[Suggestion] Revised for VoteKick changes

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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LFG - Looking for Group, and old feature that allowed you to search who was wanting to do dungeons, talk to them and then personally invite them.
RDF - Random Dungeon Finder, the current system that shoves strangers together without understanding differences in play style and goals.

In Summary;

    When people with very different goals are forced to try to complete a dungeon together, it causes conflict. Conflict causes the very negative behavior we are seeing in the RDF. Almost every thread in this forum talking about a negative experience boils down to people wanting different things out of a dungeon.

    People tend to live up to expectations, whether they be positive or negative. Give us back the option to be responsible and mature party leaders and we will rise to the challenge. Not everyone wants to lead a group, many would prefer not to. The random dungeon finder does not recognize this. Leadership tools should only be given to those that have earned it, not to those that would abuse it.

    A computer putting together a group will never be as good as a human being. When you can just get a computer to shove you in a group, you are going to get people exploiting the system.

    Guilds and friends are a great resource to help put together a group, but this is usually not enough to put together a full group for new players, small guilds, low population servers, people that are online at weird times in the day, non max level characters and more.

    Fix/reinstate the LFG list system, combine it with the positive features of the RDF (for example a replacement member is ported to where you are), and make it cross server so that everyone can put together groups with the convenience features of the random dungeon finder, with the advantages of getting to talk to the person before you invite them.

    PuG queue times are long because Tanks, and to a lesser extent healers, are not PuGing. Tanks and healers are not PuGing because they are feeling abused. Right now the only way they have to avoid this abuse is to run guild groups only, since they have no way of controlling who is in a PuG. If you give us back the ability to choose who is in our PuG, you give us back shorter queue times overall.


There have been a lot of complaints about people having problems using the dungeon finder, and a lot of suggestions on how to fix it. I think people are forgetting a very important aspect of this problem; it is people’s actions that people are having issues with, not game mechanics. It is the community and the players, not Blizzard. However, I do believe that social engineering is possible, and that Blizzard does have the power to make a change for the better by enabling and encouraging the community.
Right before the current Random Dungeon Finder system came out, there was a system in place called Looking For Group. It showed a list of people queuing for specific dungeons, along with a personalized comment. You could whisper and talk to these players before deciding whether or not to invite them to your group. I thought this was better than the looking for group channel spam, and the automated random dungeon generator. It did not automatically shove you in a group with people you had never even spoken to before, but still allowed you to be out in the world doing dailies etc while the group is put together and did not force you to have trade chat turned on. It allowed you to talk to the actual person behind the character before inviting them to a group. People have been asking how to have a good PuGing experience. This is how; talk to the person you are going to group with first, long enough to know that they are looking for the same thing in a group that you are, and that you get along with them as a person. Some people want a fast run with everyone at max gear and spec. Some people want a fun experience above all else, and don’t mind a few wipes as long as they get a good giggle. Some people are trying to help train a new tank. In the current system all these play-styles are forced together, along with people that want the rewards of team play without putting any effort towards being part of a team. This of course creates conflict.

EDIT: We now have a blue post from Bashiok explaining and agreeing with this very well!

I think maybe the idea of using a tool to accomplish something as fast as possible is likely inseparable from the mentality one has while using it.

Meaning, and this is my personal opinion, I'm pushing one button to go do other things while this tool does everything for me because it's the most efficient means to do so. I don't use this tool to then get into a situation where my mindset changes from most efficient means to do so, to ok let's all slow down, work together, overcome the odds, triumph, and bond in the face of adversity.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2030063023?page=11#203
I and many others ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2030105440 for example) believe that the current system is exacerbating the problem, and that there is one game mechanic in particular that is causing a problem; the vote to kick system.

One problem with the vote to kick system is that it makes people being removed from a group seem trivial to those kicking, and often very unfair and unexplained to those being kicked. New players often get kicked by PuGs without any explanation as to why as soon as the timer is up, because it is currently easier to replace them than to teach them anything. All they have to do to get a new player is click a button and wait, usually carrying on with the dungeon like nothing happened in the meantime. This helps create an environment in which new players are scared to ask for help, and can get to 85 without ever having anything explained to them. Of course, they are now blamed for being stupid and a “n00b” because no one could get that far without knowing that unless they were stupid... right?

