People exagerrate about Cataclysm IMO

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Well, now that WoD has taken the crown as the "Worst xpac" Yes, Cataclysm is now seen as one of the better xpacs.
Yes. It honestly feels as if it was always there when they did the revamp. They felt naturally placed. People had been asking about Grim Batol for ages, and I believe that was a zone they wanted to add same as Hyjal. Can't say the same for Uldum, but it's there now.


I think the Vash'jr and the Throne of the Tides questline abruptly stopping mid expansion, never to be heard from again, and how half of Uldum is a pop culture reference negates your point.

I will admit, the reps didn't add much to the story, but eh. Reps never have added much. They're usually a self contained bubble, save a few of the Wrath ones.


This is simply not true. In BC and Wrath, reputations were a major part of the lore and overall plotline. Even in Vanilla with the AD, you had to earn rep with them to unlock the final raid. If you didn't do Netherwing or the Skyguard or the Ashtongue Deathsworn, you missed a large chunk of the overall story arc. Same in Wrath but with AC, KotEB, and the WrA.

OVer ToC? Or Even The ruby Sanctum? Most people seem to think those are the worst raids, but ok then. Throne is forgettable, and it's not too well designed. I can see your reasoning. I'd say it's on the same Level as the EYe of Eternity, even going as far as throwing us in the air and we get loot out of something that spawns from the boss.


I actually really enjoyed ToC. But we are arguing over opinions, I like this raid, well I like that raid more! Moot point. But my original post was about reasons why I don't like Cata, raids is one of them.

LOOK! NAXXRAMAS! Look, Onyxia! Look, Arthas! Look at all the snow. Isn't the variation amazing? Cold and Snow. Cold and snow! I can do it for Wrath too. My points are just as valid as yours are. Blizzard has always re-used assests like that. To say otherwise is foolish. You could say LOOK ORCS! Or LOOK HUMANS! And have the same point. (Also, Lol at Onyixa coming back twice. She does not stay dead.)


I will concede Naxxramas. Even though only a very small percentage of players actually got to see the original. Onyxia was released in tandem with a WoW anniversary, and isn't included in the lore or storyline of WotLK at all. Ragnaros heavily influences the events of Cata. Nefarian heavily influences the events of Cata. Going back to Northrend is a major plot point in Cata. Tweaking the numbers on a boss to release in tandem with a WoW anniversary really isn't the same thing. Arthas was unique to the World of Warcraft, but not to the Warcraft universe, so as someone with no knowledge of the Warcraft universe outside of WoW, he is for all intents and purposes, new content. It is the same reason I didn't say Look! Deathwing! He was in WC2, though I consider him new content because he was new to WoW.

We can split hairs on the issue, and put up straw man arguments with Look! Orcs! and Look! Humans! or we can realize that yeah, Cata really did rehash a lot of old content players already experienced.
I spent way too much time trying to get the archaeology staff in early cata. That didn't start me off on the right foot to be honest.

In hindsight that wasn't the best thing. But I'm sure plenty of warriors lost their minds trying to get the sword as well.
09/07/2015 12:38 AMPosted by Aznable
The whole old world revamp was a very ballsy move and it was really needed. I miss certain old zones like Azshara but I'm not going to try to say that zone was more enjoyable back then.


The old world remake was ten times worse than a year of DS to me. So many players will never see those old, long quest lines.

The first tier of raiding was one of the best Blizzard ever did. Firelands overall was a pretty trash raid. It had six fairly under-tuned bosses and then a great encounter at the end.

The first two PVP seasons (prior to the out of control trinkets and rogue daggers) were probably the two best seasons ever. It was far better than anything in MOP or WOD.
09/07/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Haysus
I think the Vash'jr and the Throne of the Tides questline abruptly stopping mid expansion, never to be heard from again, and how half of Uldum is a pop culture reference negates your point.


What about all those other plot-lines in Vanilla and elsewhere that ended. Also, zones have always, always had Pop Culture references. Harrison Jones is overused in Uldum, I'll say that. I still enjoy Uldum, though. Tol'vir stuff is really good. And unfortunately Harrison becomes more popular. YOU GUYS HAVE FREAKING BRANN BRONZEBEARD, USE HIM BLIZZARD! I'm Sad Throne of Tides was dropped, but there's always that one possibility it crops up in a later Expac. At this point it's up in the air though.

09/07/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Haysus
Tweaking the numbers on a boss to release in tandem with a WoW anniversary really isn't the same thing.


