RIP Fistweaving & Gladiator Stance

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11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.


Huh, I feel like crying.
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy. Trying to support two different playstyles within one spec restricts how much we can focus and bring out the strengths of either of them. We still love both of their concepts, however, and will look for opportunities to bring them back in the future.

Fistweaving in particular ended up being used mostly as a mana management tool to support Serpent Stance, instead of a damage/heal hybrid, which didn’t support its fantasy well. While we recognize that the initial goal for Mistweaver Monk -- combining a ranged healer with a melee healing style -- attracted some people to the class, quite a few things have changed since then. Most importantly, there’s been a huge shift away from smart heals in Warlords, which is continuing in Legion.

Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.


While I don't mind the removal of fistweaving (provided I can still have some DPs capabilities for world content), what was the reason behind gutting our ranged healing as well?

Soothing mist had a unique interaction with surging and enveloping mist that provided strong single target heals, while renewing mist and uplift provided decent HoT and blanket healing?

How is removing that and giving us "Standard Heal, Standard HoT, AoE Heal" in anyway supporting the 'unique array of healing told' you claim we have received? The only unique thing about any of these is that they're a nice teal instead of gold or green.
Shame to hear about gladiator spec. I think it would serve well as a 4th spec for warriors and paladins alike (I always felt the spec belonged more to paladins and call it crusader but alas)
11/11/2015 03:10 PMPosted by Angelbarbie
THIS so much... I really hope Holy Priest DPS will be a real thing, but I am afraid it won't be. I too do not want to be forced into Shadow for DPS for yet another expansion. Can we get some confirmation that the Holy Artifact weapon will have skills to boost DPS, not just healing?


It's just that both the holy artifact description and the holy spec description mention smiting enemies and bringing sacred justice.

None of the other healer descriptions have this in them.

By descriptions I mean the fantasy/lore part, not the mechanics part. Obvious in the discipline mechanics part it mentions doing damage, but in the fantasy part it doesn't.

Holy priest DPS would be great fun. We have no other holy casters and it'd be significantly different from shadow priests. Plus ret paladins are losing most of their ranged spells, so there's no overlap there. And this is the demon invasion, time to smite those demons. Should be easy to fit it in with the spec fantasy, but I guess spec fantasy isn't really what they're going for.

My fantasy of a holy priest is being able to heal or smite stuff. Not just smite stuff because healing is boring.
11/11/2015 03:14 PMPosted by Protege
Druids have 4 specs, is it too much to ask maybe some other classes can have 4 specs?


Druids fill 4 roles though.

Arguing for Warriors to have 4 specs across 2 roles is an inaccurate comparison.

11/11/2015 03:13 PMPosted by Denona
Why not make glad its own 4th spec? Like what you guys did with feral in MoP


See above.

People who throw the term "lazy" around as accusations tend not to understand the concepts of priorities and opportunity cost.


But what about peoples fantasies? Blizzard is removing a sword and board dps spec because they find it 'hard' to balance within protection. So why not make it a 4th spec? Its all about the fantasy man, and that is what blizzard is pushing with legion
...

I disagree with literally everything you said. WoD has it's problems, sure, but I'm still enjoying it (not as much as other expansion though). Everything I have seen for Legion has sounded amazing. Most of the class changes sound great...some I don't care for because I have no plan on playing that class but still...Hunter and Monk are looking great to me. I liked Warlock. Can't wait to see Rogue.

I for one like change and the stuff they have shown looks great.


We're gonna have to agree to disagree then. As a 12 year player of this game I've seen too many iterations. I think I'm finally burnt out. My main class (paladin) has seen a rework almost every 2-3 years.


Same.

WE JUST HAD A MAJOR ABILITY PRUNE. WHY THE HELL ARE WE DOING THIS AGAIN?
A reminder that Mistweaver monks can still be saved!

The future of the spec depends on the feedback you send out

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/19877347550
11/11/2015 03:15 PMPosted by Makasi
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

How will Mistweavers do damage in Legion? Are they going to punch enemies without the damage to healing, or will there be new caster-style damage spells? Personally, I'd hope for punching things.


I want to know this too. Mostly because I *LEVEL* as Mistweaver.

Could I use Wind Walker? Sure. I don't even spec for it though, don't care to see it / learn it / setup bars for it. I know Legion will just *give* us all the specs - but guess what? I still have 0 interest in doing Wind Walker.

