Making the hub Horde instead?

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First of all Dalarans ancient past, which includes Quel thalas, has a connection to the Tomb Sargaras according to the devs.


Err, that´s just their most recent BS -to precisely justify Dalaran-. Before the interviews, the relevance Dalaran had with the Tomb of Sargeras is the same one Mekkatorque has in regards to Baine´s appointment as leader of Tauren (yep, none in the least).

Secondly, the tumultuous events in MoP are absolutely relevant, especially if Belves, or any other horde race, were to accept leadership roles in the Kirin Tor and score points for team red as she said.


This is absurd. So, the Belves HAVE TO play idiotic once again just to supply your scenario? Tyvm but I´ll pass. If anything the Belves deserve to finally close the chapter in regards to the Kirin Tor.

And the Horde magicians sure as hell deserve MUCH more than perpetuate the "lol, let´s follow the human mage leadership for evah!!" paradigm. It is time Horde gets a decent and strong organization for it´s arcane practicioners, please no more Kirin Tor for the Horde. Let the Alliance keep it.

But maybe she meant good morale development. I thought she meant good moral development, as in setting aside the hate and anger however justified to defeat the legion.


So the only valid good moral development MUST be done with organizations/locations with Alliance background?

Dear, this is precisely what we are tired to see, and what the Horde needs to avoid in it´s storytelling.No more running behind Alliance organizations, our own organizations have to step up and take leadership in that morally good development at least once.

Struggle to unite despite tumultuous history, sounds like Warcraft.


Wait, wait... so when the ally act lawfully good stupid is aknowledged as stupid from their part, but of course when a Horde race it´s pushed to act the same is "following the principles of Warcraft"

LOLOLOLOLOL

How about no. *I* refuse to have the Belves acting idiotically in regards to Dalaran and the Kirin Tor for the third time in a row. *I* DON¨T want my belf mages having ANYTHING to do with the Kirin Tor. Nor any Horde mage from another race having to suffer the "let´s follow our arcane masters the humans" paradigm as my favorite race has had to since WotLK.

Accept that ship sailed and move on.

#saynotoHordemagesintheKirinTor

08/12/2015 05:19 PMPosted by Steppenvwulf
Hasn't blizzard been developing troll lore for quit some time?


Oh, but have trhey developed true troll lore for the Darkspear? or have they just developed lore for the raid cannon fodder Gurubashi et al?
08/13/2015 04:50 AMPosted by Arielangel
Err, that´s just their most recent BS -to precisely justify Dalaran-. Before the interviews, the relevance Dalaran had with the Tomb of Sargeras is the same one Mekkatorque has in regards to Baine´s appointment as leader of Tauren (yep, none in the least).


Aegwynn, the Gaurdian of Tirisfal, destroyed the avatar of sargares and placed it in the Tomb. There is lore to explore regarding the order of Tirisfal and its relation to Dalaran and Quel thalas. The lore has been set up, far less random and six degrees of kevin bacon than the Gelbin/Baine. Its not coming out of the Blue.

08/13/2015 04:50 AMPosted by Arielangel
This is absurd. So, the Belves HAVE TO play idiotic once again just to supply your scenario?

Tyvm but I´ll pass. If anything the Belves deserve to finally close the chapter in regards to the Kirin Tor.And the Horde magicians sure as hell deserve MUCH more than perpetuate the "lol, let´s follow the human mage leadership for evah!!" paradigm. It is time Horde gets a decent and strong organization for it´s arcane practicioners, please no more Kirin Tor for the Horde. Let the Alliance keep it.


I certainly hope they don't get hit with the idiot ball, I want a decent story as well. And if they took leadership roles in the council they wouldn't be following the humans, they would be lead beside them.

08/13/2015 04:50 AMPosted by Arielangel
So the only valid good moral development MUST be done with organizations/locations with Alliance background?Dear, this is precisely what we are tired to see, and what the Horde needs to avoid in it´s storytelling.No more running behind Alliance organizations, our own organizations have to step up and take leadership in that morally good development at least once.


Of course its not the only valid way. I don't want the horde to be running behind the alliance I want to run side by side with them, the legion is coming. But the point is you want to lead, maybe this can still happen.

If not this expansion then the next.

