RIP Fistweaving & Gladiator Stance

General Discussion
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Wait, Gladiator is being removed?

C'mon Blizzard...it was a niche that noone else filled: Sword and Board DPS AND something that me (and many others) have been wanting since WoW Day 1.

Rather than remove it completely why not make it it's own spec? Druids have four specs, why can't Warriors?!
Hype train downgraded to hype trolley. May be pruned further. Fits the fantasy better.

They couldn't possibly just add a fourth spec. I mean, take the Gladiator thing for instance! A melee class with THREE dps specs? That would be so ridiculous. I was just talking about it the other day to my rogue friend...
11/11/2015 03:41 PMPosted by Eliek
Wait, Gladiator is being removed?

C'mon Blizzard...it was a niche that noone else filled: Sword and Board DPS AND something that me (and many others) have been wanting since WoW Day 1.

Rather than remove it completely why not make it it's own spec? Druids have four specs, why can't Warriors?!


It doesn't even need it's own spec, it was perfectly fine as it was. The only problem with it was Blizzard nerfed it excessively at the beginning of WoD.
I LOVE my monk and this is butchering her. I am mobile, I provide utility, and I'm an EXCELLENT healer. There are fights where I am fistweaving even during raiding. There are fights where I stay in melee to help with interrupts, since you are removing the fistweaving, you may as well remove Leg Sweep from Healers, and any useful melee utility. Oh wait.. you probably are...

So glad I needed to roll a paladin tank heals for my core group, at least you're giving me back melee there...

*headdesk*
11/11/2015 03:32 PMPosted by Denona
Considering they didn't even go into detail behind why glad stance is getting removed beyond 'its hard to balance cause we don't want to'


Uh... they did explain why they're removing it and it has nothing to do with balance.
I'll repost it for you:

11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy.


If you haven't noticed, Blizzard has been emphasizing classes for this expansion. Themes and unique playstyle are their priorities. Taking 1-2 abilities from a spec and changing them isn't creating a new spec. It's altering an existing one. If they made Gladiator a true 4th spec, they would have to do it right. This would mean completely new abilities, talent trees, animations, and THEN tuning. It's not worth their time, effort, or money.

It's got nothing to do with balancing it around Prot. That was never the problem. It's about the fact that Gladiator isn't actually a spec of its own and Shield Charge + Gladiator Stance was not sufficient enough to fulfill the idea that Glad should be. Even if it was... again... Warriors don't need 4 specs for 2 roles.

The whole Gladiator idea was great. I loved it. But at this point, all it's doing is taking up talent space.
Disc priests have always done that.

Six people play monks.

Please stop.
11/11/2015 03:35 PMPosted by Meia
11/11/2015 03:32 PMPosted by Thuli
...

There is a good reason for this. Pure fistweaving as it stands now will do less dps and less healing than a decent tank of the same ilvl. If the dps and healing was comparable to a tanks then it would be used more.


Which of course leads more fears to the idea that they want Discipline to go in that direction when they've proven in the past they're incapable of balancing such a thing.


Exactly. They can't have discipline doing strong damage or strong healing. but i doubt it will be as bad off as fist weaving currently is but it will probably still be below tanks in damage but above tanks in healing. which is where mw should be.
11/11/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Rune
I mean, take the Gladiator thing for instance! A melee class with THREE dps specs? That would be so ridiculous. I was just talking about it the other day to my rogue friend...


Some of us love to dps with a shield, is that so hard for you to understand?

Blizz said in the warrior preview that the main fantasy of a warrior is charging into battle with a sword and shield, something Gladiator fitted perfectly, now they are removing it without actually providing any REASONABLE details why. It just disgusts me that they used the 'hard to balance without affecting prot'. That is complete bull!@#$ as they can always work around the stance itself, like they did in 6.2 with the mastery buff when in glad stance.

