Guild Rep is 100% Stupid.

General Discussion
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First and foremost it is not a system we want to encourage people to grind out....

Well, of course it's going to be grindy.

I've been in my current guild since before cataclysm was launched.

I leveled to 85 almost soley with quests (did a few pre-85 dungeons, but mostly quested).

I geared up in heroics almost entirely in guild runs (maybe not 4/5, but almost always with another guild member or 2, as pugs seem to be, well, retarded, more often than not). I'm done with resto gear (like 351 average or something) and nearly done with hance gear (btw, I have never seen a mail wrist piece drop in a heroic).

I have maxed out every Cata rep bar the Uldum one, as exalted there gives me nothing.

I don't need to do fishing dailies, and while I generally try to do cooking dailies, I don't always get to it.

I have the drake and the healing trinket from Tol Barad rep - the agility trinket I'm not going to aim for (it seems to be barely an upgrade over heroic trinkets, and an "on use" one at that), so I don't really need to do any TB dailies.

What I'm getting at, is my character is 100% raid-ready for resto, and like 95% raid ready for enhancement. But honestly I don't plan on raiding.

But I'm only 9275/12000 honored.

Getting to exalted sure does look like a grind, because to get there, I need to do things that I'd otherwise simply not do, or get there in like a year.

Now, I'm NOT going to grind it out, as Cataclysm is already WAY too grindy in just about every regard. (Actually, the fact that it IS so grindy is why I'm very likely to give Rift a try - not saying I'll like that game - I have no idea, but I'm having a LOT less fun in Cataclysm compared to Lich King.) Grinding out mats (if I were to decide to raid again) looks more grindy than LK.

But if getting exalted with my guild was that important to me, it's only possible by grinding - completing all the zones (and therefore losing herbalism nodes to phasing), especially the nightmare that is Vash, doing dailies for no reason other than guild rep, etc.

It actually should be my ACCOUNT that contributes to all my toons' guild rep. I have 6 toons in the guild, and 2 of them are 83 and another is 82. Of course those 3 toons are all neutral with the same guild....

Is this a miscalculation like the cauldrons, or do you guys really want it to be this slow (and possibly/probably) so grindy?
01/17/2011 12:05 PMPosted by Bashiok
As far as making it account wide, I'm not a designer, but that definitely hinders, again, the guild participation factor. Once you have guild rep set on one character, and if that then applied account wide, your desire to contribute to guild content that isn't pushing gearing your character drops substantially

fair enough, but how about something a lot more toned down, the way when you get reputation for an alliance faction (say stormwind) you get spill-over of 25% to the other factions?

What if for every point of guild rep you got, you got spillover of 10-25% to your alts? perhaps less and less the more alts you had in the guild.

getting one character to exalted with the guild would still take a long time, but a side benefit would be your other 2 alts would at least already be friendly.

just a thought!
01/21/2011 11:52 AMPosted by Shadayah
We need Allied guilds in this guild reputation program.

My former guild also tended to raid with another during WotLK to make 25 mans. I know this isn't needed now but some guilds are very much "allied" sharing a vent, webpages, forums or other services as well.
01/21/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Bashiok
First and foremost it is not a system we want to encourage people to grind out by making certain activities either give rep, or give more of it.

But the major problem with the system is that's exactly what's happened. Soloing dailies is something I'm only doing because of guild rep. And yet they still provide the overwhelming majority of guild rep, far more than a heroic, and far far more than raiding. And guild arenas provide none? I'm not even sure if raiding provides guild rep, if it does it's not nearly enough. The weekly cap is only an issue because it's so hard to know if you've hit it yet.

It's the consummate grind, doing things just to get guild rep instead of because their fun or enjoyable in their own right. You guys wanted guild rep to be a reward for doing things with your guild mates, particularly things that you might do anyway. Instead we've got a system that's all about doing a very specific subset of things (heroics or dailies are pretty much it), and it's also opaque, unfun, and very very grindy. It's unfortunate.
Blizzard, why are low level characters not credited the same for doing quests as higher level characters? You are essentially telling new players to the game to take a hike. When they can go all the way to 60 and barely get past neutral if that far.