Please don't make Monk the new Holy Pally in terms of DPS. Holy Pally is the ONLY healer, I cannot quest as(because they just can't kill anything) so I leveled my pally in dungeons(which you never give enough dungeons during leveling)
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy. Trying to support two different playstyles within one spec restricts how much we can focus and bring out the strengths of either of them. We still love both of their concepts, however, and will look for opportunities to bring them back in the future.

Fistweaving in particular ended up being used mostly as a mana management tool to support Serpent Stance, instead of a damage/heal hybrid, which didn’t support its fantasy well. While we recognize that the initial goal for Mistweaver Monk -- combining a ranged healer with a melee healing style -- attracted some people to the class, quite a few things have changed since then. Most importantly, there’s been a huge shift away from smart heals in Warlords, which is continuing in Legion.

Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.


I can understand fist weaving as monks could switch between the two in combat. But for gladiator? That makes no sense as you can always balance the stance itself, like you guys did when you buffed up prots core abilities but scaled down the physical damage buff while in glad stance, or in 6.2 when you added on the 50% mastery buff. I hope you guys enjoy taking something away from your player base just because you find it hard to balance when its not, if you actually listed to your community.

Also I wouldn't count glad as a subspec, as you couldn't change stances in combat, so it made it independent (to some degree) of protection, sure it shared abilities but that was it, every else was different
11/11/2015 03:18 PMPosted by Denona
But what about peoples fantasies? Blizzard is removing a sword and board dps spec because they find it 'hard' to balance within protection. So why not make it a 4th spec? Its all about the fantasy man, and that is what blizzard is pushing with legion


That's easy to answer...

priorities and opportunity cost.


^ Right there. When they separated Feral and Guardian into two specs, many of the Bear and Cat form abilities already existed. 90% of the work was done for them.

You want them to create an entirely new spec with unique abilities and talents that properly fits the intended fantasy (and don't forget new art animations) without feeling like a clone of another one all while doing the same for every single other spec in the game and you're implying that it's easy and that they're just being lazy because they don't want to do it?

Not to mention, on top of ALL of the things I just listed above, Warriors do not need a THIRD melee DPS spec.
i do not get all the tears. everyone that has played longer than three years knows by now what blizzard gives they will remove in the next patch or expansion??? so anything being removed from mm should come as no shock.blizzard has everyone like puppets on a string
11/11/2015 03:18 PMPosted by Denona
But what about peoples fantasies? Blizzard is removing a sword and board dps spec because they find it 'hard' to balance within protection. So why not make it a 4th spec? Its all about the fantasy man, and that is what blizzard is pushing with legion


That's easy to answer...

priorities and opportunity cost.


^ Right there. When they separated Feral and Guardian into two specs, many of the Bear and Cat form abilities already existed. 90% of the work was done for them.

You want them to create an entirely new spec with unique abilities and talents that properly fits the intended fantasy without feeling like a clone of another one all while doing the same for every single other spec in the game and you're implying that it's easy and that they're just being lazy because they don't want to do it?

Not to mention, on top of ALL of the things I just listed above, Warriors do not need a THIRD melee DPS spec.


All the work for glad being a 4th spec is already here as well. Not that hard to do

Just because you don't like gladiator doesn't mean the who do have to be punished. People enjoy playing as glad, so why remove it?

And its easy to balance around without hurting protection itself. Its called changing the buffs on the stance itself. Not that hard, hence why the lazy comment, cause thats all i'm getting
11/11/2015 02:51 PMPosted by Icarus
Fistweaving was one of my favorite aspects of monk. It was satisfying entering a heroic overgeared and healing through fist weaving. Seeing those high damage RSKs was awesome.

Doesn't this also seem counter-productive to their statement that players should be able to level as healers a bit easier?

I guess Blizzard is trying to "fix" class representation by making monk easier to play. One thing I loved about my monk is that I screwed up, I knew it. I can spam buttons with my shammy, DK, and spriest and do just fine, but monk, screwing up my damage rotation there was very punishing.


The thing about leveling and doing damage... Where is that now??? Fistweaving used to be used for that purpose as well and now you guys are removing it??? It's the most way to heal I have played with, along side Atonement.
Perhaps you guys need to stop making so many redundant classes, and start paying attention to the ones people invest time into. As cool as the Demon Hunter concept sounds, it just takes resources away from perfecting the classes people have spent a decade playing.