Levelling up an alt I have run into many really great new players that just need some terms, skills or actions explained to them. However, often when I take the time to explain these things to them, especially if the new player is the tank, the other members of the group will usually start yelling, “whatever, this is just a low level dungeon, just shut up and pull,” and then try to kick the new player or me. Sometimes these players listen when I explain that this is when people learn, often they do not.

It used to be that the only person with the power to remove someone from a group was someone who had shown enough maturity, patience, leadership and communication skills to put forth the time and effort to personally create a group. In the random dungeon finder, this testing ground for leadership does not exist, and all someone needs to do to remove someone from a group is convince the rest of the group to follow their decision. This is where the problem of the majority lies. Sadly, the majority of players I run into only care about a fast group. They will shortsightedly vote yes to any kick initiated because it is easier to remove one side of any disagreement than it is to try and resolve the issue, whether the issue was important and would prevent them from completing the dungeon or not.

Just take a look at this thread (especially this post) for a scary amount of stories of people blindly clicking yes without even reading the name of who they are kicking;
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1922563337?page=4#67

I propose that we enable leaders who have proven themselves by creating good groups to lead again by giving them back the uninvite feature, no strings attached. There are always people who will abuse any system put in place, especially when it involves power. However an abusive leader is very easily dealt with when you can invite cross realm; disband, and reform without the abusive “leader.” You may also as a group politely inform them that you will not be continuing the group with them in the party, and that they can choose to leave or have the group disband. Many people will choose to leave and save you the trouble.

Of course, when you put together a group of people that you like grouping with in the first place, there is very rarely a need to remove someone from a group at all. These restrictions on the vote to kick system become completely unnecessary when you like the people you are grouped with, and wish to continue being grouped with them.

It has been suggested that one way to make sure that the power ended up in the right hands in the first place would be a ratings feature; you would need a certain rating in order to be group leader, or in a random dungeon the person with the highest rating would get to be leader. I am concerned that this feature would be abused. If the option to either downrate, or rate on a scale is given, people will give low ratings for bad reasons. If the only option given is for positive ratings, the players that suffer are the new players, as they are now grouped with the bad/lazy players who don't want to help them get any better.
If Blizzard re-instated the list of players who are LFG and linked it across the battlegroup rather than just the server it would allow people to have more choice and control over their gaming experience, and who they played with, while still allowing the lower population servers to form groups in a timely manner. Integrate this system with the successes of the random dungeon finder like porting a replacement member directly to where the group is in the instance, and I believe this would give us back the tools we need to make PuGs fun again. Because this system could potentially find a lot of people, some filtering options would be very helpful to narrow your search down, for example searching your server only.

The ability to friend people cross server, or a "Like" button indicating that you personally wish to group with this person again could be advantageous, even in the RDF if the system was told to prioritize grouping with these people. In LFG it would highlight their name to bring your attention to them, and you would very quickly have a large list of people that you know you enjoy grouping with.

Some people would still want the option for an automated queue, but like Bashiok has stated (link above) this is a very specific mentality leading to an equally specific play style, so I suggest some changes in order to encourage the right people to use each system. This would be just like Blizzard’s separation of twinks and non-twinks in PVP by turning off exp gain; two very different ways of playing the same content are no longer forced to bump heads;

When you open up the dungeon finder tool, it would show a similar interface to what we see when we open up our talent trees for the first time; two panels, each explaining the advantages and disadvantages of each system, and what the differences in the features available to you. (For example the leader having uninvite in LFG, and the vote to kick system in RDF.) On the LFG side there could be some quick tips on how to successfully put together your own group. On the RDF side it could have some tips on etiquette and how to successfully group with strangers. You could then select which tool you wish to use, and can switch back and forth just like you do with the "view summaries" button in the talent trees window.

For the RDF add a report AFK button. This should not count towards the vote to kick count of a group.