The quest reward guild experience for low level players needs to be comparable to higher levels. There is no reason someone going from 1 to 60 by doing quests; and that would be a lot of them I suspect; should not at least be honored with their guild.

When a newly joined 85 can do neutral to honored in a few weeks but a newly joined 1 to 60 won't see the same progress regardless the weeks spent something is amiss
One thing missing in my opinion is that contributing to the guild doesn't even give you rep. Contributing to guild achievements like crafting alchemy stuff or making food or fishing in pools, etc. doesn't increase your guild rep.

01/21/2011 12:02 PMPosted by Tikkii
Here's what I don't get. This guild rep doesn't really help the guilds that have a lower number of members in them. Everything is based on the larger guilds, which is fine, but What about he guilds that have less than 50 people in them. Shouldn't there be a scaling system for the rep aquired based on guild size?

With the current system in place, it takes a smaller guild a lot longer to grind up the rep for the perks. I'm not implying that Blizz should increase the rep gained so people can get their perks faster and leave the guild to join a larger one. But i guess that'll happen no matter what.

I'm just wondering if there are any plans in the furture to help out the smaller guilds that aren't hardcore raiders...

The concept you're referring to is Guild XP, not Rep.
Why do I not get guild rep for wearing my Guild Tabard? If I use it in place of another Rep Tabard, why can I not fight those battles in the name of my guild (earning reputation)?
I think the guild leveling and rep system is fine. I get perks for running 5 mans with my friends? Neato!

A lot of the whining is coming from people who feel entitled to anything in the game just because that thing is in the game. You actually have to expend effort in order to get the things you want.
01/21/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Bashiok
To reiterate my first paragraph, we do have some improvements planned in the way of adding or improving the way rep is gained in certain situations. We do not however feel the system is performing beneath or beyond the intent and design, and are mostly happy with the rate in which it's being gained. Slowly but surely.

This is the reason why people are angry with Blizz. We're not just a small group of people either, we're a clear majority of players.

It's obvious to us that you guys do not realize that the way guild rep and experience is obtained is below expectations. That's what we're trying to tell you.
I for one hope I never have an issue that I can't resolve with my guildmates. I have 3 characters that are close to, or already, at level cap. Due to this if I was to an an unresolvable issue I would lose guild rep on all of my characters and would really screw me over for future raid perks (such as the mount).

I am already 11/12 normal and would love access to the mount that I helped my guild get (once I get my 12/12) instead of a few months down the road when more people have access to it.

I feel that hardcore players who want certain perks, such as mounts or pets, simply do not like this system because it restricts their availability to people who deserve to already have it. I also feel that casual players dislike this system as well considering they don't have as much time to grind their rep to make sure they are able to get the pet they have spent their entire last login on working on.

Its just a bad system, you should really rethink the whole thing and scrap it or make it take less than forever to access.
My suggestion would be to be able to use Guild Tabards inside of dungeons and earn rep.
Yes, makes it easier but it's still a long grind.
I think the guild reputation thing is cool and all, I support it (however rough it is, it could use some re-working).

However.... the fact that those of us that had that bug for one or two weeks where we earned 0 guild reputation... and then they did not reimburse that? That's pretty cold of you all at Blizzard because now, those of us who have put forth the most effort to be some of the first to exalted in the guild, or hell even honored or revered, are stuck 3,000+ reputation behind others. Anyone who looks at my reputations can tell I give a hoot about reputations, having 54 exalteds, close to 56 and having the Insane pre-Cata nerf, is not something to cough at. Sure I might sound "lolumadbro?" well that's because I am. It was demoralizing and kind of disrespectful and harsh to hear that the guild rep that I DID earn, was being ignored, and I pretty much got a nice big "tough luck" smack to the face. Really Blizzard? Your devs can't go into the files of who didn't get credit where it was deserved and grant it? Really? I understand it might take time, but hey, you've done much bigger more complicated things. I have faith in you guys.
01/21/2011 12:15 PMPosted by Kevyne

That won't happen. Even in EQ2, every alt has to grind for their guild status.

