Blizzard, you're doing it again

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Folks can we PLEASE not shoot the messenger?

Sheesh.....
Guys, enough with the legalese and all. You have been arguing in circles for pages.

Just let this thread rest.
08/22/2015 02:23 AMPosted by Dinluya
So what's happened here in the last couple of pages is:
1. I've given you Blizzard's definitive statement on flying in November 2013
2. You attempted to dispute it and failed
3. You've tried to deflect this by linking more quotes which were ironically against your argument
4. You are now again trying to make an argument claiming that the statement wasn't definitive and throwing around the words "intent", "plan" etc. again which was not in my statement.

I am not going to go around in circles again. Blizzard's stance on flying was crystal clear in November 2013. Their stance on flying was crystal clear in May 2015. I don't know why you feel like you need to try and find a grey area in a black and white statement when there isn't one. We were dragged along for 18 months without clear and decisive communication on the matter. Quite frankly it was appalling and I hope that it never happens again.

If you still want to continue the argument, you are free go back to argue my previous posts that you deflected. But you won't have much luck.

1. You keep saying definitive despite the fact that nothing they said in 2013 about WoD was or should have been considered definitive.
2. I have demonstrated very easily to anyone who doesn't have an agenda that is contradicted by the truth that Blizzard's development path from 2013 on has evolved considerably, but without the lies or deception claimed by people with their agenda.
3. The quotes I've linked simply show the evolutionary process of the idea of flight in WoD, but naturally, as a person with an agenda you chop them up and twist the interpretation to suit your narrative.
4. Those words weren't in your statements, but they were in the statements made by Blizzard that you are basing your statements on.

You are providing a perfect example of the communication issues that Blizzard is having. They make general statements that are meant to be a glimpse into the developmental process, and are understood by rational people to be subject to change. Many people, however, interpret them as "Definitive statements" that are defining a "crystal clear" stance, and they begin to tell their story of being "dragged along" through the "appalling" lies and deceptions.

It is clear to anyone who is unbiased, and without an agenda to support, that the communication problem is with a player base who takes information given in good faith about the process and freely edits, interprets, and twists it in order to claim a victim status that just isn't justified.

TL:DR: You weren't lied to. Try to see past your own bias for a moment and move on.
08/20/2015 01:31 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding "you should have designed the world with flight from the beginning!" We actually did, we just had to do a lot more development after that, and some of that stuff broke flying in ways we didn't fully anticipate.

For example, when Warlords released, our servers were unable to handle the massive numbers of players trying to log into the game. Our server technicians pulled some absolutely crazy magic to dramatically increase the number of players who could be on a given server at one time. That solved the load issues, but ended up creating a large number of the dismount/de-instancing issues that players who have been testing flight on the PTR will have noticed.

Another example: a few weeks later, some exploits surfaced that were allowing certain players to fly in clearly unintended ways (such as Druids being able to leave Ashran with the Flight Form book still active). We hotfixed those exploits as they came up, but some of those hotfixes broke flying in Draenor in ways that continued even with flying properly enabled.

Obviously, we knew that both of those things were likely to cause some issues, we just severely underestimated how widespread (and difficult to resolve) those issues would be. And we didn't want to delay rolling out those fixes, because they had major implications for the live game (especially the server stuff), where no one was supposed to be able to fly at the time anyway.

Given the choice between letting thousands more people actually play the game and potentially breaking something that (at the time) we weren't sure was even going to matter later, it was an easy decision. But even easy decisions have consequences, and now we're having to deal with those in 6.2.1/6.2.2.


1. If that's true then why not say that from the beginning? There's a reason players (including myself) are skeptical about replies from you guys. The fact that we didn't get a solid answer but instead a"maby" made things worse (not to mention your original statement about flight "breaking immersion" which it doesn't. Being able to fly let's you see wow's landscape in all it's beauty, that is my reason for wanting to fly.

