It all seems so random

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08/07/2015 10:04 AMPosted by Proximo
08/07/2015 09:47 AMPosted by Daneel
...

Moose mount? How could you possibly turn down a moose mount?


A moose once bit my sister.


Mind you, møøse bites kan be pretti nasti.
08/07/2015 08:39 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's never random and it's not that things are "taken away" so much as changed or just not added into the next expansion. There are generally reasons behind it all even if they aren't terribly transparent (though we try to explain what as much as we can.)

Sometimes it's an issue of compounding design that gets overly cumbersome and so it's better to move on with something newer than to keep iterating on the same thing.

Sometimes it's better to iterate on something and change it up than leave it stagnating.

Sometimes it's just a question of "does this make sense as a part of the next expansion?" If the answer is "no" and it's not part of the story and progression of that story, then it doesn't move on.

There are myriad reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing what we can to answer what we can for you.


here is a thought for the blue. Instead of hiding and avoiding these forums make daily or weekly posts. silence is not helping your company. silence is making people give up on you and quit.

Grow up and address the people that feel wronged by your actions. Stop avoding the issues while you still have loyal fans.
08/07/2015 09:06 AMPosted by Magarith
That is possibly my only real concern, how much time will the artifact weapon take up for a single character


I think this is a good question. I still think other weapons should be available, besides these, say for alts. One thing they don't seem to get is that many people don't like "forced" content, especially people who like to play a lot of alts.

I know the hip argument is that you should work just as hard on every alt, because that's what playing an alt means. I disagree. Too many times, I feel like I'm always getting ready to play, instead of actually just playing the class and doing the fun stuff. Yes, I want to do the fun stuff. It's a game.

That said, I don't mind a certain amount of "work," but I'd rather that the work be challenging stuff. Grinding isn't generally challenging in this game, it's just time consuming (and boring).

Edit: It would be nice if there were options for different play styles. A tougher more challenging way to earn things for those who prefer that or the long, ez mode, grind. Choices are good.
08/07/2015 08:40 AMPosted by Draenybrit
So what was wrong with Scenarios (for example)? Couldn't they have improved on them in WoD and Legion instead of throwing them away?


I wish they would have.
08/07/2015 08:39 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's never random and it's not that things are "taken away" so much as changed or just not added into the next expansion. There are generally reasons behind it all even if they aren't terribly transparent (though we try to explain what as much as we can.)

Sometimes it's an issue of compounding design that gets overly cumbersome and so it's better to move on with something newer than to keep iterating on the same thing.

Sometimes it's better to iterate on something and change it up than leave it stagnating.

Sometimes it's just a question of "does this make sense as a part of the next expansion?" If the answer is "no" and it's not part of the story and progression of that story, then it doesn't move on.

There are myriad reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing what we can to answer what we can for you.


What the hell was the point of removing reforging?
I get all the complaints about the garrison grind and being stuck in the garrison all the time, but then again when it first came out it was almost universally loved. many of us put a lot of work into our garrisons, and now it's just going to be thrown away in Legion? Why couldn't they simply have built on the concept and made changes to the formula based on player feedback?

now when players take alts through the leveling process, how are garrisons going to be utilized between 90-100? most players will do the bare minimum I suppose, which then makes so much of the previous content useless. What about the Legendary ring questline? The post 100 garrison support questlines? What about recruiting followers and leveling them up with War Mills, or leveling up bodyguards? So is all of that stuff pointless now?

It just feels so fast to be dropping it ... I would have rather seen garrisons carried over to be rebuilt on the new continent as a base of operations against the Legion, with gameplay lessons from Draenor applied, instead of ditching the concept altogether. Really disappointing IMO.
08/07/2015 11:20 AMPosted by Magetron
I get all the complaints about the garrison grind and being stuck in the garrison all the time, but then again when it first came out it was almost universally loved. many of us put a lot of work into our garrisons, and now it's just going to be thrown away in Legion? Why couldn't they simply have built on the concept and made changes to the formula based on player feedback?

now when players take alts through the leveling process, how are garrisons going to be utilized between 90-100? most players will do the bare minimum I suppose, which then makes so much of the previous content useless. What about the Legendary ring questline? The post 100 garrison support questlines? What about recruiting followers and leveling them up with War Mills, or leveling up bodyguards? So is all of that stuff pointless now?

