Blizzard, you're doing it again

General Discussion
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08/22/2015 07:28 AMPosted by Lyceus
It truly does amuse me to see the same people trumpeting the same "they didn't promise!" defense like that somehow excuses or justifies their deliberate lies, deceit and dishonesty. Yes yes, we all know plans change. For the last damn time, that is NOT what we are so angry about. We are angry because we have very clear evidence that, in spite of Blizzard SAYING they intended to add flight, their actions (or lack thereof) tell us they did NOT intend to add flight. They lied.


I am still waiting for this very clear evidence.
08/22/2015 04:56 AMPosted by Çhill
Just let the people know why things that are a Hot topic on your forums are not in place. Not just we are working on it. Then wait a month and say we are still working on it..

Nobody seems to understand that the transparency the player base is demanding is impossible, largely because of the player base.
In order for them to give you more frequent and thorough updates, they would NEED the ability to tell you things that would turn out to possibly be incorrect over time as their plans change.

However, everything they say can, and WILL be used against them by people who want whatever their pet agenda is and will claim they were lied to. The evidence for this is rampant just in this thread, let alone the rest of the forums.

08/22/2015 05:08 AMPosted by Negishi
Flying was definitely on the table from launch, it's worded a little differently on each post, but it shows clear intent that flying would be included by purchasing the expac.

08/22/2015 07:28 AMPosted by Lyceus
We are angry because we have very clear evidence that, in spite of Blizzard SAYING they intended to add flight, their actions (or lack thereof) tell us they did NOT intend to add flight. They lied.

You guys are tripping over yourselves demonstrating the "clear intent" that flying was intended at launch, and the "clear evidence" that they did NOT intend to add flight. You're both on the same side and can't even agree on what's "clear", because you're trying to argue back from your own point of view instead of following the logical chain of what actually took place.

08/22/2015 06:51 AMPosted by Dinluya
I'm sorry you can't see what any reasonable person sees in those statements. I really am.

And I'm sorry you can't seem to differentiate between something that is said as a true statement of intent in the time it was made that was later changed by circumstances, and commandments carved into stone by a deity intending them to last forever.

08/22/2015 07:28 AMPosted by Lyceus
Following their logic, NOTHING that Blizzard says can be trusted without the magic "We promise" words. Is that really the type of relationship they want to encourage between the customers and Blizzard? "Don't believe anything we say without the "we promise" code words."

Or, more accurately, understand that everything Bizzard reveals that isn't explicitly listed as something that is coming into game, like live realm patch notes, and expansion release notes, is them trying to give you a little peek in the window because they know you want it, but they're not going to "promise" because development is a process and is by its nature changeable. If you don't infer a promise that isn't said or intended, you'll be a lot less angry if things change.
08/20/2015 01:49 PMPosted by Lore
08/20/2015 01:37 PMPosted by Grummulthrus
So, again: if you suspected that the new content would cause problems with flight, then why did you choose to heap MORE features on top of flying in his patch, knowing that would cause delays and thus upset people?

Because we knew it wouldn't, and it hasn't. None of the other content in 6.2.1/6.2.2 has delayed flying in any way.

There are multiple teams of people here working on multiple things. The people working on fixing up Draenor for flight are not the same people working on Mercenary Mode, or the class tuning changes, or the pets and mounts, etc.


Then tell those teams to not break flying when they do stuff, instead of letting them get away with it. Get a meeting with those teams set up asap to address their sloppiness.
08/22/2015 08:33 AMPosted by Draenybrit
Then tell those teams to not break flying when they do stuff, instead of letting them get away with it. Get a meeting with those teams set up asap to address their sloppiness.

The piece you quoted wasn't about other teams messing up flying. It was about other teams working on things while the flight team fixes flying. He was addressing the charge that flight was delayed for other features that pro-flyers dismiss as useless, and trying to explain that adding those features to the patch didn't affect the release date of flight because it was different teams working.

He actually did address your "argument" in one of his posts, explaining that there were a number of exploits that needed fixing, and they chose the quickest fixes to address them despite consequences for flight because they had people that wanted to play right then, and flight was an issue that may not have even become relevant.

08/20/2015 01:31 PMPosted by Lore
Given the choice between letting thousands more people actually play the game and potentially breaking something that (at the time) we weren't sure was even going to matter later, it was an easy decision. But even easy decisions have consequences, and now we're having to deal with those in 6.2.1/6.2.2.
08/22/2015 08:33 AMPosted by Draenybrit
Then tell those teams to not break flying when they do stuff, instead of letting them get away with it. Get a meeting with those teams set up asap to address their sloppiness


Please tell me about your experience designing and coding a game on the scale of World of Warcraft.
08/22/2015 02:57 AMPosted by Halleth
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Honestly, if you read all the angry posts in this thread, it seems more complicated than that. While you think the truth is the more obvious choice, one could argue that radio silence is a better choice than telling the truth and having people yell at you and call you a liar for telling the truth. They told the truth when they said flying wouldn't launch with the start of Warlords. When they decided to release flying, they said that deploying flight would take time and would have to go in a build AFTER 6.2. They told the truth with that. They also said their anticipated time frame would be to get it out as fast as they could. The community is never overall happy with anything. So, honestly, there's no such thing as option #1 where you tell the truth and the community cheers the community team and stops talking about it. People are just looking for things to nit-pick just for the sake of having something to be angry about. Even after we can fly, there will still be daily posts here about it on the forums. There's no such thing as making everyone happy. :(


True you can not make everyone happy. What the developers did, though, is make a large number of people angry by removing flight in the first place. They created this situation needlessly. There was nothing wrong with the model they had been following for years. They are the ones who decided how we, the players, should have fun. They are the ones who dictated to us how we should play the game. It is not about telling the truth, never has been. do not feel sorry for them they are reaping exactly what they sowed.