In my case, I spent an entire expansion getting outside of my comfort zone (I play spellcasters) because I liked the idea of bashing some damn orc with a shield, and now it's all gone? What a waste of time that was.

I can appreciate that you're trying to get back to class fantasy and all, but Gladiator was very popular. Wiping it out with no more reason than "we can't balance it" is lame. And you can't tell me there isn't any 'class fantasy' involving shield bashing to kill an opponent. And I don't mean tanking - I mean killing an opponent with a shield, as opposed to getting his attention to let the mage kill him.

I've learned (after recent events) that raising a hue and cry with Blizzard is pointless. You've definitely put a damper on my enthusiasm for Legion now. I think I will wait and see more before I decide to buy. My time is precious, and I won't waste $50 for an expansion that doesn't deliver the goods (again.)

Since Gladiator is leaving, no more point in playing my warrior anymore. I'll stick to paladins for my plate armor kicks.

"Wraak" is Dutch for revenge; guess I can change his name to "Bankier" and call it a day. Thanks, Blizzard.
11/11/2015 03:25 PMPosted by Alatareith
i do not get all the tears. everyone that has played longer than three years knows by now what blizzard gives they will remove in the next patch or expansion??? so anything being removed from mm should come as no shock.blizzard has everyone like puppets on a string


Fistweave is what made Mistweaver so popular you dingus.
11/11/2015 03:19 PMPosted by Sunday
WE JUST HAD A MAJOR ABILITY PRUNE. WHY THE HELL ARE WE DOING THIS AGAIN?


Seriously.

A lot of specs are in a good place right now. Many of them only needed very slight touching up, not huge mechanic overhauls. And those that did need larger changes, well many haven't been touched!

Hell, just as an example, Ret has played well for nearly the past two expansions. We've been in a good place for a while, very solid. While Arms, they were gutted at the start of WoD and have been that way the whole way through.

So why is it they're changing the former to be more like the latter? That makes no sense. Nevermind these overhauls that are just completely nonsensical, like MW.
11/11/2015 03:27 PMPosted by Denona
All the work for glad being a 4th spec is already here as well.


No it's not. All they did to make that "spec" was change one ability.

11/11/2015 03:27 PMPosted by Denona
Just because you don't like gladiator doesn't mean the who do have to be punished. People enjoy playing as glad, so why remove it?


I love the Gladiator's Resolve talent. If you were around during WoD beta, you would've seen me giving heavy amounts of feedback on all aspects of Prot Warrior, including that talent.

I'm just capable of knowing how to let things go when they don't work.
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.

The reason most players went with ranged heals was because fistweaving was poorly implemented and you guys never found a good solution. Instead of abandoning it, you should put more effort into making it the new playstyle.

You guys are making the wrong decision, and you're upsetting quite a few of us in the process.

Bring back fistweaving, dump the ranged heal gig that every other healer already has. You want unique? KUNG FU HEALING is unique. Just sayin'.
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy. Trying to support two different playstyles within one spec restricts how much we can focus and bring out the strengths of either of them. We still love both of their concepts, however, and will look for opportunities to bring them back in the future.

Fistweaving in particular ended up being used mostly as a mana management tool to support Serpent Stance, instead of a damage/heal hybrid, which didn’t support its fantasy well. While we recognize that the initial goal for Mistweaver Monk -- combining a ranged healer with a melee healing style -- attracted some people to the class, quite a few things have changed since then. Most importantly, there’s been a huge shift away from smart heals in Warlords, which is continuing in Legion.

Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.


So are we still at a point where we're repeating mistakes? Taking away things that make classes unique feeling has already proven to be a bad idea, and all I've heard so far about you guys pumping up the new expansion is you were going to fix it.

So far, in terms of the healing game, you've decided to remove the idea of pro-active healing from discipline and make them reactive healers(like every other spec in the game because balance is hard), and now healing monks have a very unique niche removed in being melee healers. You're not doing much to help alleviate concerns that you've learned from these past mistakes guys. :(
11/11/2015 02:49 PMPosted by Adelphie
Fantasy is just an excuse for more ability pruning. It has nothing to do with actually making specs unique.

Nailed it.

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