2. For your second paragraph, it didn't help that you merged many servers shortly before the expansion launch, yes it did provide a short term fix to under populated servers and yes I did meet some friends I wouldn't have otherwise but it also meant all the inactive players from all the merged servers would be crowded into a single server when re-subbing, bad idea.

3. Could you not simply make the buff fall off when leaving Ashran? Similar (zone specific buffs) has been done before. That would have been a simpler hotfix instead of whatever it is you did that supposedly "broke flying".

4. I still don't get why you're so against flying. It's one of the features that makes this game unique and enjoyable. Yes it is imbalanced for pvp servers but that could be fixed by only disabling it on pvp servers. As for other times you'd free to see the world in all it's beauty from a birds eye view.

5. It could have all been prevented (along with this forum war) if you never disabled flight to begin with. I don't see why you couldn't have enabled flying at lvl 100 for the beginning of the expansion with a gold fee and/or explore Draenor achievement as the requirement .You also have mechanics in place for Wintergrasp of Icecrown you could consider recycling. When a session starts it disables players ability to fly. You could apply that to Ashran to disable flying for it.
08/20/2015 01:49 PMPosted by Lissanna
08/20/2015 01:45 PMPosted by Seranthor
...

Lore, I have to ask, Why was absolutely none of this communicated 4-6 wks ago? It CERTAINLY would have made a huge difference then.

I dont know about other people, but for me given the options of
1) hard, difficult truth,
2) fake sunshine and fake lollipops and
3) radio silence.

I would without hesitation or reservation chose option number 1.


Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it seems more complicated than that. While you think the truth is the more obvious choice, one could argue that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They told the truth when they said flying wouldn't launch with the start of Warlords. When they decided to release flying, they said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it. People are just looking for things to nit-pick just for the sake of having something to be angry about. Even after we can fly, there will still be daily posts here about it on the forums. There's no such thing as making everyone happy. :(


True you can not make everyone happy. What the developers did, though, is make a large number of people angry by removing flight in the first place. They created this situation needlessly. There was nothing wrong with the model they had been following for years. They are the ones who decided how we, the players, should have fun. They are the ones who dictated to us how we should play the game. It is not about telling the truth, never has been. do not feel sorry for them they are reaping exactly what they sowed.
08/22/2015 02:57 AMPosted by Halleth
True you can not make everyone happy. What the developers did, though, is make a large number of people angry by removing flight in the first place. They created this situation needlessly. There was nothing wrong with the model they had been following for years. They are the ones who decided how we, the players, should have fun. They are the ones who dictated to us how we should play the game. It is not about telling the truth, never has been. do not feel sorry for them they are reaping exactly what they sowed.


EXACTLY this never became an issue UNTIL Blizzard made it one
08/19/2015 09:19 PMPosted by Malvar

Again, he came to elaborate on the difficulties of implementing flying in Draenor..


And where were those difficulties in TBC? Where were they in WotLK? Where were they Cataclysm? Where were they in MoP?

Funny how these "difficulties" pertaining to flying cropped out, straight out of thin air in WoD, after 8 years of not having them. They also just happen to coincide with the corner cutting, cheap cash grab expansion.

So you've left it with 1 choice. Lies or Incompetence. Which one suddenly afflicted Blizzard after 8 years of being perfectly capable of handling flying?
Seems the major issues was at the release of WOD Blizz was not ready for the amount of people who pre-paid for WOD. Lets face it... it was as bad as the gates of AQ without the dial up tone..
The servers should have been ready for the amount of people that where going to log on. One of the biggest mistakes was a free 90 to all players which made even new players log on for the 1st time and go right to Draenor. Blizz had to know that start zones were going to be packed....

As far as flight goes I can't agree with Halleth anymore.