Flying was never a problem until Blizzard decided it was a problem. It was folly to take it out when the premise was that they would then deliver a compelling enough experience that no one would miss it but did not deliver on that premise. I think that's the crux of the whole issue of flying and about Warlords in general. There was a huge amount of hype for this expansion from Blizzcon and elsewhere that did not get delivered on. And that's why people are dissatisfied right now.

Communicating as Lore is doing here on the forums is constructive. It's the way forward through this and I hope he continues. However, seeing the recently discussed tweets from other Blizzard developers works against this effort on Lore's part (boy, I really wish they'd not use twitter to communicate on game-related issues). It's an attempt to externalize the communication issues onto the player-base when the issues are internal. You can't hype a product and then turn around and blame the player-base for believing the hype. That's the whole point of hype — to get the customer to believe. Sure, previous expansions cut and changed things but not to the extent that Warlords did. It's not that Blizzard said too much — it's that Blizzard delivered too little. There's a difference.

So, yes, it was never about telling the truth. It's about better managing expectations and communications. There's always going to be people that Blizzard cannot make happy no matter how hard they try. These outlier player opinions just need to be set aside. The worst thing that could come out of this is if Blizzard learns the wrong lesson and now sees players as antagonists and believes it is at "war" with its own players. This really worries me because it'll lead to all sorts of other problems.
08/22/2015 09:17 AMPosted by Torghen
You can't hype a product and then turn around and blame the player-base for believing the hype.

While players like Darcal, Nixx, and myself are turning the blame on the player base for misinterpreting or outright twisting developer comments to create their own narrative, I don't believe anyone at Blizzard has blamed the player base. If you have a comment or comments in mind I would appreciate a link so I can see for myself.

08/22/2015 09:17 AMPosted by Torghen
Sure, previous expansions cut and changed things but not to the extent that Warlords did.

Are you willing to consider the possibility that the cutting and changing has been roughly the same through the expansion development process over the years, but seems larger in WoD because players have been given more access to seeing the inner workings of that process as social media has become a larger and larger part of our society?
---WARNING: HERE THERE BE PERSONAL OPINION DRAGONS---

This ended up being a giant wall of text, but I'll leave it with this: I know it's super frustrating when it feels like we're not being as open as we possibly could be. And I know it's equally frustrating when it seems like we're completely unwilling to commit to anything concrete. I spent 8 years as a player before I became an employee. I know exactly how it feels.

I just also know that it's better to not expect much and be pleasantly surprised, than to feel like a promise was broken. At least that's my opinion.


Thanks for clearing all this up. :)
It simply amazes me how what should be a world-class organization still repeats the same old amateur hour mistakes over and over again. I've played since vanilla, taken a few breaks now and then, always cleared all the content and followed the official posts. I have a good handle on this game and Blizzard's methods.

I would never pay another dime in subscription fees for WoW, and I've been playing these past few months with game tokens purchased with in game gold. If it wasn't for the free game time, then I wouldn't have even cared to finish 6.2

I'm now finished. I won't even bother to keep playing for free.

Flying won't be released on September 1. You are the most deceptive and dishonest company I've ever encountered. You are professionals at stringing people along, missing the point, not giving your customers what they want, etc. etc. etc. The game your developers want to make is not the game your players want to play. That's simply a mismatch that is going to doom your company.

Flying needs to be available day one in Legion for me to even consider rejoining this game. That would be some indication to me that you have actually learned something.

As it stands, your community is just too toxic. Your devs and PR people are just too arrogant, patronizing, and deceptive. And your game engine is just too old.

I've already moved on to Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn and Heavensward. That game is simply amazing and everything yours should aspire to be. I feel a sense of awe and wonder playing that game that I haven't felt in WoW for years.

So, thanks for the good memories, but it doesn't seem like your game will be producing any more for me. So I'm off to a game that will.

Chow.
08/22/2015 09:49 AMPosted by Farmacist


Chow.


Pizza's ready, Ciao.
Having worked in QA, I feel one can never truly hold a game to its release date. And even if the game does meet its release date, sometimes pushing it back may have been the better option.
Releasing flying even with bugs and exploits would have been the better option at this point. It is incredibly sad that Blizzard still doesn't have a good perspective on how much they have damaged their brand.

When flying isn't released on Sept 1 it will be the final nail.
Blizzard often finds themselves in a bad position. It's like saying, "Yes, we can go out for a bike ride after lunch." Then, it starts raining. What do they do? They already promised a bike ride. They don't have control over the weather, and any reasonable person would say, "Yeah, that sucks." However, there's an element of the forum that will say, "No! You said we could go for a bike ride. Let's go."

