Dear Zarhym,

General Discussion
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07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
07/30/2015 05:07 PMPosted by Rethox
My main issue with the blue posting is that they often never respond to well thought out threads regarding actual game suggestions, and threads that are actually addressing valid concerns with the game.

We may not respond to many, but we certainly read them, note them down, and relay the feedback directly to developers. We've said it before; there are times where we just can't comment, or we're privy to information about upcoming changes that we've been asked not to address (we don't want to spoil all the surprises). It's part of the process and part of our job. But that doesn't mean we don't care or aren't reading your feedback. Sure, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some, and not nearly enough for others.

By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.


You may not be able to get say much, but a small little pop in saying you at least saw and are relaying the topics would be HUGE. When people see no responces even though we may believe you guys are listening it starts to look otherwise. The players are just as passionate of the game as you guys are and simple small acknowledgements would go a long way to have people at least know you saw the post. Especialy with the big hot topics. I really feel sorry for the pvp'ers. those poor buggers don't get any info at all.and every suggestion seems to be countered with another terrible idea.
All joking aside Zar & Crit, please please please understand and relay onto your devs and whoever else, that the Orcxaustion is real. I can't speak for all wow players of course, but every one I know is just sooooo *tired* of everything revolving around Orcs, orcs, and more orcs. You have a non-orc warchief in charge of the Horde now, please take this chance to focus attention on all other races, and let orcs simmer in the background for a while.

No more Thrall, No more Grommash (who should be tried for his crimes as warlord of the iron horde btw, if not neccisarily killed/executed for them - there should be some accountability there), at least for a while. I can understand if Gul'dan is too central to your plans going forward to abandon/sideline at this point, but please, no armies of fel orcs, just let orcs have a break - and us a break from the constant orcs.
07/30/2015 05:40 PMPosted by Tiresias
07/30/2015 05:30 PMPosted by Yoduhde

I don't have a problem with criticism. For instance, I thought what you posted was very respectful even while completely disagreeing with me.

I have a huge problem with people who can't stop spewing things like "blizzard lies", their pet conspiracy theories about how Blizzard is after their $15, other ad hominem attacks against both posters and the Devs, and those who can't help but attack every positive post with hate.

There's a lot about WoD I didn't like. But if I offer criticism of it, I should be held to the standard of adult conduct. That's what's lacking on these forums.


I know I may come off as harsh and I really am sorry for that. I try to treat the CMs with respect because this is their job. It is how they take care of themselves and feed their families. Hopefully it is something they love to do as well but I still cannot help my feelings. Lied to, deceived, a fool and just plain stupid for still playing WoW when I feel they really don't give a damn. Holding to adult conduct would not let me full express these feeling if I cannot say "blizzard lies", no matter how over the top the statement seems.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Really I am. I understand you feel let down for whatever reason. We've all been there.

And here's the thing: This is a video game forum. It should be a place where people can come to enjoy then game. If you feel you can't offer criticism - including that you're very disappointed that Blizzard didn't follow through on a promised feature or plan - in an adult way, then that post has no place here.

That goes for me as well.

I'd love to talk separately about the whole "Blizzard lied" thing, but it's a bit off topic. In a nutshell, I don't think Blizzard ever intends to break promises to the playerbase unless they feel they have to (design decisions, things not working out as intended, etc). I think ascribing some kind of malicious intent to the developers for those decisions is what makes the post childish and hateful. And I think in adult conversation, we could do without that.

That being said, I think it's certainly understandable to say "well, you guys have said some things in the past, and then gone back on them for various reasons, so I'm not going to get hyped until I see the final product."
If Thrall steals one more kill from me, I'm going to have to report him. And I'll be expecting to see him banned from game, especially with all the documentation other players have provided on this famous griefer.
I am just loving these blue posts right now. It puts a smile on my face.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
Don't tease me to tease you about being teased! (I got lost writing that.)

Seriously, even though there are people frustrated with aspects of Warlords, or simply just a little worn out from spending so many years playing this game, I hope your curiosity about what we've got cooking is still there. It should be a fun event next week. I trust that many people in this community can check any baggage they might have at the door and earnestly step into the announcement with us.

