Archaeology, Destroyer of Hope [Feedback]

Professions
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THREAD CONTINUED HERE http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2190800676?page=1#0

This thread is dedicated to improving archaeology - Post frustrations and ideas here. Do not come here to troll. If you see a post like that, tag is TROLLING and move on.

I will refer to all of the race green drops as Keystones.

A taste of what you are in for with this profession:
    "I finally got mine at 231. All it cost me was my self-respect and any sense of enjoyment I had for this game." -Vanas


REQUESTED CHANGES:

    #1- We do not want to spend time digging at sites with no value to us. I.E. We have completed that race, or are not interested in that race.

    #2- We want a way to focus on a particular race we desire either by exclusion of other races, increased chance of the race we want, additional fragments per node, or all sites up at all times with re-spawn timers. (See post #6 p.1, post #331 p.17, post #376 p.19, post# 1106 p.56 for more info.)

    #3- An epic BoA for agility based classes. (See post #2 p.1 for more info.)

    #4- Many of the flavor items are lack-luster and could use some enhancing. (see post #483 p.25 for a large list of ideas.)

    #5- Grimsilt Site in Searing Gorge. They are clearly unearthing a serpent statue, i.e. Troll site - this should not be a dwarf site.

    #6- Add purchasable/findable tool that increase the frags you get.

    #7- Low-lvl epics are already replaceable by quest greens at the level they can be used. Make them max lvl or scaling heirlooms instead.

    #8- Split continents in half, 4 digs per half, to cut down on flight time. The idea is to spend our time digging things up, not looking at the back of our flying mounts.


IDEAS:

    #1- Allow fragments to be tradeable so digging at sites we do not want to is not a total waste of time.

    #2- Introduce new levels of artifact commons of varying degrees of quality. The higher the quality, the more frags it takes to create, the more it sells for.

    #3- Create a center of archaeology (Explorer's League/Reliquary) in IF and SM where there are things on display. Allow player to trade in the artifacts of varying quality for keystones or fragments. Take it one step further and have a community quest to turn in X number of fragments toward a common goal of creating something like a gigantic Devilsaur skeleton that takes 500,000 fossil fragments.

    #4- Quest lines for Epics - Like the great class quests of Vanilla many people have asked for and Blizzard has denied due to it being, iirc, difficult to implement for all classes/specs. Well here you go; Create a few world searching quest lines, including trips to old dungeons/raid instances, elite bosses to be summoned, etc etc etc you guys know how to make awesome quest lines (Redridge).

    #5- Introduce an NPC that will allow you to trade the BoA epics you do find, for the BoA epics you want. (See post #31 p.2 for more info.)

    #6- Have mini quests sometimes spawn for the dig sites. Allow artifacts to be visible when you get close encouraging players to look at the ruins they are investigating. (see post #61 p.4 for more info.)

    #7- Reduce the number of frags needed to solve commons every time you solve it. (See post #139 p.7 for more info.)

    #8- Reduce the chance of getting a common again every time you solve it. (See post #195 p.10 for more info.)

    #9- Implement a weighted chance to get rares that increases with each common solve. (See post #223 p.12 for more info.)

    #10- Increase # of dig sites per continent with skill. (See post #236 p.12 for more info.)

    #11- New dig site types such as: Twilight, Ahn'Qiraj (where the bug mount should be), Titan

    #12- The Innkeeper's Daughter should allow a second hearth location.

    #13- Daily Archaeology Quests. (See post #1012 p.51 for more info.)


CONCERNS:

    #1- Drops are bugged. A topic of much debate. Some get it in under 50 solves, other never see it even on their 300th solve. This creates severe frustration and anger.

    #2- Punishing dig sites. - Grim Batol has packs of 4-5 mobs, lvl 85, fast respawns, no loot dropped when killed - is this site near impossible for certain classes/specs? - Aerie Peak has a Dwarf dig site that is full of guards making it difficult for higher level players and impossible for low level players depending on where the frag nodes spawn.


