Blizzard, you're doing it again

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08/20/2015 06:23 AMPosted by Menrva
08/20/2015 06:18 AMPosted by Nixx
...

Let's see how this goes, assuming this thread doesn't momentarily cap.


Actually whoever transcribed the interview on wowheads website invented "weeks, not months". That wording is never used in the interview and everyone just took it as the exact wording.


You can watch it for yourself right here. Starts at 46:23 https://youtu.be/WHtglUq5_0g?t=46m23s

"I would say weeks more than months"
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.
Yeah, I think this is more condemning: "There's no question there will be some people who have the pathfinder achievement before flying is available. Certainly, if you've been using those items that give you a thousand rep to all and.." That is a much more solid timeline considering we can calculate the exact amount of days require to get that reputation up, even without those tokens, is 19 days tops with the Hand of the Prophet. Even if we double that to 38 days for missed days, they've completely missed that more defined answer.
---WARNING: HERE THERE BE PERSONAL OPINION DRAGONS---

The whole "weeks, not months" thing makes an easy example. At the time that was said, we firmly believed that it would only take us a few weeks to polish off Tanaan and fix a few areas we knew were likely to have some bugs, and then we'd roll out the flying patch. It's easy enough, right? We just change a few 0's to 1's and it's all done.

Then we started finding a lot more bugs and glitches than we expected. We found tiny pockets of the world that weren't properly obeying the flight rules, and would drop players to their deaths if you happened to fly through them. We found issues with certain mounts and class abilities that were caused by hotfixes to resolve exploits, which resulted in those mounts and abilities not working. We found situations in which if you fly into your Garrison at juuuuust the right angle, you get disconnected and can't get back onto your character for a good half hour or so.

Finding those bugs, implementing fixes, testing those fixes, finding more bugs (sometimes caused by those fixes)... it all added up to a lot more work being needed to actually enable flying than we had originally expected. And as a result, what we originally thought would only take a few weeks ended up taking a couple months.


Lore,

As a government IT manager I feel your pain. The average user/player is concerned with what is in front of them. It not very often goes beyond that. I have an incredibly dedicated Systems Admin working massive amounts of overtime to get our legacy servers upgraded from Server 08 to 2012. She works tirelessly to get things just right, and the only way we know that we've done our jobs correctly is if there are no complaints. We have upgraded server after server with no notice, other then improvements in speed, without complaint. We were given incorrect information about a single piece of software, and when we upgraded this program broke. There was a fix, but it took time. Because that software broke, 2 other programs that drew information from it corrupted. So after months of well planned, worry free upgrades, I had an entire department questioning her abilities. It's amazing how difficult it was to show them how much good she had done, when all the department seemed to be focused on was the software difficulty that caused a domino effect.

Basically what I'm trying to say, is thank you for being honest, and thank you for continuing to put out great content in a game and universe I love being a part of. My interest has come and gone over the years. I wasn't quite dedicated enough to get the orc statue by a few months. The day I stop playing will not be over a patch release date, a talent shuffle or lack of communication. It will be because I feel that my toons story arc has finished. Thank you for putting a story in front of me that has kept me engaged for all these years, and bring on the Legion!
Lore I'm sorry but I feel like flying is being delayed for reasons besides bugs and that is to make sure Legion preorders are ready so you have some really good pr right as preorders become available. I mean you did have this string in the ptr added after all.
PRE_PURCHASE_EXPANSION:: Pre-purchase Now
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.


This is what I would consider good communication on the internal process. Thank you for the clarity.
08/20/2015 01:11 PMPosted by Mirs
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.


Well then maybe don't tell the people on the bus that they'll be departing promptly at 9AM, and then come back 15 minutes later and say "Well, actually, maybe 9. I don't know yet. Don't get your hopes up." :^)

Come on dude, you're writing these big posts when all you really need to say is "Yeah we screwed up when we put that article up, we shouldn't have set things in stone like that. Sorry."


He already apologized and said all of this. Go back and read.
08/20/2015 01:09 PMPosted by Jonadin
if you've been using those items that give you a thousand rep to all


I feel bad for the people that paid all that gold for those early on.
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

Why was flying bundled with mercenary mode, timewalking rewards, new DMF pets, and new Halloween rewards? Most of that stuff was in 6.2.1 also. Would they have been disabled somehow, if 6.2.1 had gone live?

It seemed to us like flying was essentially ready to go in early August. Perhaps not perfect; there might have been a few dismounts hidden throughout the world or whatever, but those could have been patched later on. We expected it to go live then. Personally, that's why I'm upset.

I'm also very upset about delaying flying in Legion, but that's a slightly different discussion.
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.


Yes, Yes, it all makes sense, but to continue your analogy. You didn't tell the folks at the buses' destination that there would be a delay. In fact, you left them with the impression that the VIP was speedily enroute. And when the folks at the destination saw a bus that looked identical to the VIP's bus and it drove on past, they understandably got peeved and started wondering where the VIP was, and without any information from the Bus company or the VIP's staff the the people waiting for the VIP started drawing their own conclusions as to what happened, why the delay and so forth.

It all comes down to TELL US THE TRUTH... even if it sucks we'll at least KNOW what is happening and WHY.

Because what you have now created among many in your subscriber base is animosity toward the expansion, toward the devs and toward the company. And it was an unnecessary and unforced error. We know you want us to believe what you say... You had that and scattered it, now to get it back you really have to earn that trust and willingness to believe.
08/20/2015 01:17 PMPosted by Seranthor
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.


Yes, Yes, it all makes sense, but to continue your analogy. You didn't tell the folks at the buses' destination that there would be a delay. In fact, you left them with the impression that the VIP was speedily enroute. And when the folks at the destination saw a bus that looked identical to the VIP's bus and it drove on past, they understandably got peeved and started wondering where the VIP was, and without any information from the Bus company or the VIP's staff the the people waiting for the VIP started drawing their own conclusions as to what happened, why the delay and so forth.