08/13/2015 04:50 AMPosted by Arielangel
Wait, wait... so when the ally act lawfully good stupid is aknowledged as stupid from their part, but of course when a Horde race it´s pushed to act the same is "following the principles of Warcraft"


help me out here, where did I acknowledge the alliance ever acted lawfull stupid and acknowledge it as stupid?

Oh, but have they developed true troll lore for the Darkspear? or have they just developed lore for the raid cannon fodder Gurubashi et al?


Hopefully if we ever go to Zandalar Voljin can take point.
Aegwynn, the Gaurdian of Tirisfal, destroyed the avatar of sargares and placed it in the Tomb. There is lore to explore regarding the order of Tirisfal and its relation to Dalaran and Quel thalas.


Irrelevant to the point. My point is, if you remove Aegwyn your Dalaran/Kirin Tor - Tomb of Sargeras link gets obliterated (and one should do it considering Aegwyn has much to do with characters related with the Kirin Tor but practically nothing to do with the Kirin Tor per se).

Ergo, Kirin Tor / Dalaran and the Tomb of Sargeras probably have MUCH less to do with each other than with for example the Night Elf Sentinels/Watchers, The Shadow Council, etc.

I certainly hope they don't get hit with the idiot ball, I want a decent story as well.


Your proposal implies otherwise

And if they took leadership roles in the council they wouldn't be following the humans, they would be lead beside them.


Funny, wasn´t that supposed to be "true" two expacs ago with Aethas? However in practice... tsk, tsk, tsk. It´s a useless position, nothing more than an empty figurehead. ergo, you´re wrong, the belves & the rest of the Horde mages would be a minority -as always- following the parameters of human leadership (in this case: Khadgar et al. After all the only confirmed "resigned" member is Jaina... the other human members of the Council are very much active)... as always.

So spare me this lol worthy narrative, it´s bad and we both now it.

And once again, what´s the problem with letting the Kirin Tor mantain it´s "Alliance exclusive organization" status quo? If anything the way the devs forcibly push it to neutrality may make it the most laughable neutral organization in the game ever... truly 0 credibility to their principles.

Of course its not the only valid way. I don't want the horde to be running behind the alliance I want to run side by side with them


Then explain why any Horde organization fulfilling the same damn job than the Kirin Tor is not valid but the Kirin Tor -with all the Alliance background- is?

Imho, it´s just the "buut, buut, background and pedrigree!!" bias. How can Horde organizations further development than "lol, created to compete with this Ally organization over there" if we don´t let them get out of said paradigm?

If it makes you feel "better" I would accept a new organization created in a similar way than the Argent Crusade (let´s make Baine fulfill Tirion´s role for example and create a new neutral organization). Something neutral with a Horde leadership that´s not Thrall for once.

08/13/2015 06:23 AMPosted by Steppenvwulf
help me out here, where did I acknowledge the alliance ever acted lawfull stupid and acknowledge it as stupid?


Las expac usual poop throwing discussions if my memory is right.
08/13/2015 01:03 AMPosted by Dorcy
Again, all new content that wouldn't have been worked on if they hadn't made Dalaran the new hub. Those same story elements would still even be in the game with a new hub, just moved off-site to a different location.


Its not out of the blue though. There is lore regarding Aewgwyn, the tomb, the council of tirisfal and quell'thalas having to aid the humans in magic after they botched it the first time.

08/13/2015 01:03 AMPosted by Dorcy
That's of course assuming that they will take time out to tell that story, the story they might tell could be as simple as "Khadgar's in charge, the Kirin Tor are friendly to everybody, look at Dalaran isn't she pretty?"


And I really hope they take the time.

08/13/2015 01:03 AMPosted by Dorcy
Awesome is an entirely subjective measure. As for making sense to the lore, both the suggestion of the Goblin air fortress and Horde aligned High Mountain city both make as much sense as Dalaran, more maybe. The forces of Dalaran have wide access to portals and so can, in theory, can attack from anywhere.


I disagree. Goblin air base is rule of cool random, and the high mountain Taurens main problem are the "not-troll" things and the Hammer Of kaz'Goroth.

The demon invasion is pouring out of the Tomb, which has connection to Dalaran.
08/13/2015 06:47 AMPosted by Arielangel
Las expac usual poop throwing discussions if my memory is right.


but where did I say it?
08/12/2015 05:36 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
08/12/2015 04:40 PMPosted by Scryll
Why would it have to be a stick and mud hut for trolls? They're the oldest known city-builders on Azeroth, there could be an ancient city of theirs easily


Yeah, in Aztec/Mayan ruins like every other troll architecture since Vanilla.