I will keep this post updated with additional ideas as they pop up and are generally well accepted. Please keep your comments toward this end.
Liked and up-voted.

I would like to add another concern to the pile:

Class Parity on BoA Epics

Currently, every class has a Level 85, iLevel 359 epic item somewhere on the Archeology "loot tables" (even if they are bugged or not) - except Agility classes.

Granted, some specs of other classes don't have a use for any of the BoAs - but Hunters and Rogues currently have nothing of value for ANY spec available through Archeology.

Suggestion: [Fossilized Dragonspine Trophy] - Much like Dragonspine Trophy, except instead of AP and Haste, it could be Agility with a Haste Proc, or Mastery with an Agility proc.

This would kill two birds with one stone. It would add an agility item to the profession, AND it would add a post-450 rare to use all those extra Fossil digs on.

I wanted a profession that offered at the Cata info slowly came out. Something that was Fun, rewarding in some way (2 mounts and a few pets are hardly)

READ THIS BLIZZARD:

Things you can do to help this profession.

Coin from Eld-whatever: Why can't we use this? Is it so hard to make it flip like other coins do in the games? Heads or tails

Hairpin of Blah blah: Headpiece armor

Green Dragon ring: Ring slot

Necklace of blah blah: neck slot

Feather gold earring: head slot

Voodoo doll: Make it usable on target for some goofy effect (like the Piper's pipe bb gun etc)

Bone gaming Dice: why can these not be rolled? Seriously

There is allot of things Blizzard could of done with the commons; effects that might only been Visual (like unique art for the armor etc) among other things, Ie making them be usable instead of potions or other buff consumables. But Blizzard you clearly dropped the Buck.

(For example Scabbard, in the slot of a weapon or Belt would change the art to contain a scabbard on the side it is put when not in use)

Heck you could of made an artifact slot on certain items even to slightly alter their visuals and it being acquired from Archaeology, but you didn't why? This profession had So much potential but instead left us bored out of our minds.


Added for Justice of GGXX.
Posted this on another thread, but I think it deserves mention - there's two things that really bug me about the profession, and I think that getting it to a point where at the very least, people aren't heartbroken by it wouldn't be very hard.

The bugs, and the nature of the spawns.

The bugs, should they actually exist, must be fixed. If people are actually getting locked out of having a particular item spawn for them, then that's just wrong and needs to be addressed. As for the spawn locations; I think the most elegant possible solution would be to have each zone where you can dig spawn sites regularly, up to a maximum number for the skill you have, and for the zone.

This would allow them to adjust the "rarity" of certain items (I'm looking at you Tol'vir) without oversimplifying the profession. It would allow archeology to be leveled along with natural leveling, encourage players to go to higher level areas (higher level = more spawns) and allow them to adjust rarity as needed.

It would also encourage people to continue leveling, and provide a benefit to actually being maxed out with it, as opposed to a conditional disadvantage. (for troll sites in eastern kingdom)

Finally, it would also negate the most complained about element of RNG in the profession, the lack of control over the sites. You don't like/want dwarf digsites? Don't farm in twilight highlands. You just want to get the sword? Farm the troll digsites when they pop in stranglethorn, and ignore the rest. If you're really into it, go everywhere that troll sites can spawn and farm those up too, no reason to just stick to eastern kingdoms. All of em farmed out? Eh, time for a break while I wait for them to respawn... hmmm, I think I'll do an instance. Or wait! OMG! Tolvir just popped in Uldum! Wooohooo, been waiting on that one!

See what I mean?

By shifting the nature of the RNG based spawns slightly, control feels like it has fallen back into the hands of the player. It hasn't really, and everything could be precisely as rare as it is now, with Tol'vir spawns for example only showing up say once every hour or two up to even a small maximum and the entire issue people had with them is gone. It still might take ages to GET stuff, but you'll at least feel like you're making progress.
there are so many places where this design falls off the rails. so many possible fixes. it feels like a perfect storm of suck. archeology is:

accessible to everyone as a second profession so universal access, not in itself bad but places it in a limbo between optional fluff and standard part of play.

no hard limitations on doing it, only limited by time investment. it can take everything you're willing to give it and ask for more.