Thank you if you read all of this! I know it is a lot to get through but I hope my ideas can make this game a better place.
I believe some of what you say has merit, but there is probably more than doesn't. Your entire post is based around the idea that all bad players are new and want to learn. That is nowhere near true. Often a lot are bad players who don't care how to improve, and back talk when you try to give them constructive feedback. Some situations I have had recently are..

in BRC, warrior gets flattened on boss 1 because he didn't ask how to do the boss. I told him, "you needed to run out of that", he said OH. we didn't wipe and he was doing decent (not great, but around 7k dps), so I didn't kick him. I get to boss 2, and ask if he did this place on heroic before. He says "no", I think... hey I wonder... "Have you ever done this on regular?"... "No, are you going to kick me?". So right there, that type of player has the potential to be ok, but felt it was his right to skip all regular content because he thought himself too good to bother doing it. I in fact didn't kick him, but I also marginalized him and didn't ask him to do anything mechanic wise. I did explain all the fights to him tho. In the end he wasn't a huge detriment so I let it go.

In HoO two nights ago, I had a shaman who was doing about 6.5k dps, not much less, but missed some CC's, and when I suggested they use searing totem instead of flametongue as elemental they said something stupid like he wasn't specced for it and refused suggestions. So i kicked him. He was a bit more annoying that I am writing about, it was kinda the last straw.

So there are a few different types of players, don't assume all are eager to learn and want to improve. Some just want to faceroll and expect loot.

That being said, I do agree there should be a more flexible finder. I also like the idea of seeing how many bosses are dead before entering if it's in progress, or REQUEUE if you don't want in. Problem with that tho is those groups that are waiting for people might never fill up... SO here is a fix for that. Taken right out of the pvp finder... "Call for support" (instead of call for arms). If someone enters a partially killed instance, they should get a small bonus for taking the risk. This shouldnt be much, perhaps a 10% bonus in points, and it should be given right away so if the group is half broken by the time the player gets in, he still gets a consolation prize.

Perhaps there should be two dungeon finders. The one we have now, and the old one that was server only. It would actually benefit everyone to do this as I would personally rather play with people on my own server (and typically you don't kick same server players).
"Vote to Kick" creates one set of problems with jerks. Not having "Vote to Kick" creates a different set of problems with jerks. But the problem is "jerks," not "how you design Vote to Kick."

The notion that Blizzard can fix jerks with coding is, I think, unrealistic. Likewise, the notion that any kind of "reporting" system that involves a Blizzard employee is unrealistic in a game of this size.

The best suggestion I've seen is an option to choose to queue only with players on your server - though that no doubt takes us back to the days where low-pop servers = death.

Other than that, people need to realize that pushing the "please put me with total strangers" button isn't anything more than that - stuffing you in a group of total strangers, without regard to their skill or attitude.

The biggest problem with LFD for the moment is people pretending it should be doing something that it is in no way capable - or intended - to do.
Khaladon;

Sadly I have run far too many PuGs in my WoW life to know that this is not true; most players I run into don't care, don't listen, and are downright hostile when you politely suggest something that would help them improve. What I am suggesting, is that we separate out those that want to learn and those that don't with the LFG list and the random dungeon finder.

The tank you ran into sounds very similar to a situation I ran into. It was a bear tank in Zul'Farak, and he was doing horribly. By the sheer lack of movement, I could tell he was either very new, or very stoned/drunk. I started talking to him, and it turns out he is new. Me and my husband, who happened to be playing a hunter attempted to teach him how to Line of Sight pull among other things, but he kept responding with, "Ok I got it," and continuing to play badly. In the end, he left the group of his own accord after we suggested he look up some TankSpot videos.