08/22/2015 02:57 AMPosted by Halleth
True you can not make everyone happy. What the developers did, though, is make a large number of people angry by removing flight in the first place. They created this situation needlessly. There was nothing wrong with the model they had been following for years. They are the ones who decided how we, the players, should have fun. They are the ones who dictated to us how we should play the game. It is not about telling the truth, never has been. do not feel sorry for them they are reaping exactly what they sowed.


When flight came out in BC it was awesome added a whole new element to the game.
and WOTLK same it was a great feeling to get cold weather flying.
Cata was also epic to fly around and see what deathwing did to Azeroth.
Panda same thing it was awesome to be able to fly around to do all those dallies...well not going there
But now all of a sudden it turns into well it worked with timeless isle, isle of thunder and isle of giants so why bother with flight where in fact Blizz built a game where flight is expected at max level and by the amount of people raging about it very much wanted. And the Fact that the player base is kept in the dark on what the issues are on why things are not in place till its months later such as

08/19/2015 08:33 PMPosted by Lore
We found tiny pockets of the world that weren't properly obeying the flight rules, and would drop players to their deaths if you happened to fly through them. We found issues with certain mounts and class abilities that were caused by hotfixes to resolve exploits, which resulted in those mounts and abilities not working. We found situations in which if you fly into your Garrison at juuuuust the right angle, you get disconnected and can't get back onto your character for a good half hour or so.


Only adds to the frustration...
Just let the people know why things that are a Hot topic on your forums are not in place. Not just we are working on it. Then wait a month and say we are still working on it..
Seems to me if the above Blue post was said with in a few months of WOD a lot more people would have more respect for the Dev team
Jussayin, Blizzards website has has made many statements like this which lead the consumer (us) into thinking flight would have been enabled at launch or a little there after.

https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft-warlords-of-draenor

World of Warcraft - Dread Raven Mount and Dread Hatchling Pet

Swoop down from the dark night skies on the back of a black-winged Dread Raven mount, a mortal progeny of Anzu. Then devour your prey in your next pet battle with the adorably ferocious Dread Hatchling.

This was posted on 8/14/2014 ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/15225287/explore-the-warlords-of-draenor%E2%84%A2-collector%E2%80%99s-edition-8-14-2014

Epic In-Game Content

World of Warcraft Dread Raven Mount and Dread Hatchling Pet

Descend from the skies on the back of a black-winged Dread Raven mount, a mortal progeny of Anzu.
Then devour your prey in your next pet battle with the adorably ferocious Dread Hatchling.

Flying was definitely on the table from launch, it's worded a little differently on each post, but it shows clear intent that flying would be included by purchasing the expac.
08/22/2015 02:39 AMPosted by Aehl
Folks can we PLEASE not shoot the messenger?

Sheesh.....
I think they keep shooting him until some thing happen in game or patch or legion come out.
Given the choice between letting thousands more people actually play the game and potentially breaking something that (at the time) we weren't sure was even going to matter later, it was an easy decision. But even easy decisions have consequences, and now we're having to deal with those in 6.2.1/6.2.2.


I really do not want to pile on but this part is really near the heart my aggravation.

Despite re-assurances that there was not a decision made at the time (WoD launch) there never was any true intention to enable flight in WoD. I mean why not simply say so. The statement "We have no intention of enabling flying in WoD and future expansions." made at the outset means we don't discuss it for 2 years. Truly the decision was not made until that statement was made. We see where the player base flies on this issue, and now ignoring these issues has come home to roost. Now no one is patient, You should have addressed those issues as they arose. You could have sent the hot fix out and then fixed the issues with flying that arose if your statements that the decision was not made were accurate.

The statements of we like how flying worked out in WoD are disingenuous. Flying has not worked out in WoD or is your intention to not enable flying until Legion is over? Can you be less clear about it?

And now we are back to intentions, clearly the initial design of Legion was no-flying. It is clear based on previous actions that this is the case. "we weren't sure was even going to matter later, it was an easy decision." So I am curious as to how this will be addressed? My assumption based on action in WoD that they will leave 7.0 up to at least 7.1 to work on fixing flying so they can get the new expac out the door without having to deal with it.