It just feels so fast to be dropping it ... I would have rather seen garrisons carried over to be rebuilt on the new continent as a base of operations against the Legion, with gameplay lessons from Draenor applied, instead of ditching the concept altogether. Really disappointing IMO.


Yep. especially as they've been saying that they know we like garrisons. BTW: The Legendary quest line is pretty sure to be going away. Just like the MoP one went away.
08/07/2015 08:39 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's never random and it's not that things are "taken away" so much as changed or just not added into the next expansion. There are generally reasons behind it all even if they aren't terribly transparent (though we try to explain what as much as we can.)

Sometimes it's an issue of compounding design that gets overly cumbersome and so it's better to move on with something newer than to keep iterating on the same thing.

Sometimes it's better to iterate on something and change it up than leave it stagnating.

Sometimes it's just a question of "does this make sense as a part of the next expansion?" If the answer is "no" and it's not part of the story and progression of that story, then it doesn't move on.

There are myriad reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing what we can to answer what we can for you.


How do scenarios not make sense in WoD - or any post-Mists of Pandaria expansion? The ability to provide engaging, sometimes even quite challenging, content that a player can complete while solo or in a very small group seems like an invaluable tool; something the developers would keep in their tool belt, not even their tool box, and make frequent use of, especially when there was a highly noticeable lack of end-game content this expansion.

No explanation was provided as to why there were no scenarios this expansion (with the exception of a few garrison/legendary quests - the infiltration of the fortress during the Garona quest for instance). They just ceased to be.
But artifacts are cool... I like the Ashbringer.
08/07/2015 10:21 AMPosted by Lissanna
What we know is that the class hall is a space where everyone from your class will go to. If they don't give us any reason to care about going there, then the feature is pointless. Right now, my whole class of druids can go to moonglade - but no one goes to moonglade anymore because there isn't a reason to care. If they made moonglade more awesome, then I'll want to go there.


I suspect that Class/Order Halls will have a few quest and customization options like a garrison (dailies, campaigns, crafting stations, artifact forges, a mission interface for champions). They'll be a shared space for the whole class, which may cut down on the isolating nature of garrisons.

I also suspect most any Hall will be substantially upgraded with new graphics and so on, reflecting Legion's general specifics - Light's Hope may still look like something from Vanilla, but the Cloister under it - the Paladin class hub - will be prettified to Legion's art standards. Archerus and Moonglade and Light's Hope might not get a full update, but the rooms relevant to the Legion expansion will.
08/07/2015 08:39 AMPosted by Nethaera

There are myriad reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing what we can to answer what we can for you.


You said myriad twice in one sentence you could have added more

"There are a myriad of reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing a myriad of things to answer the myriad of questions/comments."

that's a myriad better
08/07/2015 08:32 AMPosted by Draenybrit
So why does it feel like Blizzard is just throwing Random stuff at us to see if it sticks, abandoning it if it doesn't, and trying something else?

That's because Blizzard doesn't design their own games anymore. People complain about not listening to the community enough, but that's exactly what they do. Too often. In fact, they base every design choice around what will make them lose or gain subscribers. I'm not saying that's wrong (I will expand on that in a moment) or that the game is !@#$. My opinions on the subject don't matter here. I'm just saying that to understand why the game is the way it is, you have to understand that basic fact. Blizzard isn't the same team of cool, gamer devs trying to make the best game they can anymore. They're a team of professionals trying to keep a (nearly) 11 year old game alive by reading the community, and designing around them.