His entire behavior screamed of someone scared of being yelled at and or kicked for being new, so he acted very defensively, even when offered help. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure, but this sounds like the same thing with your tank. He may have never had someone explain to him that regular content was important. New players are so used to being bashed on that the defensive barrier around them is so big they don't know what to do when actually offered help. I would like to remove the people that are bashing on them. Call me an optimist if you will. :)

I like your suggestions, and if you re-read my last post you will see that I was suggesting we have two dungeon finders; one for intelligent people to hand make a list and be able to choose to play with their server, and one for people to push and try to faceroll.
Waste;

I agree that it is people that are the root problem, however I believe that the vote to kick system is making the situation worse by enabling jerks, and disabling mature players. I am not expecting a system to fix anything, but I do expect Blizzard to remove a system that is exacerbating a problem.

I also agree that asking a computer to do the work for you is asking for trouble. This is why I would like the old system of a LFG list where you could choose which server to play with, and talk to the people before inviting them. All Blizzard would need to do is to make this list cross server, so that like you said, the lower population servers do not suffer.
Right before the current dungeon finder system came out, there was a system in place that I thought was a happy medium between the looking for group channel, and the automated PuG system. It showed a list of people queuing for dungeons, along with a personalized comment. It did not automatically shove you in a group with people you had never even spoken to before. It allowed you to talk to the actual person behind the character before inviting them to a group. People have been asking how to have a good PuGing experience. This is how; talk to the person you are going to group with first, long enough to know that they are looking for the same thing in a group that you are, and that you get along with them as a person. Some people want a fast run with everyone at max gear and spec. Some people want a fun experience above all else, and don’t mind a few wipes as long as they get a good giggle. Some people are trying to help train a new tank. In the current system all these play-styles are forced together, along with people that want the rewards of team play without putting any effort towards being part of a team.


Yea, it's called the Raid Browser and it's broken!

I've been trying to get it to work, but unfortunately it says there are no raids for my level, and they also removed the Dungeons and Group Quest options from it. You can find the tool in your Social tab, Raid tab and it's in the corner on that tab.

The functionality you are asking to be restored would alleviate a lot of the social problems WoW faces, by giving folks a tool to build server communities. Giving a method for first contact, rather than turning trade on. Lets face it, WoW doesn't have gameplay problems, it has Community and Social problems.

Having a tool to form on server groups, for dungeons, raids, group quests, would be great.
LFD isn't going away. The horse is already out of the barn on that front and, while it may be a flawed tool, many people find it useful (they just wish it was more magical than it is capable of being).

If you don't like the tool, don't use it (I rarely do, and only in limited circumstances where it won't bite me in the butt). But I don't think most of the suggestions for "fixing" it are practicable or meaningful.

It is what it is. It's actually really good, if you consider the problem it was originally meant to address. The biggest issue is that people want it to be something totally unrealistic - a sort of "I WIN THE INSTANCE" button that it became briefly at the end of Lich King (not counting HoR and Occulus, even then).

It's a people problem, not a game problem.

I agree with a lot of the OP's points. However, it is something that is as much a problem with players as the system. Khaladon is right, though. A lot of bad players don't want to learn. They spent too much time playing in WotLK when it didn't matter if you didn't move out of the fire, because the fire was more like a warm bubble bath. As my friend tells me on a daily basis running heroics, "you can't convince someone they're bad over the Internet."

The players that wanted to learn and get better already have. The first week and a half of heroics you had to ask every time who had or had not been in the dungeon on heroic yet, because most people hadn't. You had to explain each fight quickly to do it. Those people know the fights now. The people that are left now that don't know the fights don't usually want to know. But, you are correct that many players who don't know and want to are afraid to ask. This is why I usually begin each heroic by asking, "does anyone NOT know this heroic? It's okay if you don't, I'll give you the quick explanation at each fight." Most players I get grouped with are okay with this "quick explanation" business, because most fights are as simple as "if it's on the ground and you didn't put it there, don't stand in it" and "kill the adds" and "stack on the <player>."

In your suggestion, I would add a "like"/"dislike" system for being a group leader that other players can click as they're going through the dungeon, then when the queue algorithm selects its members, of all the people queued in the group to be a leader, it should pick the one with the highest like/dislike score.

