Sylvanas' role in Legion

Story Forum
Prev 1 3 4 5 Next
08/15/2015 08:55 AMPosted by Daemonette
For Lorthemar the reason I say that he would be replaced is because in the WC lore Lorthemar is a lower rank then Alleria. So once she hears what happens and comes home to see what happens. Because of her being the highest ranking member of their people. They would want her to take the role of leader. Lorthemar would not argue as it is the high/blood elves way.

Nothing against him but if you are using the lore of the High/Blood elves she would become their leader if she takes the job.


Where did you pull that out of?She was not higher ranked the Lorthemar, and she has been gone for 30 plus years. 30 years in which Lor'themar has risen in rank and was appointed the Regent Lord by the last Prince of Quel'thalas. He's also been there, working to save and make the Sin'dorei people a safer and more secure future. She has been MIA for 3 decades. She also abandoned her people, against the order of the King. All she has is name recognition, which has been -severely- damaged by Sylvanas and Vereesa. With all of those strikes against her, why would the Sin'dorei want to replace Lor'themar with Alleria?
08/15/2015 07:13 PMPosted by Scryll
Gilneas was invaded. Invasion isn't evil, certainly no in the Warcraft universe. If it were, than the humans earned everything that happened to them by their own two thousand years of effort at taking troll lands for their own and ethnically cleansing them of the natives.


Actually that is pretty damned evil. Especially when you do it to a nation that hasn't provoked you. I know you will bring up the humans and trolls, and the high elf/troll conflict, but there you are ignoring that for the most part is time. A lot of time has passed, as in millennium. To say that any action done back then is just as relevant as anything in the last decade is disingenuous Scryll. It isn't because the borders have been as they are (human and troll lands), stable, for hundreds to thousands of years. Was the initial conflict bad? Yes. Is that relevant now, 2-6 thousand years later? No.
08/16/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Kynrind


Actually that is pretty damned evil. Especially when you do it to a nation that hasn't provoked you. I know you will bring up the humans and trolls, and the high elf/troll conflict, but there you are ignoring that for the most part is time. A lot of time has passed, as in millennium. To say that any action done back then is just as relevant as anything in the last decade is disingenuous Scryll. It isn't because the borders have been as they are (human and troll lands), stable, for hundreds to thousands of years. Was the initial conflict bad? Yes. Is that relevant now, 2-6 thousand years later? No.


What the Forsaken do is no different than what any of the other races have you do throughout the game.

To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.
08/16/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Carmageddon
08/16/2015 02:12 PMPosted by Varmreft
People here are delusional for one major reason.

Genn Greymane is a major character. His bio talks about Sylvannas murdering his son. There is absolutely no way he isn't involved in her storyline in legion.

Kinda hard to have a redemption storyline, when you constantly have to acknowledge what Sylvannas did in Gilneas (invade a neutral nation, slaughter the people, kill the heir). Unlike the ridiculous fanboys in this thread, most people would recognize that as pure evil.


No, they wouldn't. Because whatever nation you belong to in real life has done things like that or worse. Often much worse. I live in Canada, generally thought of as a tolerant, peaceful nation, but what we did to First Nations people is appalling. Most of us recognize that war is terrible and awful, and so is conquest and expansion, especially for the losers, but we also recognize that history is complex.

To cite an earlier example you've discussed, the humans and elves of Azeroth invaded a neutral nation, slaughtered the people, and presumably killed the rulers and heirs. Did it make them evil when they did it? Does it make them evil now?


Right now Sylvannas's soul is doomed to eternal damnation. This idea that she has done nothing wrong is ridiculous. 2 years ago even blizzard said she would have a reckoning of some kind.

Do you really believe that they would make Genn a major character and the whole Gilneas business isn't even going to come up?

Saying her attempted genocide is justifed, because of other attmpeted genocide doesn't make genocide less evil.

One major character literally murdered the son of another major character, it is going to come up and it is going to need to be resolved somehow.
08/16/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Splub
08/16/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Kynrind


Actually that is pretty damned evil. Especially when you do it to a nation that hasn't provoked you. I know you will bring up the humans and trolls, and the high elf/troll conflict, but there you are ignoring that for the most part is time. A lot of time has passed, as in millennium. To say that any action done back then is just as relevant as anything in the last decade is disingenuous Scryll. It isn't because the borders have been as they are (human and troll lands), stable, for hundreds to thousands of years. Was the initial conflict bad? Yes. Is that relevant now, 2-6 thousand years later? No.


What the Forsaken do is no different than what any of the other races have you do throughout the game.

To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.


The fact is Syvlannas is still the indisputable bad guy in that storyline and it is going to be coming up again. Anyone hoping for a warm feel good redemption without resolving what she did in Gilneas is delusional.
Sylvanas is going to be a bad !@# and show she cares about her people like she always has and be morally grey with fighting Greymane as I'm sure he is going to get a lot of fun development as well. Also Alleria better not be buddy with the Horde at all, she should be worse than Jania is right now. Alleria has had a chip on her shoulder since the 2nd war against ALL orcs and trolls( I know it was the Amani, but she's still racist) and has a massive blood lust towards the Horde. Her and Lo'themar better get into manny confrontations as well.
08/16/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Splub
What the Forsaken do is no different than what any of the other races have you do throughout the game.