Pure laziness is all i'm getting from blizzard for removing glad stance. Pure laziness
11/11/2015 03:43 PMPosted by Meistar
I LOVE my monk and this is butchering her. I am mobile, I provide utility, and I'm an EXCELLENT healer. There are fights where I am fistweaving even during raiding. There are fights where I stay in melee to help with interrupts, since you are removing the fistweaving, you may as well remove Leg Sweep from Healers, and any useful melee utility. Oh wait.. you probably are...

So glad I needed to roll a paladin tank heals for my core group, at least you're giving me back melee there...

*headdesk*


Mistweavers no longer count as melee for the purposes of boss mechanics in Legion, so yes, they are losing all of their melee skills.
11/11/2015 02:40 PMPosted by Solidllama
Edit: I have an 85 Monk when that was max level and this blog is making me consider leveling my Monk again (but Hunters seem cooler so not sure).


I think you mean 90. I'm pretty sure 85 was max level back in Cataclysm and monks weren't released until MoP, when 90 became the max.

Also, hunters are great but so are monks. Level one of each.
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore
Fistweaving (and Gladiator Stance) will not be joining us in Legion.

We love the fantasy that each of those “subspecs” promise, but leaving them as subspecs has proven to be problematic, making us unable to properly deliver on their fantasy. Trying to support two different playstyles within one spec restricts how much we can focus and bring out the strengths of either of them. We still love both of their concepts, however, and will look for opportunities to bring them back in the future.

Fistweaving in particular ended up being used mostly as a mana management tool to support Serpent Stance, instead of a damage/heal hybrid, which didn’t support its fantasy well. While we recognize that the initial goal for Mistweaver Monk -- combining a ranged healer with a melee healing style -- attracted some people to the class, quite a few things have changed since then. Most importantly, there’s been a huge shift away from smart heals in Warlords, which is continuing in Legion.

Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.


Lore feel free to recommend to your bosses that they sell the IP to a company that will cherish the game and all of it's history; not totally butcher it for all that it was worth. I am sure there are companies who will know what to do with the franchise and will take good care of it. Maybe you should have given gc more money, just saying. He is probably having uncontrollable hysterics this week.
11/11/2015 03:18 PMPosted by Adelphie
Holy priest DPS would be great fun. We have no other holy casters and it'd be significantly different from shadow priests. Plus ret paladins are losing most of their ranged spells, so there's no overlap there.


I totally agree; there is a major niche that needs to be filled, and Holy Priest DPS would be perfect to fill it. As has been pointed out above, it takes much work to make what would in effect be a "fourth spec". However, essentially all that work is already done for Holy DPS. Here are the few steps that would be needed (copied from my earlier post in the Priest forum):

(i) add Holy Nova to provide an AOE. According to a Dev tweet, this appears to be the plan. Please make it happen; I never understood why Nova was taken from Holy spec… it has “Holy” in its title! It should always be a base Holy spell. And I am not greedy, keep it for Disc too.
(ii) revise Mastery so that it boosts Holy DPS as well as healing. If this is not done, Mastery will remain a dead stat for Holy DPS. This has continued to be a great frustration for those of us who wish to DPS as Holy, especially with the removal of reforging.
(iii) tune the DPS spells so overall DPS is roughly equivalent to Shadow.
(iv) if there is concern that it would be too overpowered to have Holy with viable DPS AND healing simultaneously, I see straightforward mechanisms to prevent this. Chakra actually would have been a simple way to accomplish this. For example, it could have been revised into a combat-constant “stance” (like Gladiator) that can only be changed out of combat. And there would be only two choices- “DPS” and “heals”. When “DPS” is activated, Holy DPS damage would be boosted by X%, AND healing would be reduced by Y% (or, HPS could stay the same, and the mana costs of heal spells could be increased by some large % to allow brief healing that is not sustainable). In the “heals” stance, the opposite would happen.

And BAM! it is viable for DPS
11/11/2015 03:44 PMPosted by Mandrel
Disc priests have always done that.