I also firmly agree with the addition of an option to requeue if you get a partial dungeon and the "call for support" option Khaladon suggested. A lot of times if you're running heroics, ESPECIALLY at this point in the expansion, you're only needing specific bosses in instances, and not always the last ones. Even people's first and sometimes second alts are at this point, and it would be nice to be able to look at the queue and say, "Gee, this would lock me for Deadmines, and I really need that hammer off of Foe Reaper, but he's already dead. I think I'll just take the next queue rather than waste my attempt on that dungeon today."
Vrelkyn;

Well said!
I know that the tool is still there but broken, but it is so well hidden that many people don't even know that it exists, let alone how to get to it!
Waste;

If by LFD you mean the random dungeon finder, then yes I agree. That is why I suggest keeping it but also bringing back the LFG list system, so that people have the tools enabling them to make a choice without being forced to spam trade chat.

I would love to never have to use it again, but in reality there are occasions when I need to, especially while levelling an alt. Even at max level, a lot of the time our guild needs to find a 5th member, and it would be great to have contact with the person before inviting them, instead of playing russian roulette with the random dungeon finder, and finding one bad dps after another.

It is most definitely a people problem, however Blizzard has taken away a lot of the tools that people would find very very helpful in enabling them to take charge and fix the problem themselves.

The people that want an "I WIN" button will continue to bash their heads against the random PuG generator, while the people that are intelligent will be able to use the LFG list system to their advantage if this is put into place. That is why I suggest keeping both systems in place, in order to help separate out the two groups of people.
Kazistrasza;

Cute name! :) You remind me of Chromie.

Don't even get me started on the horribleness of wrath players, hehe. I totally agree.

However, be aware that there are still new players, or players that don't get a lot of time to play so havn't hit 85 yet. I for one have actually changed servers, and started a level one character after cataclysm came out. When I get to 85 I will do my research and be doing largely guild runs, but I will still need a quick explanation on some boss fights.

A lot of people have suggested the like/dislike feature, however as someone that has experienced a lot of dislike for no good reason, I can see this being abused. For example, as a tank I ask the dps to please target what I am. I instantly get 4 replies of hostility, abuse, swearing, name calling, the whole nine yards for asking them to do what the dps should already be doing. In this situation I would be getting 4 downrates.

I could see it possibly working if you could ONLY uprate someone, because people are far less likely to uprate someone they don't believe is actually good. The problem with this is that potentially great players who are new would get a lower rating than an old account who is mediocre. The system would also have to be account wide rather than character based. If Blizzard could take this system and figure out how to make this work in practicality I would love it. :)

I like your idea of the specific bosses being listed!
I cant see removing vote kick as a viable option unless you limit the pug to same realm. However one of the biggest issues with vote kick imo is the kicked never gets to see the reason why, granted many kick screens I see coming up asking for my vote are filled with 'asjkdfoaisdfasdjkfn' but yeah, its still an issue for both the person doing the determination to kick and the kicked party.

So if we dont limit the pugs to same realm we are left with how to deal more effectively with what we have, a random group of strangers being matched to an instance instead of each other. The drag with this is people who are so done with the gear and just want their vp get matched up with folks that have never stepped foot in the normal version and just reached that magical 329 40 mins ago! This is not fair to either person, one needs gear and the other needs their time back. What you end up with is resentment and unsocial behavior, people get carried they dont learn, people do the carrying and they dont come back. Lose lose situation here and you have no accountability, because hey I am never gonna see you again anyway (maybe). Tanks/healers stop taking pugs eventually and queue times just get longer.

So imo unless you can limit to your realm a no vote kicking option is out but a longer deserter debuff is in (under a certain time threshold)! I understand being in an instance and after the 3rd hour ont he first boss saying ya know I think its time to call it, I really shouldnt be penalized for this, no one should.

I would like to see the kicked party sees a reason once removed from group, its not too terribly hard to create a drop down list that you are required to pick from. (disruptive, lacks experience, offline, requested etc) This also makes a traceable statistic for various uses, and should be a required selection for each person choosing to vote. This might curb some of the blind yes clicks.