Just watch Blizzcon 2006 compared to Blizzcon 2014 for an example of the attitude change. It's not like Blizzard was a small company in 2006, don't be fooled by the fact that Blizzcon was so small back then. You can see in their presentation that they are deeply invested into the game, not just as developers, but as players. They say "This is how it is now, this is why it is %^-*, and here's what we're doing to make it not !@#$". To the point, understandable, and logical to their playerbase. The "problem" starts when it stops being about making the players happy, and becomes about making the largest amount of players possible stick around.

A good game is generally made by saying "%^-* you, this is the vision of my game, and we're going to carry it out and make sure it's fun". It may not be the game YOU want, but it has the potential to be great (if it was a great idea in the first place of course). Blizzard game design now is based around keeping subscribers. That should mean it's fun, right? Why would anyone pay 15$ (or 20$ now) a month for an unfun game? Well, what may be a fun game for the audience Blizzard is after may not be a fun game for you. I can't say it's wrong for them to shift toward a different style of game, WoW very well may have died by now if they stuck with their core audience from back then. The fact of the matter is, if you're upset with how the game is playing out, you're likely in the minority. If you're the type of person who is sticking with WoW because Heroic and Mythic raiding can still be a great challenge, you are in the minority. If you seriously PvP instead of watching high ranking PvPers on Twitch, you are in the minority. The core audience of this game has changed, remove your own feelings from the situation and look at that simple fact. It's not right or wrong, it just is. Blizzard cannot afford to make games for the minority anymore, and WoW has gone too far in this direction to even try to do that anyways. Regardless of what they have said in the past, Activision has a say in what happens with this game, and Blizzard is obligated to make it worthwhile for them.

TL;DR: Blizzard does not design games around gamers, they design them around their core audience, the general public. This is not wrong or right, it's just a fact, and it's been essential in keeping the game alive as long as it has.
So why does it feel like Blizzard is just throwing Random stuff at us to see if it sticks, abandoning it if it doesn't, and trying something else?


This is like the central tenet of good design. Not just game design but software design, UI design, art design, everything. You try new stuff, you keep what works, you drop what doesn't work. When you keep the stuff that doesn't work around, you get bloat and problems and lack of focus and you spend a lot of time and effort working on keeping something up to date that you don't even like or think is good, and you distract from the good stuff you are adding or the new stuff you are trying or the stuff that worked that you're trying to make into a more central focus.

I like that they try new stuff. I like that they abandon stuff that doesn't work. I like that they take risks. If anything I wish they took more risks.

Leveling, Questing, Dungeons, and Raiding, Professions are all doing the same thing over and over, in new environments.


This could not be further from the truth.

The questing experience in Vanilla is barely recognizable compared to the questing experience in WoD. Every expansion has seen huge sweeping changes in how they accomplish story telling during the leveling experience and how they separate quests and quest hubs and how they deliver those to players. How they set up random quests and vignettes and events and rares and quest flow and number of quests you're on at once and the sequence of those quests and how you can cherry pick them (or not) has been changed in literally every expansion, and almost always in the direction of being overall better for most players.

Dungeons and the expectations of what a dungeon is and what you do in dungeons has likewise changed in nearly every expansion, sometimes multiple times during the same expansion.

Raiding has constantly been evolving and changing and improving, sometimes taking steps back and usually taking leaps forward. Not just in encounter design but in pacing and loot amount and loot strength and distribution and how much trash and how difficult that trash is and how that trash informs you about the bosses or the lore that trash adds.

Professions have changed a lot, too, changing what you make to level up, how much of it you make, how many mats it requires, how quickly you can do it, whether or not there's a point where only the most dedicated players will be able to cap the profession or not, the power and usefulness of the items created by the professions, whether you have personal profession bonuses or not and how powerful and influential those are and how they balance against each other.