But that shouldn't be the case, going by the troll lore. Even if the Amani and Gurubashi lost all their civilization (and the Amani didn't, not fully), the Zandalari retained theirs. But everytime they've appeared, it's been with the exact same aesthetic and civilization level as the most uncivilized trolls.
Its not out of the blue though. There is lore regarding Aewgwyn, the tomb, the council of tirisfal and quell'thalas having to aid the humans in magic after they botched it the first time.


Okay assuming that bringing up Aegwynn, the Power Cosmic of the Guardian of Tirisfal, oh, and yet another woman being tricked by a very simple ruse is a good addition to the story. That doesn't require Dalaran. Aegwynn fought the avatar of Sargeras in Northrend, and burried him under the sea in Kalimdor, Dalaran doesn't even come into the story until well after Sargeras' Tomb is out of it and Aegwynn is going crazy.

And I really hope they take the time.


I'm not so sure. Time spent on that is time taken away from the expansion at large. If they have to choose between using resources to tell a bad story about the politics in Dalaran that ultimately pisses people off or a good story somewhere else in the expansion that makes people happy. I'll take the good story.

08/13/2015 06:55 AMPosted by Steppenvwulf
I disagree. Goblin air base is rule of cool random, and the high mountain Taurens main problem are the "not-troll" things and the Hammer Of kaz'Goroth.

The demon invasion is pouring out of the Tomb, which has connection to Dalaran.


Good to know your opinion on that, but what we're discussing right now is whether a Horde base could 'make sense in lore.' Something doesn't stop making sense just because it's cool and because you missed the lead up lore that explains it.
08/12/2015 05:22 AMPosted by Dorcy
In a recent Dalaran thread I asked posters, Alliance and Horde alike, how they would feel if the Dalaran situation were reversed. I got a little conspiracy theory mongering and burden shifting from Healstime, but otherwise the question got lost to the flow of discussion. Which is fair, it could be seen as an off topic digression, and it isn't an easy question.

So here, it's own topic. Imagine, instead of Dalaran, the hub was to be a Horde themed fortress, town or base, with an associated Horde aligned faction, and led by a Horde NPC that is friendly with the Alliance. No other information, but mirror the situation with Khadgar, Dalaran and the Kirin Tor as much as you can. Or, since we don't know enough about Khadgar, Dalran and the Kirin Tor in the next expansion, mirror the situation with Rhonin, Aethas and Vareesa in Lich King as much as you can.

If you're a Horde player how does it make you feel to have art assets, territory and Horde resources being made available to Alliance players. If you're an Alliance player, how does it feel to have to rely on and make use of Horde art assets, territory and resources to be successful?

If you're a Horde player, how does it feel to get significant story progression related to a Horde faction at the price of it taking a stance of neutrality in the war between the Alliance and Horde?

If you're an Alliance player, how does it feel to not get significant story progression related to an Alliance faction because Blizzard opted to only develop this single hub?


Without looking at the back and forth that has gone on between this and my posting - I would say that the tactic in general sucks and needs to go away.

I get that you don't like having to rely on Alliance art assets. As a Night Elf player who constantly has to rely on human art assets, I sympathize with you 100%.

I would only ask you to consider the other side of this as well - Alliance players in general have not appreciated having their themes exported to the Horde just so that the developers can avoid the extra work. It has produced some very inconsistent lore, and in the case of one race in particular (you know where this is going), it has been used to demolish the leadership and make the playable race into a shell.

This practice helps no one. So I would feel that "Horde Dalaran" would need to go.
08/13/2015 07:52 AMPosted by Dorcy
Okay assuming that bringing up Aegwynn, the Power Cosmic of the Guardian of Tirisfal, oh, and yet another woman being tricked by a very simple ruse is a good addition to the story. That doesn't require Dalaran. Aegwynn fought the avatar of Sargeras in Northrend, and burried him under the sea in Kalimdor, Dalaran doesn't even come into the story until well after Sargeras' Tomb is out of it and Aegwynn is going crazy.


According to devs there is a connection between the Tomb and Dalaran.