If every alt has the same XP as their main, then personal XP in any guild is pointless...all would be maxed fairly fast.

But also in EQ2 status is both personal and guild. So even if you left and lost millions of guild status points, the millions you have for personal status can be taken with you anywhere. This encourages players to grind for status points, and in contrast, that 10% guild status per achieve helps to level the guild passively. No guild in EQ2 is wanting in status points, you'll have so much you have millions to donate to the guild, and still have millions for personal reasons.

WoW doesn't have a status system, which is basically a second currency. A second currency needed to buy guild amenities. A second currency that is also portable, yet also contributes to guild expenses (let alone encourages players to go after achieves to level the guild passively).

Are we playing EQ2 right now? Are these the EQ2 boards? No! I don't care what EQ2 has or will have or could have or won't have. Enough posts about EQ2.

While your idea of Ripping off the EQ2 system could be viable in some other game it doesn't fit the spirit of what the Devs were obviously trying to create.

They wanted a system that gates access to rewards and reduces random guild hopping. Neither of those things are fixed in the EQ2 system. So obviously it doesn't work.
I would like to inform blues that guilds have been handling loot/item distribution on our own since the begining of the game. With most guilds when you join you are on a trial bases, for some guilds you are trial for a set period of time for others it proving your self to what ever rules guilds have setup. Usually when your in trial period you have no acces or very little access to guild bank. In raids your last on list to get epics. All this is control through the ranking system already develop. So we are already making sure people don't grab and run. I feel these new guild items are nothing new and should be allowed to be controlled in the same matter

If I as an officer promote someone and they run off. That's my fault, I made a poor judgement. Does it suck yes, but usually doesn't happen, why cause we have our own system which we have been doing for ever.

Now with guild rep it contradicts and even goes against guild ranking. Why even have rank system anymore?

If your so worried about people paying for the items or grabbing the items and running let me offer some solutions.

1. When the guild member leaves the guild he loses those items.

2. If that's to harsh, then maybe this. When a guild member reaches the correct rank deamed by the guild leaders he can purchase item. The item has a set time on it of 90 days. If that member leave before the 90 days he loses the item.

3. Just get rid of rep. People pay for raid spots to get items how is this any different?

We as guild leaders have been handling guild jumpers just fine. We didn't need your help with this horrible rep system. The first 2 above suggestion would have been fine.

It wasn't broke so why fix it?
Guild rep is dumb. I hate it. It's annoying and arbitrary. It's a good idea to not want people to just jump into guilds and then get cheap easy rewards for the work that the guild has done.

You already have a different but good system in place to prevent this, the ridiculous prices for items after the guild has unlocked them. 1200 for a cloak, couple hundred just for the recipe for a feast that costs a lot to make, couple hundred for any of the other rewards that are mediocre and probably not worth it, then a couple thousand for helms and a couple thousand for the mount at 25.

Why make us accumulate both large amounts of very slow to gain rep(In a system where rep is only rewarded in small amounts from certain actions, some of which do help the guild, many of which have no bearing on the guild at all) and also make us pay large sums of gold for the rewards after we work to unlock them.

Pick one, either make me go out of my way to earn guild rep (yeah most of it is out of my way since I hate doin daily quests and I'm in a small guild so its not easy to chain the heroics together to get guild rep) or make it so that I just have to spend the gold to get it once my guild has unlocked it.

Suggested solution : Just put a timer on how long a person has to be in guild before they can unlock guild rewards. There, no more having to find ways to grind rep and people can't just guild hop to get rewards. Win win.

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