Blizzard, you're doing it again

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08/20/2015 01:44 PMPosted by Zalenus
The sheer audacity of the players in this thread is astounding. Not one of you has any room to criticize or lecture anyone working on this game. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Hopefully, one day, when you people enter the real world, become working professionals and stop living inside your own hubris, you'll understand why.

Thanks team for consistently delivering a top-notch product. I've subscribed to your game for 8 of the past 10 years and I don't foresee that changing any time soon. I for one don't have the knowledge to assume the obstacles that you face during development or deployment and I trust one of the best entertainment companies in the world to continue to deliver a product I will continue to spend money on and enjoy during whatever free time I can muster.


Because you have a different opinion than people doesn't mean they don't have jobs; a truly bizarre and illogical statement/thought process. Dismissing dissenting voices is a great way to have yours dismissed as well. Food for thought.
08/20/2015 01:45 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
08/20/2015 01:31 PMPosted by Lore
and potentially breaking something that (at the time) we weren't sure was even going to matter later


I'm glad we keep getting confirmation now that Blizzard knew all along they intended to keep flight out permanently when all that time the player base was lead to believe that it was still eventually coming.


I repeatedly notice that in what is being said
I just have some very simple questions for Lore or anyone else...

Was removing flight worth it, did we gain anything in return for its loss?

Did it actually accomplish anything other than create a problem where none existed before?

How many resources are being used to undo the removal of flight that could have been used for more content?

Was any lesson learned for Legion or will the same mistake be made again?
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding the transition from 6.2.1 to 6.2.2: we actually had two potential plans that were dependent on how things fell in terms of development timelines, which is why some of what we've said seems contradictory.


Lore, I understand and accept your explanation with full confidence.

What I cannot accept is that you guys are only telling us this now. I understand the data associated with Legion couldn't be leaked, but that announcement was on 8.6.15, and we are at exactly two weeks later! Why couldn't you just tell us this a week ago? It would have made a huge difference to us players and the forums would be a lot more civil.
08/20/2015 01:37 PMPosted by Grummulthrus
So, again: if you suspected that the new content would cause problems with flight, then why did you choose to heap MORE features on top of flying in his patch, knowing that would cause delays and thus upset people?

Because we knew it wouldn't, and it hasn't. None of the other content in 6.2.1/6.2.2 has delayed flying in any way.

There are multiple teams of people here working on multiple things. The people working on fixing up Draenor for flight are not the same people working on Mercenary Mode, or the class tuning changes, or the pets and mounts, etc.
08/20/2015 01:46 PMPosted by Gank
08/20/2015 01:43 PMPosted by Draenybrit
So basically, when you did hotfixes, you were lazy and just thought - it matters not, we're not giving them flying anyway, just go ahead and break it boys.

Which means there never was any "debate on flying" they knew they were planning on never doing ever again for any expansion.


Before I had just thought this might be the case, now the more they say it I'm starting to realize that appears to have been the case all along.
08/20/2015 01:45 PMPosted by Seranthor
08/20/2015 01:31 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding "you should have designed the world with flight from the beginning!" We actually did, we just had to do a lot more development after that, and some of that stuff broke flying in ways we didn't fully anticipate.

For example, when Warlords released, our servers were unable to handle the massive numbers of players trying to log into the game. Our server technicians pulled some absolutely crazy magic to dramatically increase the number of players who could be on a given server at one time. That solved the load issues, but ended up creating a large number of the dismount/de-instancing issues that players who have been testing flight on the PTR will have noticed.

Another example: a few weeks later, some exploits surfaced that were allowing certain players to fly in clearly unintended ways (such as Druids being able to leave Ashran with the Flight Form book still active). We hotfixed those exploits as they came up, but some of those hotfixes broke flying in Draenor in ways that continued even with flying properly enabled.

Obviously, we knew that both of those things were likely to cause some issues, we just severely underestimated how widespread (and difficult to resolve) those issues would be. And we didn't want to delay rolling out those fixes, because they had major implications for the live game (especially the server stuff), where no one was supposed to be able to fly at the time anyway.

Given the choice between letting thousands more people actually play the game and potentially breaking something that (at the time) we weren't sure was even going to matter later, it was an easy decision. But even easy decisions have consequences, and now we're having to deal with those in 6.2.1/6.2.2.


Lore, I have to ask, Why was absolutely none of this communicated 4-6 wks ago? It CERTAINLY would have made a huge difference then.

I dont know about other people, but for me given the options of
1) hard, difficult truth,
2) fake sunshine and fake lollipops and
3) radio silence.

I would without hesitation or reservation chose option number 1.


Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it seems more complicated than that. While you think the truth is the more obvious choice, one could argue that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They told the truth when they said flying wouldn't launch with the start of Warlords. When they decided to release flying, they said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it. People are just looking for things to nit-pick just for the sake of having something to be angry about. Even after we can fly, there will still be daily posts here about it on the forums. There's no such thing as making everyone happy. :(
08/20/2015 01:37 PMPosted by Grummulthrus


So, again: if you suspected that the new content would cause problems with flight, then why did you choose to heap MORE features on top of flying in his patch, knowing that would cause delays and thus upset people?