To say that questing, dungeons, raiding, and professions are now the same as they were even one expansions ago is completely disingenuous and doesn't reflect the state of the game or its systems in any way at all.

Instead of not doing Legendary stuff and doing Artifact stuff, couldn't they have done a unique Legendary for each class or something.


I don't understand the distinction, apart from the name of the system and that it's actually more fleshed out and a bigger part of the game than just being class-specific legendaries. If you wanted class-specific legendaries, artifacts are that and much more along with it.
08/07/2015 08:39 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's never random and it's not that things are "taken away" so much as changed or just not added into the next expansion. There are generally reasons behind it all even if they aren't terribly transparent (though we try to explain what as much as we can.)

Sometimes it's an issue of compounding design that gets overly cumbersome and so it's better to move on with something newer than to keep iterating on the same thing.

Sometimes it's better to iterate on something and change it up than leave it stagnating.

Sometimes it's just a question of "does this make sense as a part of the next expansion?" If the answer is "no" and it's not part of the story and progression of that story, then it doesn't move on.

There are myriad reasons for myriad design changes and we'll keep doing what we can to answer what we can for you.


There isn't much of a reason not to carry some things going forward though.

Ok, you don't want to have a new area with Mists farms going forward. What's to stop you from putting in a new seed vendor near the ranch to sell seeds for cooking mats for that current expansion? Is there anything inherently wrong from a design perspective to giving us reasons to visit old zones in prior expansions?

I honestly think this is the key thing wrong with Warcraft right now. Once something "new" hits, you give absolutely no reason to stick with the old. Instead of the game's options getting more and more numerous, you kind of just take things away every time you move forward, and there doesn't seem to be much rhyme nor reason for it. Last expansion this was extremely prevalent when you removed Valor farming so you gave no reason to run 5 mans once you got any kind of gear.

It's really not hard to come up with reasons to do old content, and this is something you NEED to fix going forward. Yeah, the next expansion looks somewhat neat I guess, but you guys gave absolutely no sign that you know what's currently wrong with your design and are doing anything to fix it going forward.
I really would like to hear the reasons why balance druids still do not have a single update to their model but ferals are getting yet another slew of new models after getting a claws of shirvallah form that nobody asked for. I just want to be a space chicken that doesn't have copy and pasted clipart feathers! :(
08/07/2015 01:06 PMPosted by Nerodius
So why does it feel like Blizzard is just throwing Random stuff at us to see if it sticks, abandoning it if it doesn't, and trying something else?


This is like the central tenet of good design. Not just game design but software design, UI design, art design, everything. You try new stuff, you keep what works, you drop what doesn't work. When you keep the stuff that doesn't work around, you get bloat and problems and lack of focus and you spend a lot of time and effort working on keeping something up to date that you don't even like or think is good, and you distract from the good stuff you are adding or the new stuff you are trying or the stuff that worked that you're trying to make into a more central focus.

I like that they try new stuff. I like that they abandon stuff that doesn't work. I like that they take risks. If anything I wish they took more risks.

Leveling, Questing, Dungeons, and Raiding, Professions are all doing the same thing over and over, in new environments.


This could not be further from the truth.

The questing experience in Vanilla is barely recognizable compared to the questing experience in WoD. Every expansion has seen huge sweeping changes in how they accomplish story telling during the leveling experience and how they separate quests and quest hubs and how they deliver those to players. How they set up random quests and vignettes and events and rares and quest flow and number of quests you're on at once and the sequence of those quests and how you can cherry pick them (or not) has been changed in literally every expansion, and almost always in the direction of being overall better for most players.

Dungeons and the expectations of what a dungeon is and what you do in dungeons has likewise changed in nearly every expansion, sometimes multiple times during the same expansion.

Raiding has constantly been evolving and changing and improving, sometimes taking steps back and usually taking leaps forward. Not just in encounter design but in pacing and loot amount and loot strength and distribution and how much trash and how difficult that trash is and how that trash informs you about the bosses or the lore that trash adds.