BiS gear, which effectively categorizes as current end game content or highest tier content. if this is where they place the best gear, this is what they want people to do.

lack of low to middle end rewards which enhance the focus on the BiS portion. No recurring content means no longevity other than an artificially extended grind.

very simple repetitive mechanic which lacks enough depth to make it a compelling process. if the activity were fun or rewarding in itself like a pvp or dungeon experience the grind aspects wouldn't sit in the forefront. it's a one button activity.

personal instancing, which forces active participation compared to passive gathering. other than doing it while waiting for ques, it is independent of other activity in the game. it is not embedded in other activity. when you do archeology you just do archeology.

disproportionate amount of time spent on travel as opposed to activity. despite being a one button activity, the majority of the time is spent doing even less than that.

no outlet for obsolete currency and unbalanced distribution of content forcing wasted effort. some races complete easily while others hard, but the distribution of sites does not reflect that which leads to exponentially decreasing returns on effort. since completed race fragments currently serve no purpose, effort is completely wasted.

very low drop rate which places average return on time investment into the exponentially bad part of the effort curve. this is the easiest part to adjust but affects the level of time sink dramatically. not really that bad by itself but compounds all the previous elements to a length of time well beyond what can be considered enjoyable.

and finally everyone's favorite the multi-layered rng... as an isolated mechanic honestly i don't object completely to it... however... unlike other rare rng drops, this is actual gameplay altering items that affect the strength of our characters comparatively. this is a key difference, since the rng is primarily luck based. another player of equal gear/skill/etc will obtain an advantage over me in the main wow content simply by virtue of luck.

this may or may not change in later tiers of gear or future patches but for now this is the reality we face. more than anything else i am offended at how poor this design is. it makes me question the quality of everything i see from the devs now as i used to have full faith in blizzard as only releasing quality products.

many good suggestions have been made in numerous threads how to fix it, but honestly there are so many different ways to fix it because there are so many things wrong with it. the announced changes so far do nothing to address any of these issues so i am not hopeful.

yes, zin'rokh and archeology destroyed my hope.
01/13/2011 7:03 AMPosted by Lehane


disproportionate amount of time spent on travel as opposed to activity. despite being a one button activity, the majority of the time is spent doing even less than that.

no outlet for obsolete currency and unbalanced distribution of content forcing wasted effort. some races complete easily while others hard, but the distribution of sites does not reflect that which leads to exponentially decreasing returns on effort. since completed race fragments currently serve no purpose, effort is completely wasted.

very low drop rate which places average return on time investment into the exponentially bad part of the effort curve. this is the easiest part to adjust but affects the level of time sink dramatically. not really that bad by itself but compounds all the previous elements to a length of time well beyond what can be considered enjoyable.

and finally everyone's favorite the multi-layered rng... as an isolated mechanic honestly i don't object completely to it... however... unlike other rare rng drops, this is actual gameplay altering items that affect the strength of our characters comparatively. this is a key difference, since the rng is primarily luck based. another player of equal gear/skill/etc will obtain an advantage over me in the main wow content simply by virtue of luck.


I agree with you Lehane, and with this part of your post in particular. I strongly believe that this profession needs to have an artificial constraint on the amount of time that you can put in, and as I posted earlier, adjusting the dig site spawn manner would be the best way to do it.

Aside from everything else, its what needs to be fixed. I can deal with a fixed amount of X particular fragments of a certain race, upon which the rarity of such and such is based - its logical and makes sense. It would also be a great deal less soul-crushing.
01/13/2011 7:14 AMPosted by Gertwaz
It looks like the trolls are out in force today.


yep.
Just make sure you tag it trolling to keep the D-bags out.
I followed the prior thread since it began, but never posted. I'm posting now because I find the locking of the original without blue response to be somewhat disturbing.