I don't expect apologies, or anything like that, I expect action. I do not know who is in charge, I don't care about staffing charts and whotnot, this is who has the most influence and charisma to move their vision forward. Once a decision has been made announce it, deal with it and move on. This was not the actions taken until May, while it was decided that it would be added they are still unwilling to commit to when they plan on enabling flying in Legion.

My point is round about flying but more to the point design in general. Unfortunately flying has so dominated the experience (for me and many others) that removing it soured everything else. Basically if it wasn't fun (ergo grinds and such) now became a major aggravation. Also the fun(not!) work a rounds were annoyances as well, aviana's feather and gliders for example. I no longer raid, though by all accounts the raids are engaging and fun. I mostly enjoyed follower missions, I liked leveling, I liked the weekly quests that moved the story line. stat squish was over due, level boost was past due, a little on the fence about the game time token (I am using it exclusively to play) and Tanaan was not too bad. The art has always been great. So not all down side but Garrisons, random dismounts from irrelevant mobs, hung up on doodads, professions, dailies, and just not feeling any need to exit my garrison are some of the downsides.

My 02. coppers
LOL, my wife will enjoy reading this. She works for a big software company and will totally get what Lore is saying here. Somebody fixes something and it breaks three other things down the line. It happens all the time.

I actually very much appreciate this post, Lore. Getting some sort of explanation helps some of us a lot. When I don't understand something, and no explanation is forthcoming, and on top of that I am getting mixed messages because the folks in charge aren't always on the same page? It does lead to speculation and that speculation isn't always benevolent towards Blizzard. For me, anyway, just getting some sensible detail once-in-awhile helps me see Blizzard as human beings who just deal with the same workplace madness as my wife does rather than people who are obfuscating and being difficult.

I don't need a detailed explanation of every decision, as that would be most unreasonable! But a post like this one, once-in-awhile? It is great. Thanks.
08/19/2015 08:33 PMPosted by Lore
I just also know that it's better to not expect much and be pleasantly surprised, than to feel like a promise was broken. At least that's my opinion.


Yes! my feelings exactly! Thanks Lore!
08/21/2015 10:10 PMPosted by Brelyx
[...] half-baked legal hackery that is completely baseless and try to rouse the rabble.

Massachusetts General Laws, Part IV, Title I, Chapter 266, Section 91:

"Any person who, with intent to sell or in any way dispose of merchandise, securities, service, or anything offered by such person, directly or indirectly, to the public for sale or distribution, or who, with intent to increase the consumption of or demand for such merchandise, securities, service or other thing, or to induce the public in any manner to enter into any obligation relating thereto, or to acquire title thereto, or an interest therein, makes, publishes, disseminates, circulates or places before the public, or causes, directly or indirectly, to be made, published, disseminated, circulated or placed before the public within the commonwealth, in a newspaper or other publication, or in the form of a book, notice, handbill, poster, bill, circular, pamphlet or letter, or in any other way, an advertisement of any sort regarding merchandise, securities, service or anything so offered to the public, which advertisement contains any assertion, representation or statement of fact which is untrue, deceptive or misleading, and which such person knew, or might on reasonable investigation have ascertained to be untrue, deceptive or misleading, shall be punished by a fine of not less than one thousand nor more than two thousand dollars; provided, that this section shall not apply to any owner, publisher, printer, agent or employee of a newspaper or other publication, periodical or circular, or to any agent of the advertiser who in good faith and without knowledge of the falsity or deceptive character thereof publishes, causes to be published, or participates in the publication of such advertisement."