It's not just about building hype either. We want to share what lies ahead and get some new conversations going. :)

I can say no more!


Well we can't actually go by what is said during these events, we have to wait till the actual release. Blizzard has to bring a real expansion with actual content other than raids for me to have faith in them again.
Well, can i be a mod or not? :)
@Zarhym

Any chance you could convince a dev or two to hop on the official forums for some AMA time after the Aug 6th announcement?
07/30/2015 05:43 PMPosted by Zarhym
There's a vast amount of game design knowledge and expertise on the team, but like virtually any other job you still learn as you go and do your best to positively apply that extra knowledge in your latest work.


i struggle to understand why they can't seem to learn the obvious.

Combat, rotational mechanics, character progression, etc...

it seems like the keep trying to reinvent the wheel every xpac, or, remove AS MANY ABILITIES AS POSSIBLE.Meanwhile, players have been consistently preaching "No, wait... you had it right in wrath"

we end up in this situation like wod, where they tell us "ok guys, get out in the world and battle the forces of evil! with your 5 abilities... in a totally un-threatening world".

yet still, in his last interview, Ion comes out with "oh no we didn't prune too much... actually, it wasn't enough".

if i had one wish, id want a real combat system again. not a handful of optional abilities (which would have been baseline in past expansions anyway) and empty gcds...but real, tight, cohesive combat.
07/30/2015 05:40 PMPosted by Yoduhde
Yrel is one of the few awesome characters to come out of WoD


I like cardboard as much as the next guy, very pliant, but I don't think it makes for a good "character".


Thank you for that extremely cryptic response.

In a world chocked full of overly cliched anti-heroes, I find myself actually pining away for real hero archetypes. And Yrel certainly is that (as is Khadgar).
<3


Wow you actually responded...

Trying to figure out if that's just a random response to my post or you're silently hinting at something. For the safe side I'm gonna say its a silent response. :p.
07/30/2015 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
get some new conversations going. :)


I've got a new conversation for you:
As a player who came back in 6.1-6.2 after having played BC and Wrath and took a break for the other expacs, when do we get to 40-man raid Magatha Grimtotem and why won't it be in the impending troll raid Zul'Metz in 6.3?
07/30/2015 05:43 PMPosted by Zarhym
07/30/2015 05:11 PMPosted by Fichallenged
It makes it very hard for me to get hyped for next expansion when devs in interviews don't focally acknowledge how bad certain things are right now. "We learned some lessons" does not give me hope for a better future, because we've heard that line a thousand times over.

I do understand your point and don't want to distract from it, but also that statement is 100% true every time we use it. We always learn a lot from the design decisions we make, and how they play out in both a test and live environment, that we can carry forward. And that's a good thing.

There's a vast amount of game design knowledge and expertise on the team, but like virtually any other job you still learn as you go and do your best to positively apply that extra knowledge in your latest work.


I feel like you tried new things in WoD which is fine but because it was new you didn't have past failures to fall back on as guidance. So hopefully you have those now for this next one. I loved MoP for the most part. Cata was meh. Wrath was good. BC (Had another account BC/early wrath) from what I remember was pretty good too.
I look forward to seeing whats on offer for the next expansion

What I am not loking forward to are the cuts, changes, edits, amends, deletions, turnarounds..WOD was promised so much and got to little.A

And not to put too fine a poiint on it, after the last fiasco I will expect to see a concrete answer as to when we get flight. I wont accept "wait and see": or "we dont know" anymore.

Speaking of which...wheres the patch?

Wheres flight?

When do we fly? We are almost into August. You had us do this meta..we've done it so wheres the patch?
07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
We may not respond to many, but we certainly read them, note them down, and relay the feedback directly to developers. We've said it before; there are times where we just can't comment, or we're privy to information about upcoming changes that we've been asked not to address (we don't want to spoil all the surprises). It's part of the process and part of our job. But that doesn't mean we don't care or aren't reading your feedback. Sure, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some, and not nearly enough for others.

By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.


Is this like a game of telephone where we say one thing, you notate it, but by the time it gets to developers it's actually something different? Because I know that I, like a lot of others, have felt that player wants and desires go vastly unnoticed and disregarded.