Well. Onyxia is important to the Varian Storyline, the one that wasn't resolved until Wrath when he showed back up.
I liked Cata, but the old work remake was not needed, and I will allways hate blizz for doing it.
I don't think Cataclysm was good at all.

-Ham-handed stories in which the Alliance always got shafted.

-Overly-tuned dungeons with bad rewards.

-Nothing to do at end-game.

I mean, let's not forget that LFR was made in Cataclysm for a reason. The new guild leveling system annihilated all the casual guilds, making raiding prohibitive for many people, thus necessitating the creation of an ability to make the raids accessible.
What about all those other plot-lines in Vanilla and elsewhere that ended. Also, zones have always, always had Pop Culture references. Harrison Jones is overused in Uldum, I'll say that. I still enjoy Uldum, though. Tol'vir stuff is really good. And unfortunately Harrison becomes more popular. YOU GUYS HAVE FREAKING BRANN BRONZEBEARD, USE HIM BLIZZARD! I'm Sad Throne of Tides was dropped, but there's always that one possibility it crops up in a later Expac. At this point it's up in the air though.


There will always be a few minor plotlines that don't fill out. Nothing has been on the same magnitude as an entire zone's questline basically being erased mid-expansion though. Nothing on the scale of Neptulon (the strongest of the elemental lords) aiding us in battle and then being carried off by Ozumat and disappearing forever. Nothing even comes close.

And yes, I don't mind the occasional pop culture reference like Haris Pilton or Pinkus Floydus. However, when half of a zone dubbed 'the cradle of Azeroth's civilization' is one giant pop culture reference? The lore, tone, and dignity of the entire zone is demolished.

09/07/2015 03:05 PMPosted by Pärker
Well. Onyxia is important to the Varian Storyline, the one that wasn't resolved until Wrath when he showed back up.


If you want to make the argument that Onyxia isn't just a holiday boss in Wrath, please, enlighten me. How does Onyxia influence the storyline of Wrath of the Lich King? She was already killed in the lore in Vanilla. She is nothing but a holiday boss for the sake of WoW's anniversary.
A lot of zones like Darkshore, Azshara, Thousand Needles were ruined in Cata. A lot of the charm from the old world was taken away.
09/07/2015 03:07 PMPosted by Mintedcow
I liked Cata, but the old work remake was not needed, and I will allways hate blizz for doing it.


Auberdine and Southshore :(.........still not over it.

But I didn't like Cata, I felt like I was going though a tunnel, not questing in a world, smh.
Who would have guessed that WoW would eventually get so bad Cataclysm looked extremely desirable by comparison?

Cata had a ton of problems and deserved its reputation as the worst WoW expansion. That WoD has clearly pushed the bar for worst even lower speaks volumes about it.
09/07/2015 03:25 PMPosted by Nixx
Who would have guessed that WoW would eventually get so bad Cataclysm looked extremely desirable by comparison?

Cata had a ton of problems and deserved its reputation as the worst WoW expansion. That WoD has clearly pushed the bar for worst even lower speaks volumes about it.


"Extremely desirable" is overselling it.

WoD is bad. WoD might be worse than Cataclysm. But WoD is not quite so bad that Cataclysm looks appetizing by comparison.
09/07/2015 03:29 PMPosted by Enekie
"Extremely desirable" is overselling it.

WoD is bad. WoD might be worse than Cataclysm. But WoD is not quite so bad that Cataclysm looks appetizing by comparison.


It's almost like opinions exist and vary between individuals.
09/07/2015 03:32 PMPosted by Nixx
09/07/2015 03:29 PMPosted by Enekie
"Extremely desirable" is overselling it.

WoD is bad. WoD might be worse than Cataclysm. But WoD is not quite so bad that Cataclysm looks appetizing by comparison.


It's almost like opinions exist and vary between individuals.


True. However, only my opinions are valid and everyone else is varying degrees of wrong.
You are so wrongerer.
09/07/2015 03:34 PMPosted by Anja
True. However, only my opinions are valid and everyone else is varying degrees of wrong.
You are so wrongerer.


We need to be careful to no longer have the same opinions then or the contradiction would probably destroy the universe.
09/07/2015 03:32 PMPosted by Nixx
09/07/2015 03:29 PMPosted by Enekie
"Extremely desirable" is overselling it.

WoD is bad. WoD might be worse than Cataclysm. But WoD is not quite so bad that Cataclysm looks appetizing by comparison.