To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.


No other race is literally killing people, then ripping them away from the afterlife to bind their souls to their bodies (imperfectly since it's shadow/void magic/necromancy), -then- ask them if they want to be undead, just to increase their population because they cannot procreate. Really, there is no reason for the forsaken to increase their numbers. They aren't a race and aren't natural. Undeath is an unnatural occurrence and it shouldn't be inflicted upon the dead (especially if you just finished killing them). That they ask the new undead afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that making them undead is an evil act.

With the Gilneans, they were literally doing -nothing- to provoke the forsaken since they were behind a wall. I consider it an evil act to attack someone just because you want what they have. It's not like the Gilneans were occupying Lordaeron territory.
08/16/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Splub
To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.


Centaur, Quilboar, and Gnolls are actually very aggressive and inclined to be the ones to provoke first. So not really a good point you're trying to get across with those three, but you might have a valid point with Murlocs.

Bringing up the Humans and Elves invading the Troll is fair, and that's likely why there never will be any real lasting peace between those races since Blizzard simply likes bringing back conflict between the factions.
08/16/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Splub
08/16/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Kynrind


Actually that is pretty damned evil. Especially when you do it to a nation that hasn't provoked you. I know you will bring up the humans and trolls, and the high elf/troll conflict, but there you are ignoring that for the most part is time. A lot of time has passed, as in millennium. To say that any action done back then is just as relevant as anything in the last decade is disingenuous Scryll. It isn't because the borders have been as they are (human and troll lands), stable, for hundreds to thousands of years. Was the initial conflict bad? Yes. Is that relevant now, 2-6 thousand years later? No.


What the Forsaken do is no different than what any of the other races have you do throughout the game.

To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.


I actually feel really bad every time we have to kill kolbolds. they just want to dig up rocks and have candles to light the way. I feel like offering them a lantern or even some fresh candles in exchange for the ore they would dig up would be a much better solution to any inhabitation than just killing them all every time we find them.
Dear heavens some of you are so misguided on Sylvannas.
08/16/2015 11:39 PMPosted by Kynrind
No other race is literally killing people, then ripping them away from the afterlife to bind their souls to their bodies (imperfectly since it's shadow/void magic/necromancy), -then- ask them if they want to be undead, just to increase their population because they cannot procreate.


every race does that minus the asking part, since that is what DKs do. Trolls, Humans, Orcs, Forsaken, Quillbore, elves, and Draenei all practice necromancy to one degree or another.

trolls have loa that are tied to the dead, or may be the dead.

humans are the necromancers of choice for the scourge and have some history of the practice since it had to be outlawed in most places.

Orcs had the original DKs and the original LK. plus all their spirit stuff that happens in outland/Dreanor

Forsaken... that is their thing.

Quillbore allied with the scourge and started making undead Quillbore

elves have wisps and ghosts and things like that across all their cultures.

draenei in outland were stealing ghosts of dead Draenei in the crypts instance. in Dreanor they apparently kept their dead in the Achiundun place...unfortunately Terron'gor ate them all.

very few seem to have clean hands when it comes to using the souls of the dead for personal/political profit
08/16/2015 04:33 PMPosted by Varmreft
The fact is Syvlannas is still the indisputable bad guy

Not really.
The thing is supposed to be that Syvlanas is walking on a fine line.
08/17/2015 12:05 AMPosted by Feraldren
Dear heavens some of you are so misguided on Sylvannas.


It really is sad when people have to whitewash openly hostile mob races to try to make a point.
08/16/2015 11:39 PMPosted by Kynrind
08/16/2015 03:49 PMPosted by Splub
What the Forsaken do is no different than what any of the other races have you do throughout the game.

To isolate the Forsaken just because it is done to another playable race is ridiculous. What about the Centaur, Quilboar, Gnolls, Murloc, etc? These races are almost always indigenous and it is usually unprovoked.


No other race is literally killing people, then ripping them away from the afterlife to bind their souls to their bodies (imperfectly since it's shadow/void magic/necromancy), -then- ask them if they want to be undead, just to increase their population because they cannot procreate. Really, there is no reason for the forsaken to increase their numbers. They aren't a race and aren't natural. Undeath is an unnatural occurrence and it shouldn't be inflicted upon the dead (especially if you just finished killing them). That they ask the new undead afterwards doesn't excuse the fact that making them undead is an evil act.


It would definitely be best if the Forsaken just died out, but I can understand them wanting to keep their "race" going.
08/17/2015 12:21 AMPosted by Murphio
08/16/2015 04:33 PMPosted by Varmreft
The fact is Syvlannas is still the indisputable bad guy

Not really.
The thing is supposed to be that Syvlanas is walking on a fine line.


She was full on cackling Saturday morning villain in Gilneas, which is clearly part of the storyline they will be continuing.

1. Murdered the Heir
2. Kill tons of Civilians
3. Used a WMD that she was expressly told not to
4. Enslaved the local populace and made them work in mines.