Its not random considering the origins of Dalaran and the Council of Tirisfal. Dalaran was relevant before the guardians and the reason for council of Tirisfals creation. Horde Sealab, while I'm sure very impressive considering horde Shamans, Mages and Goblin Tech, is random and has no established lore connecting to the main threat of the Expansion. Same with the Goblin Air City. random.

What relation is there between High Mountain Tuaren and the Goblin City have with the tomb of Sargeras?

I'm not seeing it.

08/13/2015 07:52 AMPosted by Dorcy
Good to know your opinion on that, but what we're discussing right now is whether a Horde base could 'make sense in lore.' Something doesn't stop making sense just because it's cool and because you missed the lead up lore that explains it.


What lore am I not considering? The purge? the tuaren?

Horde heavy earthen ring Hosting a hub in Neltherians lair could be interesting. Voljin leading a the charge in a Zandalar expansion could make sense.

08/13/2015 07:52 AMPosted by Dorcy
I'm not so sure. Time spent on that is time taken away from the expansion at large. If they have to choose between using resources to tell a bad story about the politics in Dalaran that ultimately pisses people off or a good story somewhere else in the expansion that makes people happy. I'll take the good story.


I want solid story through the zones as well as Dalaran politics. But If their not going to tell a great political story and half !@# it why bother?

As far as aesthetics go, would a solution be to have the floating goblin city attached to or orbiting dalaran. Instead of giving the Horde section of the city. Or perhaps Horde shaman raise a small island to fly along with Dalaran.
08/13/2015 07:52 AMPosted by Dorcy
Okay assuming that bringing up Aegwynn, the Power Cosmic of the Guardian of Tirisfal, oh, and yet another woman being tricked by a very simple ruse is a good addition to the story. That doesn't require Dalaran. Aegwynn fought the avatar of Sargeras in Northrend, and burried him under the sea in Kalimdor, Dalaran doesn't even come into the story until well after Sargeras' Tomb is out of it and Aegwynn is going crazy.


According to devs there is a connection between the Tomb and Dalaran.

Its not random considering the origins of Dalaran and the Council of Tirisfal. Dalaran was relevant before the guardians and the reason for council of Tirisfals creation.

Horde Sealab, while I'm sure very impressive considering horde Shamans, Mages and Goblin Tech, is random and has no established lore connecting to the main threat of the Expansion.

Same with the Goblin Air City. random.

What relation is there between High Mountain Tuare and the Goblin City have with the tomb of Sargeras?

I'm not seeing it.


Your connection is way weaker than you say it is and primarily rests on brand-spanking new material to link Dalaran to the Tomb of Sargaeras. And as Dalaran's first appearance as a hub shows, having a strong connection isn't one of Blizzard's criteria at all. Dalaran didn't have one to the war against the Lich King back in Wrath. They went up there for something completely unrelated, the Nexus War against Malygos.
Well, Dalaran is a done deal for this expansion. But it would be very nice to have the next "neutral" hub come from the Horde instead of the usual Alliance hand-me-downs.

I am intrigued to see how Blizzard explains the Blood Elves coming back to Dal, though...or if they even bother acknowledging the history between the two nations. I think it would take a pretty incredible offer to entice the Blood Elves back, especially when they are potent magic users themselves and in possession of a substantial navy, so they don't need Dal to get to the Broken Isles.
08/13/2015 08:54 AMPosted by Kyalin
08/12/2015 05:22 AMPosted by Dorcy
In a recent Dalaran thread I asked posters, Alliance and Horde alike, how they would feel if the Dalaran situation were reversed. I got a little conspiracy theory mongering and burden shifting from Healstime, but otherwise the question got lost to the flow of discussion. Which is fair, it could be seen as an off topic digression, and it isn't an easy question.

So here, it's own topic. Imagine, instead of Dalaran, the hub was to be a Horde themed fortress, town or base, with an associated Horde aligned faction, and led by a Horde NPC that is friendly with the Alliance. No other information, but mirror the situation with Khadgar, Dalaran and the Kirin Tor as much as you can. Or, since we don't know enough about Khadgar, Dalran and the Kirin Tor in the next expansion, mirror the situation with Rhonin, Aethas and Vareesa in Lich King as much as you can.