Now, let me parse that into something closer to common, day-to-day conversational English for you:

"Any person who, with intent to sell [goods or services], or who, with intent to increase the consumption of or demand for such [goods or services], or to induce the public in any manner to enter into any obligation relating thereto [...], makes [statements] in [any media], which advertisement contains any assertion, representation or statement of fact which is untrue, deceptive or misleading, and which such person knew, or might on reasonable investigation have ascertained to be untrue, deceptive or misleading, shall be punished by a fine of not less than one thousand nor more than two thousand dollars; provided, that this section shall not apply to any owner, publisher, printer, agent or employee of a [media outlet], or to any agent of the advertiser who in good faith and without knowledge of the falsity or deceptive character thereof publishes, causes to be published, or participates in the publication of such advertisement."

That means exactly what I said before.

Breaking it down, part by part:

"Any person who, with intent to sell [goods or services], or who, with intent to increase the consumption of or demand for such [goods or services], or to induce the public in any manner to enter into any obligation relating thereto [...],"

This means: Pre-order sales of Warlords. Subscription fees, from Warlords' launch to their "no flying ever" revelation. Subscription fees, from their Pathfinder about-face to date.

"makes [statements] in [any media], which advertisement contains any assertion, representation or statement of fact which is untrue, deceptive or misleading,"

Note, the standard only requires it to be misleading, not necessarily an outright lie.

"and which such person knew, or might on reasonable investigation have ascertained to be untrue, deceptive or misleading,"

Note, there need not be any actual intent to deceive or mislead - it must only be reasonably predictible that those statements would mislead people. Which, well yeah, was pretty obviously an inevitable outcome, here.

"shall be punished by a fine of not less than one thousand nor more than two thousand dollars;"
Note, they can slap that fine down for each and every instance of such statements. Send out fifty thousand fliers in the local newspaper's Sunday edition? That can be called fifty thousand instances, if the AG wants to play hardball to that degree.

"provided, that this section shall not apply to any owner, publisher, printer, agent or employee of a [media outlet], or to any agent of the advertiser who in good faith and without knowledge of the falsity or deceptive character thereof publishes, causes to be published, or participates in the publication of such advertisement."

Don't get your hopes up here. This clause shields people like magazine owners, TV station managers, and so on for accepting advertisements - the blame and liability is on the original advertiser, not the people they paid to distribute them. In the Sunday Paper example, that means the newspaper is blameless, as is the actual printer who produced all those fliers. The fault lays with the guys who PAID for all of that to happen.

As should be obvious by now ... this isn't baseless, and it isn't "half-baked legal hackery". It's a direct reading of the law of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, word for word, FROM THEIR OWN WEBSITE:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter266/Section91

...

Now: once Blizzard starts taking money for something, any claims they make? Any statements as to the nature of that thing? In Massachusetts, at least, they are advertisements. In order to avoid tripping over that law, breaking their nose, and kncking half their teeth out ... they need to be extremely explicit about what IS going to be a feature, versus what only might be. And even that is not a 100% guarantee of not having those remarks bite them on the !@# later.

Honestly speaking ... you know what protects Blizzard from a complaint under that law?

Not them being right.

Not them supposedly "not making promises".

Not them "just changing their plans"

... no ...

What protects them is the simple fact that the fifty dollar refund I could seek for my Warlords purchase is not worth the hassle and expense of filing suit. Anyone bringing a complaint under Ch.266 S.91, would be out-of-pocket for the filing charges and their attorney's fees. Likely, several MONTHS worth of those fees, because you'd first have to knock down any "jurisdiction" clause of the TOU, through the courts.

For fifty dollars.

So, Blizzard is protected by it not being worth going after ... not by being right.