The ONE time that I was happy that you (generally speaking) didn't listen to us was when you announced that there would be no flying in Draenor. (Sorry other forum people, but I rather liked that.) Flying this early in the expansion, in my opinion, would cheapen the experience. But ground was given under the endless onslaught of the player base complaining about it, and now we have the equivalent of a legendary quest line just to get flying "later."

Honestly, I would love to know just what the heck happened to the developer team? I understand that you lost a lot of people, and that is something hard to come back from. When was it decided, however, that it was completely acceptable to have only one (1!) content patch? Vanilla World of Warcraft had 11, and I'm sure that there are plenty who enjoyed every single one of those patches. I love going into new content, seeing new raids and bosses, making new friends (i.e. new factions). I want new content just as much as others, but not for the cost of two expansions a year.

Also, whilst I'm on my soap-box, I have to say that I am seriously disgruntled with the way the lore has turned. With so many different time-lines going on, it's difficult to keep anything straight anymore. I've been a huge fan of the lore since I read the first book, but now... It's like when Doc Brown and Marty McFly were talking about going to the future to change history in Back to the Future 2. So, do we go the future? No, we have to go the past.

Having read this whole forums posting, I can agree with a lot of my fellow posters. This expansion has been, in a word, disappointing. The shipyard and naval missions are resources sinks with non-existent engaging content. The garrison missions were better, because at least we didn't lose followers if they failed a mission (don't add that to the wants/desires list, because that isn't what we want). Raids have been difficult to enjoy. Garrison campaigns left a lot to be desired, as some of the individual stories seemed to fail in connecting to the bigger picture.

As a positive, I can say that I did enjoy the questing from 90-100. It was rather nice to have a good storyline to follow as you leveled.
07/30/2015 05:36 PMPosted by Yoduhde
07/30/2015 05:29 PMPosted by Ravensword
... Well, since i have no problem with you nor am I in your house and am actually criticizing a game made by a company that welcomes feedback, we have no issues with one another.


I'd like to challenge this notion that somehow criticism can only be offered in an attacking way. I work in a business setting where people have disagreements, critique the work of others, etc, without resorting to name-calling, conspiracy theories, and spewing hatred at each other.

I think one of the reasons this happens (and I think I've posted this about a zillion times) is that the blues respond far too often to the most bombastic posts. This sends a message that in order to get a blue response to a criticism post, one has to be bombastic. So it's basically become an arms race (since at least wrath when GC was on the forums a lot) of how bombastic and hyperbolic can I make my post.

And that has run the environment here into the ground.


07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.


They want us to discuss things. Believe it or not, I am actually one of the more moderate and polite posters, so you're preaching to the choir. Regardless, they want feedback and all that matters is that we don't violate forum rules. Stop trying to shut down discussion just because it discomforts you.

There are people here who are positive, so this is not a completely negative echo chamber. People have been massively unhappy with this product, regardless of the fact that you may enjoy the product fully and find that unhappiness cognitively dissonant.
07/30/2015 05:50 PMPosted by Yoduhde

I'm sorry you feel that way. Really I am. I understand you feel let down for whatever reason. We've all been there.

And here's the thing: This is a video game forum. It should be a place where people can come to enjoy then game. If you feel you can't offer criticism - including that you're very disappointed that Blizzard didn't follow through on a promised feature or plan - in an adult way, then that post has no place here.

That goes for me as well.

I'd love to talk separately about the whole "Blizzard lied" thing, but it's a bit off topic. In a nutshell, I don't think Blizzard ever intends to break promises to the playerbase unless they feel they have to (design decisions, things not working out as intended, etc). I think ascribing some kind of malicious intent to the developers for those decisions is what makes the post childish and hateful. And I think in adult conversation, we could do without that.

That being said, I think it's certainly understandable to say "well, you guys have said some things in the past, and then gone back on them for various reasons, so I'm not going to get hyped until I see the final product."