I still think the obvious and easiest solution is to match the player to the player, not to the instance. Queue for any instance you want at anytime and you will always be matched with the appropriate player to your level (whether by appropriate lvl boss kills or equipped gear), not the instance level (thus allowing you the option to run older stuff too!) This will not stop people from being jerks, limiting it to your own realm might help in that regard so a toggle there would be supreme! (/ignore cross-realm)

my 15 cents.
I'd settle for cross-realm friends listing, though I have a bad feeling technology doesn't support that.

I do think an intelligent 'fix' for LFD is offering more optional tools for pre-screening. In my mind, that seems like it would be limited to your server, but I confess I don't know what the technical limitations are.

I like your approach of trying to think about what could be added to allow for more player interaction. It's a refreshing change from people who think LFD can be solved with a button or a Blizzard rating system. I think the more we can get Blizzard to give us player-based solutions, the better a chance we'll have at making this tool more effective.
Advena;

Good to see you in here, I have enjoyed reading your posts in some of the other threads. :)

I totally agree with the vote to kick needing to have a reason. Many people are just blindly clicking yes and going along with the majority without even thinking about it. This is one of my arguments for removing it entirely however; there are more sheep than shepherds, and the vote to kick relies on the sheep. I want to see the responsible removal of jerks from groups in the hands of actual leaders again, Kazistrasza in this thread has suggested some form of approval rating system which might be an idea.

Again, I agree that the random matching of strangers is a bad idea, but I disagree that it needs to be same server. If we can get to talk to the person before inviting them, it doesn't necessarily need to be on the same server because we have already established a common goal and the basis for relationship/trust. I would like to see cross realm friends lists, and I would hope that people getting to manually put together a group would add back in some of the accountability into all of this.

Perhaps a rating system here would also encourage good behavior in that a dps with a higher rating would be more likely to be quickly invited into a group than someone with a low one. Perhaps this would need to be a rating divided by time played though, so that people with a lot of time don't have an advantage over new and casual players.

Sadly I don't think that buffs and debuffs are the way to go at all. Unless you are held personally accountable for what you are doing by another human person, you can always just AFK for the next 40mins while your deserter debuff wears off, and it's no skin off your back. However, if a real person tells you that no they are not going to group with you, and your queue time just got even longer, that is a real incentive to change.

Ideally the person being kicked already knows why before they are kicked. If not, this is an issue of lack of communication between players, not a broken system. However, if they have to keep the vote to kick system I agree that it would be nice for those players who get kicked and have no clue why.

Just give us players the tools to personally find the other players that are right for us to group with! What will stop people from being jerks is finding themselves very quickly ostracized by enough people that they can no longer continue acting the way they were.
Waste;

The game currently doesn't allow cross server friends or invites, but it does allow cross server ignores, so the technology is very very close. It wouldn't be too hard to change the coding to allow this.

Players are the problem, so players are the solution. :) We just need the tools to be enabled to do the right thing.
Zhyla - Ditto :)

My only real fear of losing the vote kick button is people who altf4 quit or get d/c'd for an indefinite time period. I dont mind waiting a few minutes but if I am held hostage by an offliner w/o recourse...just trying to think of any possible downside of losing the ability to kick. One could say after x minutes person who is offline gets auto booted, but that doesnt work well for non pugs. Although holding a fake tank queuer hostage in reverse for selling his queue and altf4'ing out has its hilarity value. XD

I got an idea while reading some of the posts in this thread. Please let me know what you think. Have a system integrated into the game that keeps records of, for example, times stood in fire in the past week (past week or two for room for "hey I have improved over the course of my time on wow") and also keep track of avg DPS (for dps classes), TPS (for tanks) , and HPS(for healers). It would also take into account your current gear level. Then it would give you some sort of skill ranking (in the background) based on the above. Then have a finder that groups you with similarly rated people. It would make it based on skill. This would make people who need to learn their classes better (like a 3k dps rogue with a 333ilvl equipped) have trouble getting through instances so they think "hey I need to learn my class more" and then they would hopefully spend more time at the dummies and reading up on their classes. It may not be the best idea but it certainly would be much better than what is implemented now.

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