No way to paint that as walking a fine line.
08/17/2015 12:16 AMPosted by Juibloc
08/16/2015 11:39 PMPosted by Kynrind
No other race is literally killing people, then ripping them away from the afterlife to bind their souls to their bodies (imperfectly since it's shadow/void magic/necromancy), -then- ask them if they want to be undead, just to increase their population because they cannot procreate.


every race does that minus the asking part, since that is what DKs do. Trolls, Humans, Orcs, Forsaken, Quillbore, elves, and Draenei all practice necromancy to one degree or another.

trolls have loa that are tied to the dead, or may be the dead.

humans are the necromancers of choice for the scourge and have some history of the practice since it had to be outlawed in most places.

Orcs had the original DKs and the original LK. plus all their spirit stuff that happens in outland/Dreanor

Forsaken... that is their thing.

Quillbore allied with the scourge and started making undead Quillbore

elves have wisps and ghosts and things like that across all their cultures.

draenei in outland were stealing ghosts of dead Draenei in the crypts instance. in Dreanor they apparently kept their dead in the Achiundun place...unfortunately Terron'gor ate them all.

very few seem to have clean hands when it comes to using the souls of the dead for personal/political profit


Wisps and ghosts, for the most part, choose to stay. Letting spirits move on naturally seems to be a big thing for Elves..

.....

As long as, you know, their goddess doesn't keep them chained to Azeroth to worship her from undeath.
08/16/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Kynrind
08/15/2015 07:13 PMPosted by Scryll
Gilneas was invaded. Invasion isn't evil, certainly no in the Warcraft universe. If it were, than the humans earned everything that happened to them by their own two thousand years of effort at taking troll lands for their own and ethnically cleansing them of the natives.


Actually that is pretty damned evil. Especially when you do it to a nation that hasn't provoked you. I know you will bring up the humans and trolls, and the high elf/troll conflict, but there you are ignoring that for the most part is time. A lot of time has passed, as in millennium. To say that any action done back then is just as relevant as anything in the last decade is disingenuous Scryll. It isn't because the borders have been as they are (human and troll lands), stable, for hundreds to thousands of years. Was the initial conflict bad? Yes. Is that relevant now, 2-6 thousand years later? No.


That's a cop out and you know it. Besides which, it wasn't just ancient past. If that were the case, the Arathor Empire wouldn't have spread across the entire northern subcontinent over such an extended period of time. It did and it was ethnically cleansing the trolls the whole way. They were still engaged in such activity when Tides of Darkness rolled around, it's why Zul'jin was a prisoner the orcs could rescue in the first place. And we see Stormwind continuing the pattern even now, against the jungle trolls.
08/17/2015 01:46 AMPosted by Varmreft
She was full on cackling Saturday morning villain in Gilneas, which is clearly part of the storyline they will be continuing.

1. Murdered the Heir
2. Kill tons of Civilians
3. Used a WMD that she was expressly told not to
1. Heir murdered himself by purposefully jumping in front of a flying arrow.
2. Garrosh commanded the Forsaken to kill everyone while Sylvanas was away in Northrend
3. Garrosh commanded the Forsaken to kill themselves stupidly using no tactics. He forced them to walk into Horde artillery fire and said once the pile of their corpses was high enough he would walk his Orcs over the top of the Gilneas wall. Him telling them not to use a basic acid bomb that they are immune to in combat is more tactical stupidity that they were right to ignore.
08/14/2015 02:46 PMPosted by Daemonette
want to see her sister coming back. I want her to take the roll of blood elf leader.


WTH!!

Over my cold, dead body!!

Alleria has ZERO right to demand *any* (yes not even the lowest of the low) military position on Quel´Thalas after she walked out on the kingdom in WC II to search revenge.

She´s a popular ally hero, let them keep "it".

08/15/2015 08:55 AMPosted by Daemonette
For Lorthemar the reason I say that he would be replaced is because in the WC lore Lorthemar is a lower rank then Alleria. So once she hears what happens and comes home to see what happens. Because of her being the highest ranking member of their people. They would want her to take the role of leader. Lorthemar would not argue as it is the high/blood elves way.


We DO have lore material (Blood of the Highborne) in which is extrictly established Lor´themar IS a Ranger Lord (and basically the highest surviving military unit in Quel´thalas after the whole Arthas mess, it´s in the novella. He was in charge of the survivors until Kael arrived). Where in the name of god did you saw or read that Alleria had a higher rank than him!!

And again: she´s basicaly a traitor to the kingdom (by proxy of desserting her military position against Anasterian´s orders, so she´s currently the lowest of the low military wise on Quel´Thalas). The only thing she may become is a prisioner if she goes to Quel´Thalas with even the subtlest subersive intention, nothing more and nothing less.

Kyndrind´s argument in post #61 is all you need to know to discard your ridiculous notion of Alleria becoming Blood Elf leader "for the lols"
Realistically speaking, Sylvanas will only be killed if the Forsaken are given a reason to want her dead. So, if she is going to die, it won't be because of Gilneas or whatever, but because she does something to make both sides turn on her, including her own personality cult, for the purpose of raid bossing.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum