@WarcraftDevs: no hard cap on Valor

General Discussion
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10/20/2015 02:56 PMPosted by Apathyx
If you look at SoO's valor system (The one we're re-implementing). The problem it had was you were limited to ONE upgrade a week.


Which was honestly a good thing, imo. It made the upgrades a gradual nerf, instead of the team suddenly going up 5-10 ilvls across the board in a week or two.
10/21/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Ningjinq

2. LFR participation has dipped too low and need to get people back doing it to basically carry the queue timers for everyone else.


They could just return LFR's loot model to the MoP variation. I'd probably routinely do it on at least some of my alts that way.
10/21/2015 12:06 PMPosted by Ningjinq
Well, this one does have a cap in that you can't grind the same content over and over which I think is specifically what they were worried about in Wrath. You won't be running dungeons till your eyes bleed.

Its also possible that they are re-examining what people's perspectives on it have changed. As with the examples I gave, there are already plenty of things people don't do to min/max. Especially early on in an xpac. Its possible they want currency to become part of that culture too.


There's an old saying: "the more things change, the more they stay the same"

Really though, running 1 heroic dungeon daily followed by 8 mythic dungeons, 12 LFRs, and 5 timewalking dungeons, pretty much is running dungeons until your eyes bleed. Sure, the scenery changes, but it's still being asked to chain run up to 32 instances over the course of the week (on top of your raids).
10/21/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Ningjinq
2. LFR participation has dipped too low and need to get people back doing it to basically carry the queue timers for everyone else.


when you lose half the paying subscribers in less than a year participation for anything is going to be low
Personally I don't like the soft cap for Valor, too much content to do to keep up with my raid partners.

Also, I don't like that you can't earn Valor from Normal, Heroic and Mythic raiding. I have zero interest in running old dungeons or LFR. This just pushes me into content I don't want to do to keep up with raid group.

I love the idea of Valor being brought back into the game. Just sad Valor is being used by Blizzard to "create content" to do.
10/21/2015 12:14 PMPosted by Zaino

LFR gets valor

heroic raiding gets the moose

both sides complain that they dont want to do the others content and that this isnt fair


One makes sense and is exactly like ahead of the curve from MoP.

The other is arbitrary and really doesn't make logical sense.

10/21/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Ningjinq
LFR participation has dipped too low and need to get people back doing it to basically carry the queue timers for everyone else.


I don't think this is this case, dps queue times are actually insanely short, and queuing up for all 4/5 wings at once will get you them back to back quite easily.
10/21/2015 11:53 AMPosted by Woopee
10/21/2015 11:51 AMPosted by Raggnor
If your not in a top 100 guild at least, your NOT a competitive raider. Your wasting your time if you believe you are.

Do you not understand that there can be competition within servers that has nothing to do with ranking overall?

10/21/2015 11:51 AMPosted by Raggnor
Note to Blizzard: Catering to this Extreme segment of the community is a mistake and will upset the majority of your player base in doing so.

How is putting valor in normal+ catering to "this extreme segment" when it ALREADY DROPS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE?


I understand that there can be competition within servers sure. Hey! Do you understand that Bobby Bodashing and Trina Tacofoot compete hardcore daily on how quickly they can clear Black Temple?

That example has every bit as much validity as yours and both are meaningless to everyone but those that are doing it. Sooooo, Should Black Temple drop Valor ? I mean where do you make the distinction, you could have competitive LFR groups, competitive dungeon groups and so on. You could be competing for 2nd to last place in your server group and still call it competitive.

Regarding the reasoning for Valor not dropping in Normal+ I already addressed in my original post.

Keep in mind, you don't need Valor at all.

The content has been cleared without any valor whatsoever.
10/21/2015 12:22 PMPosted by Zaino
10/21/2015 12:16 PMPosted by Ningjinq
2. LFR participation has dipped too low and need to get people back doing it to basically carry the queue timers for everyone else.


when you lose half the paying subscribers in less than a year participation for anything is going to be low


And forcing raiders to do LFR for valor - will lead to a lot of toxicness. Raiders do not want to deal with what LFR offers.
10/21/2015 12:08 PMPosted by Felroar
This post makes zero sense. I didn't ask for Valor to be handed to me, or that I was entitled to it. I want to get Valor when I kill Mythic bosses. That's all I want. The amount of effort required to do this is obviously much more than doing LFR, so I have no idea how what I'm asking for constitutes entitlement or "dumbing down".


10/21/2015 11:59 AMPosted by Xaleria
It's entitlement to expect to be able to get valor from all raid difficulties (which it always has)? If it didn't drop in LFR you'd be right. As is, you're dead wrong.


It's entitlement to expect that you get the rewards you want from this game in the manner which you personally deem most desirable, easiest or most convenient to your own play style.

I'll tell you the same thing so many were saying about Moose Gate. You want the rewards? You do the content that Blizzard has tied them to. Nobody said you have to like it. Your raid leader doesn't like it that you don't run LFR to max your valor every week? Make your own raid. Its never been easier, and even Mythic will be cross-realm.

You are free to disagree with me but that does not make me wrong.


The "dumbing down" statement was applicable to the paragraph it was contained in, which was about the removal or nerfing into the ground of other, non-raiding content in this game for the convenience of raiders.
10/21/2015 12:08 PMPosted by Arielangel
Why did they add it to LFR? because they naively believe most people will upgrade to try normal+ (LOL), and perhaps to give those stubborn casuals that stick to LFR and Tanaan something else to do.

How does that change if valor is added to normal+? Oh, it doesn't.

10/21/2015 12:08 PMPosted by Arielangel
More than one poster from your ilk are using the "if it doesn´t drop on MY current raid difficulty it shouldn´t drop on any of them"

You're generalizing, shocker. It SHOULD drop in normal+ if it drops in LFR. You can't even attempt to argue against that.

I love how you boycott your : "I´m a nice player that only insults when insulted" argument on a consistent basis.

And I'm still waiting for you to quote my posts about hating LFR. Since you just *love* to make things up to suit your agenda.

10/21/2015 12:22 PMPosted by Raggnor
Regarding the reasoning for Valor not dropping in Normal+ I already addressed in my original post.

Keep in mind, you don't need Valor at all.

The content has been cleared without any valor whatsoever.

And what is that reason? You want geared people carrying in LFR. That is the only reason I've seen. And it's an absolutely terrible one.

NOBODY "needs" valor. But we're still getting it, and why the hell should LFR players get it for their "normal activities" but raiders shouldn't? Seriously. Come on. Why are you opposed to valor dropping in raids?
10/21/2015 12:08 PMPosted by Arielangel
It´s an anti-LFR argument because you guys are -as always- paiting all the "negative" on the fact LFR will drop valor, and using the overdone "I´ll be FORCED to run LFR!!".
The new Valor system does not "force" me to run LFR, but it gives me a very strong incentive to do something I don't want to do.
10/21/2015 11:57 AMPosted by Ningjinq
10/21/2015 11:51 AMPosted by Raggnor
...

God, I hope they don't discuss it. Seriously, why would you cater to such a small segment of the community? Competitive raiding... *Shakes head*.

If your not in a top 100 guild at least, your NOT a competitive raider. Your wasting your time if you believe you are.

Competitive raiders are numbered at somewhere around 2,500 - 2800 of the player base.

Note to Blizzard: Catering to this Extreme segment of the community is a mistake and will upset the majority of your player base in doing so.

I truly believe raiding is an important part of the game, but it's obviously way to important to a very very few people.


Do you not understand that it takes 20-25 weeks to get everyone their Archimonde mount? That is a long time. Its a race to get there to ensure your reward.


Which has what to do with Valor?
All this crying about progression in the last six months of an expansion makes me lol.
10/21/2015 12:28 PMPosted by Xaleria
All this crying about progression in the last six months of an expansion makes me lol.

All these idiots who oppose valor dropping in normal+ for no reason at all make me mad.

10/21/2015 12:22 PMPosted by Avabelle
And forcing raiders to do LFR for valor - will lead to a lot of toxicness. Raiders do not want to deal with what LFR offers.

Right? People have complained that it's "the raiders" who create the unpleasant atmosphere in LFR. Now those same people are supporting a system that will put more unhappy raiders in there. Brilliant.
10/21/2015 12:22 PMPosted by Raggnor
I understand that there can be competition within servers sure. Hey! Do you understand that Bobby Bodashing and Trina Tacofoot compete hardcore daily on how quickly they can clear Black Temple?


Are you trolling?
Are you really comparing content I can solo at level 71, to content that players are still actively progressing on across every server.

Actually, I'm not sure why I'm even responding to someone who hasn't played since MoP.
10/21/2015 12:26 PMPosted by Raggnor
10/21/2015 11:57 AMPosted by Ningjinq
...

Do you not understand that it takes 20-25 weeks to get everyone their Archimonde mount? That is a long time. Its a race to get there to ensure your reward.


Which has what to do with Valor?