I'm not sure if you've ever worked with a group of people before, but I hope you realize that an entire dev team can't be focused on one singular aspect of a game. If they do, a problem arises known as "too many cooks in the kitchen." Once you get too many people working on a singular aspect, it effectively stops any work that could actually be done. This happens with a group of people anywhere from 2-infinity. Any task has an effective cap of work that can be done on it at one time.

So, with a group of devs as large as the ones working on WoW it's impossible to have everyone working singularly toward flying, unless they have a far better process than anyone else in the software design industry has. You're going to have people working on lots of different things at the same time.

My point is that this other content isn't added onto this patch to slow down the delivery of flying. Flying would be coming at the same speed that it currently is, but the amount of devs working on the game also allow us to have all this other content as well.

That's far better than waiting 2 months for just flying. You get the deliverables of a project at the same time as a bunch of other goodies. That's pretty good.

EDIT: Lore beat me to it. Much respect to him for taking time out of his (presumably) very busy day to talk with us here. <3


Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it is pretty obvious that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it.


To be honest, a lot of the posts here are angry because we had radio silence. They said it'd be "shortly" after 6.2, and a matter of "weeks, not months" - he later said (YESTERDAY, 2 months in!) that they shouldn't have said that.

Why couldn't he have said that a month ago? The way Lore is talking it seems like they've known for several weeks now that flight was a ways off. Why the posts NOW?

I really, really miss the dev watercoolers. I don't care if it's bad news - I like to hear about how development is going. This silence and then having crap dropped on top of us at random points is getting extremely tiresome.
08/20/2015 01:47 PMPosted by Uellia
Get flying and people still find a reason to complain/Rage.


We still don't have it.


Thats a deliberate obtuse response.
08/20/2015 01:37 PMPosted by Joeyjoejoe
Then maybe you should not delay flying in legion, if these "hotfixes" and such cause so much issues, because than you'll just have the exact same thing happen again!


Difference between Legion and WoD is that ever since preorders started for WoD there was the idea that if it turns out ok, we may not fly at all the whole xpac.

Now for Legion its been already said what their plan is for flight for Legion and future xpacs.
08/20/2015 01:47 PMPosted by Uellia
...

We still don't have it.


Thats a deliberate obtuse response.
It's a simple fact.
08/20/2015 01:50 PMPosted by Mirs
There are currently 2 horde players in the top 500.


the changes are about the queue time to get into a battleground, not who is at the top of things like the arena ladders in the first place. The point still stands that whether or not you agree with a change isn't relevant to the current post about time-schedules for releasing patch content.
08/20/2015 01:49 PMPosted by Lissanna
08/20/2015 01:45 PMPosted by Seranthor
...

Lore, I have to ask, Why was absolutely none of this communicated 4-6 wks ago? It CERTAINLY would have made a huge difference then.

I dont know about other people, but for me given the options of
1) hard, difficult truth,
2) fake sunshine and fake lollipops and
3) radio silence.

I would without hesitation or reservation chose option number 1.


Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it seems more complicated than that. While you think the truth is the more obvious choice, one could argue that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They told the truth when they said flying wouldn't launch with the start of Warlords. When they decided to release flying, they said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it. People are just looking for things to nit-pick just for the sake of having something to be angry about. Even after we can fly, there will still be daily posts here about it on the forums. There's no such thing as making everyone happy. :(


The solution is never radio silence. That's just nonsense.
08/20/2015 01:05 PMPosted by Lore
I'll make a silly analogy. Think of the patch like a bus. This bus is waiting for a high-profile dignitary (flying) to finish up some negotiations, and as soon as she's done with those, she needs to leave to get to another conference. That bus will not leave without the dignitary, and it will leave immediately once she's on board.That said, the bus is also capable of taking on other passengers (who for the sake of the analogy we'll assume are headed to the same place). The longer the dignitary's negotiations take, the more opportunity there is for other passengers to hitch a ride. The other passengers, in this case, are things like Mercenary Mode or the new pets and mounts. If the dignitary had finished unexpectedly quickly, there would be another bus coming by later that could take those passengers, but since she hasn't, the bus company decides to just take one trip instead of two. Make sense?

bus transportation confirmed for legion
08/20/2015 01:14 PMPosted by Sepherin
08/20/2015 01:09 PMPosted by Jonadin
if you've been using those items that give you a thousand rep to all


I feel bad for the people that paid all that gold for those early on.


You shouldn't. I used the medallions on that order of the awakened only because it became tedious for me. I'm thinking that many others did so as well.

I also figured that flying would take awhile to be put back in. I didn't think it would take this long, but I'm not terribly surprised.
I'm just happy that they've decided to continue flying in this game as it's something I use to do my own version of treasure and scavenger hunts.
08/20/2015 01:31 PMPosted by Skotadi
08/20/2015 01:29 PMPosted by Grummulthrus
...

Yes. Did you?

Critical thinking is a real problem with fanboys.


So does disagreeing with someone now = doesn't critical think. Maybe you should do some more thinking yourself as well


So there's a political movement, pro-flyer, now huh?
08/20/2015 01:46 PMPosted by Freakaleek
I understand you are the messenger,


You need to figure out a way to get your message across without the use of 6 analogies, you can't seriously expect anyone to read that.
Hey Lore, while you're reading...flying in Legion. How's it going to work exactly?

Hah, chance of getting a reply approximately 3,720 to 1.

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