I've more than likely sunk 100+ hours into archeology -- most of which was in large, single chunks. This is still arguably less than many who have posted here (in the original thread), yet a substantial investment for me.

I have been luckier than most: I have the Professior title, have found both Zin'rokh and Tyrande's Favorite Doll. Zin'rokh was found around 40-50 solves and I can't recall when the doll popped up. Regardless, as cool as the sword is, I can't use it. This is my main and I don't use alts beyond extra primary professions. :/

I started the profession for the sands recipe (3-4 jars, all organs), but shifted focus to the dwarf staff for quite some time. I've found neither.

There is nothing fun about this profession. I did not have fun leveling it, I did not have fun solving hundreds of artifacts past 450 (I think I'm around 220-250 total solves). I only managed to get through what I did by hooking up a second monitor and watching episodes of Battlestar Galactica.

I can safely say I hated this profession from start to finish and still hate it, despite the cool rewards (and I love flavor items.)

There is little I can add to the criticisms or suggestions regarding this profession other than to add my voice in with those supporting major changes. I like the ideas in the OP -- as other ideas like a fragment trader or hard, set limits on rewards (5000 fragments for a rare proc or some such, or a fragment-to-special-badge turn-in, etc.) -- although I would scrap the entire profession and start over, had I the power. In fact, I think having BiS items in the reward table was madness to begin with ... but the damage is done and the outcry for removing them now would be terrible to behold.

Alas, I am afraid any changes will be too little too late and Blizzard will not retroactively reward anyone for their time invested, even in the cases of bugs.

I've long since given up finding either staves or the recipe. I took the Professor title as a consolation prize.

Good luck to anyone who has the resolve (and re-solve, and re-solve, and re-solve) to continue.
01/13/2011 8:33 AMPosted by Sarad
I followed the prior thread since it began, but never posted. I'm posting now because I find the locking of the original without blue response to be somewhat disturbing.


I also found this disturbing, perhaps even insulting, to lock it down after 107 pages without a single response. Hopefully this thread is better constructed, more focused, and will get some attention.
I've done a lot of boring stuff since i started this game in summer of 2005, rep grinding for all kinds of stuff.

All of this stuff had a item or a goal at the end that you knew you could reach.

After almost 100 troll solves, 65 dwarf solves, and i feel cheated.

I have not gotten the staff,sword

Troll solve voodoo doll, another doll yet another, 3 in a row but no sword lol.

I have never felt the way i do about anything in this game tell i started arch, i hate it, i feel my time has been wasted.
As always; the drop taking longer depending on the person is not some sort of bug, it's luck of the person.

I got the staff before 525 on my DK, but haven't seen any other high quality rare on both my toons.

What I hope everyone will realize is that the reason it had no blue responses is that from the first post, to the last post, it was never constructive.

People telling Blizzard how awful they are, the very first post was just some guy ranting about how he hadn't gotten the sword yet, and then just a load of personal attacks.

If the topic can remain civil, then it will get somewhere. But the original thread wasn't even meant to be a constructive thread, it was meant as a giant complaint.

I like all of the ideas (Even as someone who can solo the GB dig site with ease) it's insane how awful that dig site is.

The only one that I don't agree with is just up and being able to choose your race. I think once you have all the rares, you should have the option to turn that race off, but I don't think you should be able to choose which one you want from the get go.

Please don't tear my head off, but think of Archeology as an actual profession, you aren't always going down and digging up something awesome, sometimes you get the exact opposite of what you want.
01/13/2011 9:29 AMPosted by Xas
RNG is RNG, amirite?!


Please do the right thing and report posts like this for trolling.

This is exactly how the other thread got out of hand, but yet it was blamed on me because I defended myself.


You're defending your points without evidence. Just because you write with grammar and punctuation, doesn't make you any less of a troll.

Please post a screenshot of someone who earned Zin'rohk AFTER 525 Archeology and maybe we'll take you more seriously.

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