Meanwhile, I will continue to insist they are a pack of liars.


and you do realize when you sign an agreement, anything then can be void.
before logging in that toon you created, you signed where blizzard stated, at anytime, blizzard can cancel service without warning.
You might come off copy paste lawyer, but they have lawyers to.
They can sell flying mounts, and not allow flying in wod or any other expac, and tell the community,
deal with it.
are you then going to sue? and how would you win, when you signed the eula?
Now speaking of lawyer stuff you copied and pasted from, why didnt you have a lawyer present with you before
clicking on i agree?
It truly does amuse me to see the same people trumpeting the same "they didn't promise!" defense like that somehow excuses or justifies their deliberate lies, deceit and dishonesty. Yes yes, we all know plans change. For the last damn time, that is NOT what we are so angry about. We are angry because we have very clear evidence that, in spite of Blizzard SAYING they intended to add flight, their actions (or lack thereof) tell us they did NOT intend to add flight. They lied.

I, and several others, have spelled out those examples numerous times yet the white knights continue blatantly ignoring them and trumpeting their version of the get out of jail free card. Following their logic, NOTHING that Blizzard says can be trusted without the magic "We promise" words. Is that really the type of relationship they want to encourage between the customers and Blizzard? "Don't believe anything we say without the "we promise" code words."

With that being said, I am sick of beating my head against a brick wall talking to the "Blizzard can do no wrong" crowd. They will never be able to convince me that Blizzard truly ever had any intention to add flight and I will never be able convince them that Blizzard is anything less then pure perfection. I lost patience with Blizzard's dishonesty and gave up on the game. I have now lost patience with their defender's dishonesty and am giving up on the forums.

I truly hope Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and starts working on rebuilding the bridges they burned with so many players. I have such a bad taste on my mouth due to their actions/lack of action in this expac that it will be a long time before I feel I can trust anything they say without a written, notarized guarantee.
08/22/2015 02:39 AMPosted by Aehl
Folks can we PLEASE not shoot the messenger?

Sheesh.....


Is that not what the spartans would do?
08/22/2015 02:57 AMPosted by Halleth
08/20/2015 01:49 PMPosted by Lissanna
...

Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it seems more complicated than that. While you think the truth is the more obvious choice, one could argue that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They told the truth when they said flying wouldn't launch with the start of Warlords. When they decided to release flying, they said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it. People are just looking for things to nit-pick just for the sake of having something to be angry about. Even after we can fly, there will still be daily posts here about it on the forums. There's no such thing as making everyone happy. :(


True you can not make everyone happy. What the developers did, though, is make a large number of people angry by removing flight in the first place. They created this situation needlessly. There was nothing wrong with the model they had been following for years. They are the ones who decided how we, the players, should have fun. They are the ones who dictated to us how we should play the game. It is not about telling the truth, never has been. do not feel sorry for them they are reaping exactly what they sowed.


It probably wouldn't have been bad if the Draenei Pathfinder achievement existed at launch (without the tannan rep requirements) and we could earn flying ourselves after exhausting all the content. Making us wait almost a year even after earning an achievement that supposedly unlocks it is just dumb. By the time we finally do get flying what is there left to do? I already got FOUR level 100's and I didn't even try. Anyone who actually cares about leveling alts should have one of every class by now.
08/22/2015 07:28 AMPosted by Lyceus
I truly hope Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses


And I hope the same for you.

Blizzard doesn't owe you anything. They don't owe you explanations or communications aside from patch notes and game/expansion announcements. Nothing else is necessary.

They don't need to have devs with Twitter accounts. They don't need to have forum CMs (they don't need to have forums aside from tech. support, really). They don't need to do YouTube/Twitch interviews.

You're a CUSTOMER of a company. You either like what they're putting out, or you don't. You vote with your wallet. YOU are the only person in charge of your money and your loyalties.

They "lied" - boohoo. Why are you still here if it upset you that much? Why are you not exercising your right to vote with your wallet? Whining at the wall like it's going to "move" a company that is making more profit than the value of some small countries is childish and naïve.

Should a company WANT to do a bit for its consumer - make them feel special, like they're being heard, etc.? Of course. It's good business practice. And when you step back and look at how much Blizz and its devs really do put themselves out there in contrast to other MMOs, you'd be in denial to try and say that they don't communicate enough.

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