Six people play monks.

Please stop.


I hope that the irony of a Prot/Ret paladin saying this is not lost on you.
11/11/2015 03:43 PMPosted by Protege
If you haven't noticed, Blizzard has been emphasizing classes for this expansion. Themes and unique playstyle are their priorities


No it isn't. It's just a guise to hide the ability pruning behind.

If unique themes and play styles were their concerns they wouldn't be giving all warlocks the same resource or pruning all of ret's ranged spells or killing a defining part of MW playstyle(It's been in their spec description since MoP FFS).

They aren't concerned about spec fantasy, they're pruning abilities and homogenizing specs so it's easier for them to balance.
11/11/2015 03:32 PMPosted by Thuli
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore

Fistweaving in particular ended up being used mostly as a mana management tool to support Serpent Stance, instead of a damage/heal hybrid, which didn’t support its fantasy well.


There is a good reason for this. Pure fistweaving as it stands now will do less dps and less healing than a decent tank of the same ilvl. If the dps and healing was comparable to a tanks then it would be used more.


You would be quite wrong. Feel free to go and actually look at log data. Plenty of logs of MW's doing more damage AND healing than tanks on the same logs.
11/11/2015 03:40 PMPosted by Danipatrick
The other thing about that is that Protection Warriors had no use for Battle Stance at all, so why Blizzard couldn't do that?

That's some pretty complex logic you're asking Blizz to understand, there.
11/11/2015 02:36 PMPosted by Lore

Mistweaver gameplay for most players was centered around their ranged healing spells, and our focus for the spec in 7.0 consists of reinforcing their unique array of healing tools and adding talents and artifact powers that support this style.


I'm sorry, but removing one of the core pieces of being a Mistweaver ranged healer, channneled healing, is in no way "reinforcing", and giving us casted heals, just like everyone else, does the exact opposite of making us "unique."

I like channel healing. There is now no class that supports my preferred playstyle, but oooh! I have 4 classes to choose from for casting-styled healing!!!
11/11/2015 03:42 PMPosted by Adelphie
11/11/2015 03:41 PMPosted by Eliek
Wait, Gladiator is being removed?

C'mon Blizzard...it was a niche that noone else filled: Sword and Board DPS AND something that me (and many others) have been wanting since WoW Day 1.

Rather than remove it completely why not make it it's own spec? Druids have four specs, why can't Warriors?!


It doesn't even need it's own spec, it was perfectly fine as it was. The only problem with it was Blizzard nerfed it excessively at the beginning of WoD.


And they can always balance it with the stance itself, like they did with the mastery buff in 6.2 only affecting gladiator warriors.
I don't like this.
11/11/2015 03:43 PMPosted by Protege

If you haven't noticed, Blizzard has been emphasizing classes for this expansion. Themes and unique playstyle are their priorities.


Except that so far in their reveals, they're flat out removing a lot of things that made classes unique under the guise of "they're hard to balance" aka "It would take too much effort to do so".

Discipline priests = shields are unique, but too strong, so we'll make them damage more to heal more and hopefully it'll heal as much in a raid setting as Holy.

Mistewaving monks = monks can melee dps to heal, but it's too hard to balance to be competitive, so it's gone. Oh, and that whole "chi" combo point thing, something really unique for healing, that's gone too. And "channeled" healing? Nah, it's unique, but why bother with it!

To be blunt Blizzard, you've been trying to play "catch up" to the game since you removed the idea of downranking a hell of a long time ago. You've never gotten mana management or role complexity as tight as it was back then, and it's mostly because you've been dumbing the role down. Less complexity or uniqueness is NOT a good thing in this role, why haven't you folks realized this yet?

Healers are a very precarious thing to balance. If you change too much, to the point where you remove things that actually drew people to the class and role to begin with, the only thing you're going to do is lose people in the role. This is not a way to improve the health of your game.

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