Video game forums should be a place were people can express themselves about a video game, good or bad. I don't come to game forums to enjoy the game, I play the game to enjoy it. You may not like how people are expressing themselves but unless they cross some major lines I don't see a problem with that being done in a non-adult way. I am not saying that it is okay for people to insult devs or CMs. I have seen some nasty things said on here and they don't have a place on any forum.

As for the Blizzard lied issue, I do feel they will break promises to the player base. That is why they rarely make promises or give hard answers on something. It will normal be something in the range of "We will try", "Soon", "That is a possibility going forward", and a few my Blizzardism. I don't ever think it is some malicious intent but just a plan old money grab. Blizzard is a business and all businesses are about making money. Sometimes the customers comes out on top and sometimes the customers comes out on the bottom.

I don't hate Blizzard, I once had a lot of respect for the company. I don't now, maybe the next expansion will restore that respect but I don't have much hope for that.
07/30/2015 06:13 PMPosted by Mylise
07/30/2015 05:35 PMPosted by Crithto
We may not respond to many, but we certainly read them, note them down, and relay the feedback directly to developers. We've said it before; there are times where we just can't comment, or we're privy to information about upcoming changes that we've been asked not to address (we don't want to spoil all the surprises). It's part of the process and part of our job. But that doesn't mean we don't care or aren't reading your feedback. Sure, we could jump into a suggestion or feedback thread and merely post, "Thank you!", but that's often seen as antagonistic to some, and not nearly enough for others.

By all means, please keep posting suggestions and feedback. We do appreciate it, and we'll continue to relay it to the developers.


Is this like a game of telephone where we say one thing, you notate it, but by the time it gets to developers it's actually something different? Because I know that I, like a lot of others, have felt that player wants and desires go vastly unnoticed and disregarded.

The ONE time that I was happy that you (generally speaking) didn't listen to us was when you announced that there would be no flying in Draenor. (Sorry other forum people, but I rather liked that.) Flying this early in the expansion, in my opinion, would cheapen the experience. But ground was given under the endless onslaught of the player base complaining about it, and now we have the equivalent of a legendary quest line just to get flying "later."

Honestly, I would love to know just what the heck happened to the developer team? I understand that you lost a lot of people, and that is something hard to come back from. When was it decided, however, that it was completely acceptable to have only one (1!) content patch? Vanilla World of Warcraft had 11, and I'm sure that there are plenty who enjoyed every single one of those patches. I love going into new content, seeing new raids and bosses, making new friends (i.e. new factions). I want new content just as much as others, but not for the cost of two expansions a year.

Also, whilst I'm on my soap-box, I have to say that I am seriously disgruntled with the way the lore has turned. With so many different time-lines going on, it's difficult to keep anything straight anymore. I've been a huge fan of the lore since I read the first book, but now... It's like when Doc Brown and Marty McFly were talking about going to the future to change history in Back to the Future 2. So, do we go the future? No, we have to go the past.

Having read this whole forums posting, I can agree with a lot of my fellow posters. This expansion has been, in a word, disappointing. The shipyard and naval missions are resources sinks with non-existent engaging content. The garrison missions were better, because at least we didn't lose followers if they failed a mission (don't add that to the wants/desires list, because that isn't what we want). Raids have been difficult to enjoy. Garrison campaigns left a lot to be desired, as some of the individual stories seemed to fail in connecting to the bigger picture.

As a positive, I can say that I did enjoy the questing from 90-100. It was rather nice to have a good storyline to follow as you leveled.


Having played vanilla content and then leveled with post-cata content, lore has been taking a beating since the re-do of Azeroth with Cata. It got to the point that one of the higher points of this expansion was finding a Taunka flightmaster in Nagrand. Not to say that I haven't enjoyed some things in this expansion, but it was nice to see that at least someone remembered that we've gone through over a decade of lore-content.
07/30/2015 03:46 PMPosted by Argund
07/30/2015 03:36 PMPosted by Rixna
It's practically all I can think about.

Warlords tripped, and I really want to see whatever's next land a solid step so WoW doesn't fall down. I want to enjoy this game.


Pretty much my stance here as well.


I feel the same way.. I've been playing for a long time and I don't want to see WoW fall. And on a side note, I would love to see the community make a come back as well.

*hands everyone a cookie*

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