If you're a Horde player how does it make you feel to have art assets, territory and Horde resources being made available to Alliance players. If you're an Alliance player, how does it feel to have to rely on and make use of Horde art assets, territory and resources to be successful?

If you're a Horde player, how does it feel to get significant story progression related to a Horde faction at the price of it taking a stance of neutrality in the war between the Alliance and Horde?

If you're an Alliance player, how does it feel to not get significant story progression related to an Alliance faction because Blizzard opted to only develop this single hub?


Without looking at the back and forth that has gone on between this and my posting - I would say that the tactic in general sucks and needs to go away.

I get that you don't like having to rely on Alliance art assets. As a Night Elf player who constantly has to rely on human art assets, I sympathize with you 100%.

I would only ask you to consider the other side of this as well - Alliance players in general have not appreciated having their themes exported to the Horde just so that the developers can avoid the extra work. It has produced some very inconsistent lore, and in the case of one race in particular (you know where this is going), it has been used to demolish the leadership and make the playable race into a shell.

This practice helps no one. So I would feel that "Horde Dalaran" would need to go.


Well I appreciate that you have a strong opinion on the subject, I'm not actually asking you for an explanation of how the Alliance feels about their themes being 'exported' to the Horde when they are shared. I've asked Horde players how they would feel about Horde themes being exported to the Alliance and the majority that responded were largely positive for various reasons.

As someone who vocally identifies as an Alliance player, I'm asking you how you would feel having to operate out of a base that was comprised of assets shared from the Horde side of the equation, for a change. The closest you came to answering that was to express annoyance at having to operate out of an Alliance city... should I take that to be your answer?

In regards to you relating to me 100% I appreciate the understanding, particularly given that we've had strong words in the past but... I'm actually not expressing frustration or even disappointment. My goal is to start a dialogue and gain an understanding of where the story community at large stands on this issue. I have a preference concerning where we quest out of based on where I want the story of WoW to proceed, of course, but I hold this preference with the understanding that Blizzard may be writing a story very different from the one I'd prefer and so my own preferences may be unviable.

Still though, the topic of multiple hubs versus a shared hub is an interesting one. Certainly worth the discussion and dedicated attention it would get in its own thread. I could start one if you'd like, or you could?
What lore am I not considering? The purge? the tuaren?

Horde heavy earthen ring Hosting a hub in Neltherians lair could be interesting. Voljin leading a the charge in a Zandalar expansion could make sense.


Okay first off, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the point you are arguing. Your claim was that it 'didn't make sense in lore.' So, from my standpoint all I need to do is prove that Goblins have airships, easily done, and that Gallywix has a huge air-ship, done. I can link you the screen shots and short story if you need it.

You're now arguing that Gallywix's air ship of doom, as an example, has no connection to the lore. But in so doing you ignore that the connection to the lore has never been a requirement for a hub to be viable for an expansion. Dalaran had no connection to Titan and old god lore, but that didn't stop them from leading our adventurers into Ulduar.

Secondly, a connection to the lore can be written in and explained during the expansion. It's actually easier to write in a connection to the lore from the position of a blank slate, rather than having to cope with all the comic book baggage that comes from Aegwynn and the Council of Tirisfal. Which, by the way, is why I will place money on the Council of Tirisfal not getting anything more than an honorable mention and Aegwynn getting written out of the plot completely with the passing phrase "But Medivh was born with the corruption of Sargeras already in his soul."

08/13/2015 09:54 AMPosted by Steppenvwulf
I want solid story through the zones as well as Dalaran politics. But If their not going to tell a great political story and half !@# it why bother?

As far as aesthetics go, would a solution be to have the floating goblin city attached to or orbiting dalaran. Instead of giving the Horde section of the city. Or perhaps Horde shaman raise a small island to fly along with Dalaran.


Well sure, don't we all. But resources are not infinite, nor are developers trained and able to work on WoW. Ultimately we'll get what we get and Dalaranian politics goes into the 'medium desire to see' pile for me.

As far as solutions go, there are no solutions here because there isn't an aesthetics problem, at least not for me. Next expansion we will fight out of Dalaran, it will be the hub and depending on how they reskin it I may even like it. This thread isn't about fixing a problem, it's about how people would feel if something different happened instead.
I wouldn't mind seeing a Horde-themed hub. Maybe something trollish?
08/13/2015 10:44 AMPosted by Dorcy
Okay first off, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the point you are arguing. Your claim was that it 'didn't make sense in lore.' So, from my standpoint all I need to do is prove that Goblins have airships, easily done, and that Gallywix has a huge air-ship, done. I can link you the screen shots and short story if you need it.