To be fair 1500 -2000vp to trinkets and a weapon makes a significant difference because most of your player power comes from these slots. Look at the average dps of a player with a 720 weapon vs a 730 alone.
10/20/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Vivec
https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status/656577173902372864

There's no hard weekly cap this time around, but at some point you will run out of Valor-awarding activities.


If you are a raider you will be doing Heroic dungeons daily, the weekly quests for Valor, all of the LFR wings weekly, and the Mythic dungeons weekly.

Is this what you wanted? Will your guild expect you to do all of this? Do you like this? I play a lot, but I dread even thinking about doing all of this just to stay competitive with my raid group.


I dont really understand the question op? This is for casuals more than raiders, yeah they will use it, but the way to get vp is geared toward non raiders, not raiders.

Oh and to answer your question , no , but each raid leader is different. I will do them because I want to upgrade.And raiders will not have a hard time with blowing through dungeons
Any particular reason daily CM can't return and be an alternative source for valor instead of heroics (or in addition to heroics)? I'd much rather do a quick gold CM than que up for a heroic and faceroll through it without talking to anyone in the group.

Also +1 to adding valor to normal+ raids. I do not want to run LFR every week.
A hard cap on earning Valor (or any currency) essentially sets a weekly benchmark, and falling short of that benchmark leaves you feeling like you've left something on the table. If we artificially cap earning at 1000/week, then we're saying it takes ~8 weeks to fully upgrade your gear, assuming "maximum" effort each week. If you miss a week, then you're a week "behind." If you're busy, or sick, or just don't feel like it, and you fall a bit short of the cap one week, then you are delaying completion by precisely that amount. The existence of the cap makes the whole thing feel more mandatory in a sense, with motivation level then plummeting the moment you hit that weekly cap. Despite all these reasons, sometimes we do need caps as a pacing mechanism, particularly early in an expansion or where the impact on player power is massive (e.g. buying Conquest gear in a new arena season).

Without a cap, there's an inherent diminishing return curve at play. You can start off doing the most efficient and engaging activities first, until you've exhausted those, leaving you with activities that are progressively less efficient and/or less suited to your playstyle preferences, combined with the fact that you also inherently are exhausting your free time as you go, with your remaining time presumably becoming more valuable as it dwindles. At some point, you generally hit a threshold where the reward for the next incremental activity no longer seems worth the time investment required, and you're done for the week. For many people, that threshold will be reached at lower than 1000 VP per week, and their experience is no different whether or not there's a cap. For others, that threshold will be reached at a point above 1000 VP, and the lack of a cap gives them the freedom to decide when they're done rather than having it dictated to them. Some will benefit from the fact that they're allowed to convert a weekend of free time into a bunch of Valor to make up for that week when they were busy or traveling, coming out even or ahead rather than being permanently "behind" due to a cap.

(The particular nature of Valor upgrades also adds another element of diminishing returns - your first 2k Valor will likely go into your weapons and trinkets. After that, every additional point of Valor you earn is progressively less impactful as you work your way down from chest/helm, to gloves, to bracers.)

In this case, we opted for the design that offers more freedom to select the sources of Valor that most suit your preferred playstyle, goals, and available time. If you're into Mythic dungeons, then Mythic dungeons are going to be by far the most lucrative source of Valor, and should let you cover your needs quickly. But for players who don't want to run Mythic dungeons, queued alternatives (such as Heroics and Raid Finder) allow for a way to still earn Valor.

I understand the sense of obligation to maximize performance in a competitive raid environment, but the game asks competitive raiders to make those choices constantly: do you craft every upgrade at the first opportunity, use the best gems in items you might replace soon, use the best food or Augment Runes on every pull, keep running lower difficulties on the off-chance of a Warforged/socketed perfect drop that could be an upgrade, keep up with multiple specs or alts to allow you to optimize for specific encounters, and so forth?

Virtually everyone draws a line somehow and compromises in most of these areas, making a judgment about the point at which further expense (whether of gold, or time, or effort) is no longer worth the benefit. This system presents another one of those choices. The need to "save players from themselves" is a familiar refrain - but past experience has shown that people are better at managing their schedules and gameplay choices than many of the comments in this thread would suggest.
10/21/2015 12:32 PMPosted by Kydoìme
This is for casuals more than raiders

How? The people who will get the most use out of valor are raiders. World content doesn't need to be nerfed (which is what valor is for). LFR doesn't need to to be nerfed. A main purpose of valor is to soft nerf HFC. And yet raiding is the only PvE activity that isn't going to reward any valor.

10/21/2015 12:33 PMPosted by Watcher
In this case, we opted for the design that offers more freedom to select the sources of Valor that most suit your preferred playstyle, goals, and available time.

Then why doesn't it drop in raids...

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