Professions have changed a lot, too, changing what you make to level up, how much of it you make, how many mats it requires, how quickly you can do it, whether or not there's a point where only the most dedicated players will be able to cap the profession or not, the power and usefulness of the items created by the professions, whether you have personal profession bonuses or not and how powerful and influential those are and how they balance against each other.

To say that questing, dungeons, raiding, and professions are now the same as they were even one expansions ago is completely disingenuous and doesn't reflect the state of the game or its systems in any way at all.

Instead of not doing Legendary stuff and doing Artifact stuff, couldn't they have done a unique Legendary for each class or something.


I don't understand the distinction, apart from the name of the system and that it's actually more fleshed out and a bigger part of the game than just being class-specific legendaries. If you wanted class-specific legendaries, artifacts are that and much more along with it.


That's my point. Questing, Dungeons, Raiding, Professions all evolved and got better. While other stuff was tried and thrown away, instead of evolving and getting better. I wasn't saying they (questing etc.) were the same, just that the features were carried forward.
You said "it's stayed the same." That is completely different from "it's evolved."
08/07/2015 11:46 AMPosted by Hobb
08/07/2015 10:21 AMPosted by Lissanna
What we know is that the class hall is a space where everyone from your class will go to. If they don't give us any reason to care about going there, then the feature is pointless. Right now, my whole class of druids can go to moonglade - but no one goes to moonglade anymore because there isn't a reason to care. If they made moonglade more awesome, then I'll want to go there.


I suspect that Class/Order Halls will have a few quest and customization options like a garrison (dailies, campaigns, crafting stations, artifact forges, a mission interface for champions). They'll be a shared space for the whole class, which may cut down on the isolating nature of garrisons.

I also suspect most any Hall will be substantially upgraded with new graphics and so on, reflecting Legion's general specifics - Light's Hope may still look like something from Vanilla, but the Cloister under it - the Paladin class hub - will be prettified to Legion's art standards. Archerus and Moonglade and Light's Hope might not get a full update, but the rooms relevant to the Legion expansion will.


Updating the looks and adding some quests still doesn't answer the question of what will it have to keep me coming back. Once I've completed whatever quests there are or finish off any reputation grind it might have what is its function? If it is just to run dailies I won't be back once I'm done getting what I needed to progress quest lines or reputation. Likewise I really don't care to have a place to hang out with other Paladins. DK's have Acherus and the only reason I even go there occasionally is to add a rune to my weapon which is actually an inconvenience. I hate to see a lot of effort being put on Class Halls like they did with Garrisons when providing world content, dungeons and raids would be better for the player base.
08/07/2015 08:32 AMPosted by Draenybrit
We had Garrisons in WoD, and instead of building on that and giving us instanced Housing or anything in Legion, they just abandoned the concept entirely, and we get Guild Halls instead.


Regretfully, Garrisons are an example of something that looked incredible on paper, but when actually delivered they didn't have the desired result.

The huge problem that I had with garrisons was that they had the feel of an online f2p game. This is spoken as the developer of an online f2p game.

This is not something that WoW needs, since it is not a f2p game, and even if it did become f2p, it would not want to rely on the same mechanics as the game I work on. Doing that would kill it, since it would change the game out of all recognition.

IF garrisons had been more "group combat centric" they might have had a chance. But as a glorified crafting hub, with a couple of builtin freemium games (follower missions and the shipyard), they turned out to be a poor match for the core design of WoW.

Oh, and on a completely unrelated topic, if the Rogue Class Hall is not at Ravenholdt Manor, someone did it wrong. ;)

-- Edit: Disambiguation --
08/07/2015 02:09 PMPosted by Nerodius
You said "it's stayed the same." That is completely different from "it's evolved."


The feature remained the same. The underlying feature.

And BTW: I said 'Doing the same thing over and over' actually, which is what questing, Dungeons, and Raiding are.

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