of the expansion.

And I'm Horde, and generally hate almost every alliance lore character . . .
07/30/2015 05:11 PMPosted by Fichallenged
It makes it very hard for me to get hyped for next expansion when devs in interviews don't focally acknowledge how bad certain things are right now. "We learned some lessons" does not give me hope for a better future, because we've heard that line a thousand times over.

I do understand your point and don't want to distract from it, but also that statement is 100% true every time we use it. We always learn a lot from the design decisions we make, and how they play out in both a test and live environment, that we can carry forward. And that's a good thing.

There's a vast amount of game design knowledge and expertise on the team, but like virtually any other job you still learn as you go and do your best to positively apply that extra knowledge in your latest work.
07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
07/30/2015 05:07 PMPosted by Rethox
My main issue with the blue posting is that they often never respond to well thought out threads regarding actual game suggestions, and threads that are actually addressing valid concerns with the game.

We may not respond to many, but we certainly read them, note them down, and relay the feedback directly to developers. We've said it before; there are times where we just can't comment, or we're privy to information about upcoming changes that we've been asked not to address (we don't want to spoil all the surprises). It's part of the process and part of our job. But that doesn't mean we don't care or aren't reading your feedback. Sure, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some, and not nearly enough for others.

By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.


wow... i can honestly say i'm shocked, i really did not expect a response to that. thank you. that actually gives me hope! i probably won't strike gold twice and get a 2nd response. but here goes.

this is totally off topic from the original posting, but i'll go ahead anyway.

I've heard some people say that moderators/CM's don't monitor the class forums. is this true?
(while i realize a lot of what goes on in there is just QQ, i will say there are honestly a lot of very valid threads and good ideas.)
Unless the next expansion announces a VERY large return to form for small group content (challenging dungeons and scenarios) I don't see a reason to buy it. WoD outside of raids is a really bad single player game. That's it. Also, tired of rehashing old content (timewalking) or even worse, current content (mythic) and calling it new. It isn't new. Just boring.

My fondest memories in EQ and WoW were gathing a group of friends and crawling through a dungeon for an hour or 2. Dungeons now, even the first time we did them, took 10-15 minutes tops. Currently, the only limiting factor is boss phases where you can't burn them down.

I know, I know, people go on and on and on about achievements and such, and how if I would JUST get the achievement it would be hard and take a while. And I agree, when I find the content fun, there is a reason to do that. But as you can see, the last time I found dungeon content fun enough to actively engage in achievement hunting was Cata dungeons.
07/30/2015 05:40 PMPosted by Yoduhde
Yrel is one of the few awesome characters to come out of WoD


I like cardboard as much as the next guy, very pliant, but I don't think it makes for a good "character".

07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some


I would rather see that than blue posts in joke threads.

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