Never mind that it's unsafe and generally just a bad idea to do so. The element that I mentioned will hold their feet to the fire, regardless of logic.

What it does is it makes Blizzard hesitant to make promises at all. Even ones they know they can keep, will be made with guarded language akin to, "Yes, we can go for a ride, but only if everything is conducive to doing so." That kind of language gets them mired in pedantic arguments over their choice of words and not the important bits.

Needless to say, I think people just need to learn to be more reasonable. Understand that everything that's shared is still work in progress and circumstances can change.

This is also a learning opportunity for Blizzard in that it's important to let the product speak for itself and not inflate it with theoretical concepts.
08/22/2015 10:04 AMPosted by Farmacist
Releasing flying even with bugs and exploits would have been the better option at this point.

Riiiiiight...the forums wouldn't have reverberated with stuff to the effect of, "We waited since launch for this crap? I did their stupid achievements and ground their stupid reps and it doesn't even work right? U SUK BLIZZ!!!!11!!1!!one!!!1!"

I think your faith in the community is badly misplaced.
08/22/2015 09:49 AMPosted by Farmacist

You are the most deceptive and dishonest company I've ever encountered. You are professionals at stringing people along, missing the point, not giving your customers what they want, etc. etc. etc.


I'll definitely agree to this but on a different note as it's been my experience too with countless tickets & a few posts here & there over the years.

I'm sick & tired of this company catering to the stupid, out-dated & utterly dumbass notion that the vast majority of players are 13-18 year old Hugh Hefners who have no respect for women & have designed most of the graphics, dialogue, artwork & backstories accordingly.

Sylvanas is called a !@#$% in one of the quests & most of the female characters have NO heroic storylines like Green Jesus (Horde) & Druid Jesus (Alliance), but they're just pawns (of heroes or villains, or just victims of the story du jour) or arm candy/window dressing for the main dude of the hour. The cinematics are just puffed up lame macho drama that are cringe-worthy much like WWE garbage (a whole lot of useless yap & posturing with little significant action.)

I hate to bag on Blizz because they've made a lot of neat stuff over the years, but I'm sick & tired of this constant one-sided men are the be-all, end-all of every ^-*!ing storyline! Sylvanas got some decent focus for awhile but nothing's come of it other than a concentration camp out in Hillsbrad, but she's been put on the back burner & Jaina was interesting, but it looks like she's going to go crazy because they just don't know what to do with someone who's intelligent & not a baby maker.

FFS, get rid of the fappy female NE dance & bouncy animations. Night Elves are supposed to be the embodiment of poise, grace & dignity, not someone's pet.

The only "badass" female model I've seen is the awesome Avatar of Freya. She looks like she could wade into battle & kick some serious @#$!

Please show us ladies some love! It's been 10 years of unrealistic male exceptionalism, time to move on already.
08/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Blonkie
What it does is it makes Blizzard hesitant to make promises at all. Even ones they know they can keep, will be made with guarded language akin to, "Yes, we can go for a ride, but only if everything is conducive to doing so." That kind of language gets them mired in pedantic arguments over their choice of words and not the important bits.

And even with the guarded language, people extract the parts they want and then hold them up later like they were commandments thrown down from the mountain.

08/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Blonkie
Needless to say, I think people just need to learn to be more reasonable. Understand that everything that's shared is still work in progress and circumstances can change.

A million times this. Especially since they repeat that last sentence over and over again.
08/22/2015 10:12 AMPosted by Celthorn
Please show us ladies some love! It's been 10 years of unrealistic male exceptionalism, time to move on already.

How is this possibly even remotely relevant to the topic of this thread?
08/22/2015 10:14 AMPosted by Zothlar
08/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Blonkie
What it does is it makes Blizzard hesitant to make promises at all. Even ones they know they can keep, will be made with guarded language akin to, "Yes, we can go for a ride, but only if everything is conducive to doing so." That kind of language gets them mired in pedantic arguments over their choice of words and not the important bits.

And even with the guarded language, people extract the parts they want and then hold them up later like they were commandments thrown down from the mountain.

08/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Blonkie
Needless to say, I think people just need to learn to be more reasonable. Understand that everything that's shared is still work in progress and circumstances can change.

A million times this. Especially since they repeat that last sentence over and over again.


Sadly, there's people out there that will jump to the conclusion of, "You knew it was going to rain. You never wanted to go for a ride at all"!

/sigh

It's a lose, lose situation with irrational people. That's why it's best not to descend into arguments with those type.
The logic of the white knights is effectively that Blizzard never promises anything, and everything they report could be removed, cancelled, or never even implemented.

Effectively, the best behaviour is to basically never trust anything Blizzard every says because there is always a 100% chance that what they just said could turn out to absolutely not happen.

Now just imagine if this was an inidividual: someone who you are told never says anything with certainty, and everything that is stated, can always turns out to be ultimately untrue.

Would this be kind of person you want to be friends with?

Is this the kind of company you want to support?

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