It's almost like opinions exist and vary between individuals.


That may be, but saying something like cata being "extremely desirable" is... rather extreme.

WoD is pretty terrible, but I have zero desire to go back to Cata because even if we did I would still have nothing to do.
Opinions are opinions, but Cataclysm still kicked off the subscriber drop that persists to this day. WoD saw the most severe collapse, but Cataclysm plummetted until MoP stabilized it.
09/07/2015 10:34 AMPosted by Suanyu
One of the biggest problems with Cata was that dungeon finder was a thing. When I ran heroics in a guild group, while definitely more challenging, things tended to go fine. But with dungeon finder it was a massive headache.

Stonecore in LFD *cringe*


Yeah, some runs of stonecore and grim batol with LFD brought deaths that broke my gear twice over. But I still assert they were better and more interesting dungeons that todays.

Trash with mechanics that mattered. Rooms where mobs had to be pull carefully or packs you wanted to avoid, sneak past, altogether. Bosses still kill you if you screw up and disregard mechanics in WoD but it feels like you can get away with a lot more that you shouldn't be able to. Like getting hit by the aoe on Sadana Bloodfury in Shadowmoon Burial grounds without falling over dead. Or Bonemaw and his inhale just knocking you off the platform if you get caught and he eats you and not guaranteeing certain death.

It was just really clear with bosses like Ozruk with his stomp and damage shield or Eridax with his adds, shield, knock back, and room wide aoe. It was pretty clear if you stood next to Ozruk when he stomped or kept attack with his shield up you died. I'd say with the default death recap this would be even more clear to the player today, though in my experience addons were commonly being used for this purpose already back then.
5 additional player levels is not just a number, it directly correlates to amount of content received (ex. amount of Wrath zones to amount of Cata zones.) Additionally, the amount of time spent leveling in the Cata zones was a joke. I remember the realm first 85's started popping up about 4 hours after release. BC and Wrath, no one hit max level after only 4 hours.


I don't think this is a game issue. I think players over the years have just gotten insanely good at leveling.
Did you know some people actually prep for leveling? With consumables, potions, food, flasks, calculated a quest route before hand, strategically place their hearth location, and even enlist the assistance of multiple parties or good portions of guilds in order to reach the max level as fast as the game allows.

Leveling really is just a number, but I do believe it is an important number. The rate, not speed, at which you level up is important.

You can have 5 levels that take 10 hours. You experience leveling up once every two hours. And the rewards and changes that go along with leveling. Unlocking things, gaining player power, growing.

You can also have 10 levels that take 10 hours so the time between experiencing leveling up is shorter.

Sitting down playing the game and leveling up before you finish that session feels good. I feel sitting down and only making it 1/2 or 3/4th of the way through a level before you end your session because each one takes 3+ hours doesn't feel like you have progressed or grown. It doesn't feel good.

I don't think number of levels should be connected in any meaningful way with amount of content.
09/07/2015 01:13 AMPosted by Nibbleyabum
Takes what... 2.5 expansions for a "hated" expansion to be liked?

I didn't troll the forums in Vanilla or BC, but I started paying attention to them during Wrath. "Wrath baby" was coined, and people endlessly talked about how "awful" Wrath was. Everything about it (with VERY occasional praise for certain portions of the story, e.g. Battle for Undercity) was derided as garbage.

Then Cata came, and it was the new posterchild for hatred, with much derision thrown at "wrath babies" for being "spoiled" and whining about how "hard" Cata was. Repeat the derision for Cata.

Then MoP. Early comparisons to Wrath, especially with regards to ease of dungeons. Derision from every direction, longing for the "good old days" of yore. Then whisperings of how awesome Wrath was. Finally MoP was considered an utter failure, derided for all the same reasons as Wrath and Cata (with the exception of difficulty of heroics in Cata).

Now as WoD gets long in the tooth, Wrath is held up as the pinnacle of WoW's success, and Cata is beginning to get whispered as being good.

So what, by the end of the expansion after Legion people will begin to look fondly on WoD, and by the expansion after that it will be remembered as something enjoyable.

FWIW, WoD is the most fun I've had leveling in a long time. Aside from some Garrison complaints, I found leveling in WoD very enjoyable.


It's amazing isn't it, different people had different perspectives and there is no way that you were listening to the same people who were hating on wrath, which suddenly started liking it. I for one never hated wrath and always though (especially during that expansion) that I was having tons of fun.

Listening to different people will give you different opinions on things, it's not rocket science.

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