I was never trying to claim goblins didn't or couldn't have airships. It was always that Dalaran was relevant to the tomb and alliance and horde working together given pre-existing lore, historical and recent and therefore a stronger choice.

08/13/2015 10:44 AMPosted by Dorcy
Dalaran had no connection to Titan and old god lore, but that didn't stop them from leading our adventurers into Ulduar.


08/13/2015 10:04 AMPosted by Scryll
Dalaran didn't have one to the war against the Lich King back in Wrath. They went up there for something completely unrelated, the Nexus War against Malygos.


these are good points. Dalaran was in Northrend to deal with one of the first major threats WotLK, then the fight moved on. Hopefully there is more than one major content patch and we don't just squat in the city the whole time.

08/13/2015 10:44 AMPosted by Dorcy
Secondly, a connection to the lore can be written in and explained during the expansion. It's actually easier to write in a connection to the lore from the position of a blank slate, rather than having to cope with all the comic book baggage that comes from Aegwynn and the Council of Tirisfal. Which, by the way, is why I will place money on the Council of Tirisfal not getting anything more than an honorable mention and Aegwynn getting written out of the plot completely with the passing phrase "But Medivh was born with the corruption of Sargeras already in his soul."


Its substantial history in the game though, the cant write her out.... right?
I was never trying to claim goblins didn't or couldn't have airships. It was always that Dalaran was relevant to the tomb and alliance and horde working together given pre-existing lore, historical and recent and therefore a stronger choice.


Okay, my mistake then.

You're probably still wrong about Dalaran being a stronger choice. Frankly it's impossible to say because we don't know what we're comparing it to but, enough of Dalaran's pre-existing lore is problematic or difficult to craft a new story around that frankly it comes out as a net loss.

The Council of Tirisfal has gone 11 years completely unreferenced in game. It existed only as a justification for the abilities of the Guardian of Tirisfalen, a terrible idea that has also gone 11 years completely unreferenced in game. Oh, and Me'dan was the last Guardian of Tirisfalen, so.... consider that the death rattle here.

And that's Dalaran's only connection to the tomb of Sargeras, an idea Blizzard has spent 11 years pretending never happened.

Embarassing lore counts for less than no lore when it comes to writing a good story.

08/13/2015 11:38 AMPosted by Steppenvwulf
Its substantial history in the game though, the cant write her out.... right?


Not only can they cut it out, but the story would flow more smoothly for it. Hell, if they cut it out, fans of The Last Guardian will do their job for them and make up theories about the Council of Tirisfal erasing records of the Guardians existence from Dalaran during the third war. So there's no downside to it, and excising that part of the story would get Blizzard out of having to explain a great big moldy lump of novelization and comic book to players in game.
08/12/2015 06:57 PMPosted by Steppenvwulf
I'm Optomistic, but I do hope the city gets significant updates and the city leadership becomes more diverse. Like council of six either recruits more diverse members or Khadgar replaces them with a new Order of tirisfal, with different races and classes.


He wouldn't be able to do that without the rest of the Council of Six agreeing to it. not to mention to be on the Council, you need to be a member of the Kirin Tor.
According to devs there is a connection between the Tomb and Dalaran.

Its not random considering the origins of Dalaran and the Council of Tirisfal. Dalaran was relevant before the guardians and the reason for council of Tirisfals creation. Horde Sealab, while I'm sure very impressive considering horde Shamans, Mages and Goblin Tech, is random and has no established lore connecting to the main threat of the Expansion. Same with the Goblin Air City. random.


Unless Aegwynn took something back with her when she buried the avatar, there is nothing connecting Dalaran to the Tomb. The only connection is tenuous, ie Aegwynn. Not Dalaran itself, but someone who lived in Dalaran.
From my perspective, a Horde hub of any type would be a refreshing change. I would be all in favour of any type of Horde hub.

If, I had my way, I would make it a Forsaken mage hub. I like the idea of developing a faction within the Forsaken that is willing to pursue pan-Azeroth goals. I think it would give an opening to develop the Forsaken story in a productive manner.

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