It all comes down to TELL US THE TRUTH... even if it sucks we'll at least KNOW what is happening and WHY.

They did tell you the truth. They apologized for not having flight ready, what more do you want? Deal with it or leave, there isn't much that we can do.
08/19/2015 05:18 PMPosted by Lyceus
"We intend" has now changed to "we plan". Just another slick little "out" they are leaving themselves so they can once again go "psych!" or "We never PROMISED!"


This type of behavior is to be expected from buy in betas on Steam. Not Blizzard.

I have seen this a few times

Remember when Blizzard had integrity
Pepperidge Farm Remembers.
What if they didn't, and then something went wrong and the patch got delayed? There would be a massive uproar.

Oh wait, there would be a massive uproar anyway....
No they wouldn't

All they would have to do is make a post here stating what went wrong and that they are working hard to fix it.

That is why people are mad. Because that second part NEVER happens anymore.


They're also mad because at the end of the day, all Blizzard says these days is: We shouldn't have said that. Our bad.

Stop saying things you shouldn't because you know you'll change them, or stop saying things you shouldn't because you're clueless about the future. Its really simple. Yet the last year has just been the same comment over and over again:

"Yeah, communication fail on our end. :/ Not much I can do at this point but apologize. I definitely understand the disappointment."

So either we have to believe you guys can't manage to get much of anything right as far as deadlines or content, or we need to assume that you're saying anything you can to appease people and then saying "whoops" when you get caught.
But they didn't say the word 'promise' so they don't really have to do anything!
08/20/2015 01:17 PMPosted by Seranthor
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.


Yes, Yes, it all makes sense, but to continue your analogy. You didn't tell the folks at the buses' destination that there would be a delay. In fact, you left them with the impression that the VIP was speedily enroute. And when the folks at the destination saw a bus that looked identical to the VIP's bus and it drove on past, they understandably got peeved and started wondering where the VIP was, and without any information from the Bus company or the VIP's staff the the people waiting for the VIP started drawing their own conclusions as to what happened, why the delay and so forth.

It all comes down to TELL US THE TRUTH... even if it sucks we'll at least KNOW what is happening and WHY.

Because what you have now created among many in your subscriber base is animosity toward the expansion, toward the devs and toward the company. And it was an unnecessary and unforced error. We know you want us to believe what you say... You had that and scattered it, now to get it back you really have to earn that trust and willingness to believe.


This analogy is starting to give me a headache.
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with fligh


Thanks as always for your continued communication Lore. I have to say, this part of your post really stood out to me though. Is there a reason that after being in the game for 8 years that flying should not have been "EXTEMELY smoothly" put back in?

The most annoying part (other than the actual removal of flight) of the entire flying situation to me personally is how the story changed so many times. Given that well before launch the word was flight would be added at a later time in the patch, even at one point 6.1 was said to be the flying patch. It would seem that if the plan was to add flight as early as 6.1, just about all the preliminary work to have flying should have been done long ago, especially considering again that it has been in the game for 8 years and the technical aspects of it should be well known by now.

Again, thanks for the posts. Please don't make us wait another 10 months for flight in Legion.
08/20/2015 01:11 PMPosted by Mirs
Come on dude, you're writing these big posts when all you really need to say is "Yeah we screwed up when we put that article up, we shouldn't have set things in stone like that. Sorry."

Lore did say that in his first post in this thread.

08/19/2015 08:33 PMPosted by Lore
Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not making excuses here. And I don't at all blame the players who are frustrated and upset that we didn't hit the timeline we originally stated. Honestly, we probably should never have said that it would only take a few weeks. That was clearly a mistake, and I apologize for it.
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.

The core of it comes from our PTR testing process, and the fact that we are blessed with some extremely savvy fansite operators who are capable of combing through patch data, finding nuggets of information, and drawing educated conclusions based on that information. If we'd put, say, the Illidan-themed Murloc pet into the PTR data before Legion was announced, that would have been a pretty big tip-off. At the same time, we needed to get PTR testing for flight underway as quickly as possible, so that we could make sure we found all those silly obnoxious bugs I mentioned in my earlier post.

So, our strategy was to create two separate versions of the patch. 6.2.1 would have all of the relevant patch features (including flight), and 6.2.2 would have everything in 6.2.1 plus the upcoming stuff that the art team has been working on. In the unlikely event that everything went EXTREMELY smoothly with flight, we'd have the option to go ahead and push out 6.2.1, and 6.2.2 would come separately. If not, we'd just carry on with 6.2.2, which was basically the same patch plus some stuff that other parts of the WoW development team had been working on. As you're all aware, things did not go extremely smoothly with flight, so the latter option was what ended up happening.

I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.

That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

One other note: 6.2.1 was briefly labelled as a "Release Candidate" on the PTR prior to the switch to 6.2.2. "Release Candidate" is an internal term we use to basically mean "we think we might have fixed everything." As it turns out, we hadn't. In this case, if we hadn't had the transition to 6.2.2, 6.2.1 would have just stayed as "Release Candidate" until September 1st. But since we had this weird extra "hide your kids" strategy going on with the Legion stuff, the title was switched back as part of the changeover. I completely understand why that looks like "Blizzard delayed the patch to add some pets" to those who aren't familiar with our internal workings.


You knew flight was a complicated issue, likely to require a lot of QA testing...

...so...

...you added some ill-conceived knee-jerk features that required even *more* testing (e.g. the "mercenary system")?

Who thought this a smart idea?

Why are you surprised, given the complete bull!@#$ that you're passing off as "logic", that you're being accused (correctly, imo) of using stall tactics to delay flight?

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