Dealing with the vocal minority

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02/03/2011 10:42 AMPosted by Gorosh
now, both sides of the fence claims that the opposite side is the minority, i didn't care before, nut now i want to know who is right and who is wrong.


You'll know as Blizzard makes changes to the game. If things stay the same then those who would seem to be displeased with the current game are in the minority.

If there really are a lot of people canceling then you can bet that Blizzard will adjust the game in hopes of getting them back.

Personally I think it's pretty absurd to imagine that "hardcore players" outnumber any other play-style in the game. Hell, I'd bet hard cash that there are more solo players in WoW than there are hardcore raiders.

02/03/2011 10:18 AMPosted by Mhm

The second most successfull, becaue wrath had those 2.5 millon from BC PLUS the millon it added.


This is entirely due to the China release.


No, it is entirely because the global crisis, it would have increase the playerbase in many millons i it wasn't for that.
And yet you come here, incessantly, unrelentingly, and constantly to repeat yourselves. But, what's worse perhaps is that you suffer from the delusion that you are the majority of the playerbase, and therefore represent it.


What makes you think they they are not representing the majority view as they could easily be?

For every complaint there could be millions that agree with it they just never come here and vocalize it.
02/03/2011 9:38 AMPosted by Syrison
Sure there are plenty of things to do but the grind to get into heroics and raids is long if you do not have the time. This would not be as bad of an issue but Blizz has ignored and even ridiculed some of the things that the more casual (read people that can't be glued to the game 5+ hours a day) wanted. It seems like Cata was just tailored to the more hardcore players that have more time to game.


My problem with this line of thought is that raiding wasn't meant to be for "casual" players. Progression is the name of the raiding game. My guild spent 3 hours last night trying to down 1 boss in Blackwing Descent. 4 the night before on Throne of the Four Winds. No one in our complained about how hard WoW is. We know that raiding isn't easy. We don't expect it to be. You HAVE to devote time to progression, learning, gearing, etc, to be able to raid. 5 hours is a decent night of progression to a raid minded guild. You don't have to do it every night! But you can't expect to log in and one shot bosses you've spent no time prepping for. Blizz isn't ignoring you. I'm sorry you feel that way. But think back to Vanilla WoW, if you played back then. 40 Man Raids. MC required 40 people, and had 10 bosses if I remember correctly. Temple of AQ required 40. ZG required 20. Ubrs 10. Can you imagine trying to learn all 10 MC bosses at lvl 60? Hours and Hours and Hours of time went into this effort. And I'm sorry, but people now just want to run in and get it done. You have the wrong mentality for Raiding. I'm not saying you're a bad player. I feel confident that posters are both good and bad players. I'm not saying you don't have the gear for it. I'm merely saying that if people want to raid, they need to have time to raid. And don't be upset if your pug raid fails. It takes practice, coordination, and time to learn to do these things. I'll continue putting in my raid time to learn the highest level bosses, because that's what I need to do to learn them. And so do you.


Most people aren't saying that raids shouldn't be hard. Most aren't saying that heroics shouldn't be hard. What they are saying is that the grind to do these things is too long and as thus takes the fun out of the game.

You want to raid? Make sure you have enough money to flask for the whole night. Make sure you have all the right gems and enchants.

But lets look at the cost. Flasks are in the end the most expensive and the stuff you need the most. Flasks, 250g. now lets look at the average guild, 4x4. 4hours a night, 4 days a week, a borderline casual/hardcore. That's still 4k per week to flask. High level weapon enchants are running near 10k on my server just because of the maelstrom crystals, those are over 2k per, and that's just weapon. So basically you need out of the box, about 20k to start raiding. Then you need to be able to keep up with the 4k per week cost. Dailies will net you 300-400 on average, thus if you do it 7 days a week, that's still only 2k, so you are bleeding cash and that's playing 7 days a week.

So to make up for that, you have to endlessly grind for mats and sell them on the AH along with the 2000 other people doing the same thing. gg.
Posted by Shioc
Anyway what no one can argue is that there is alot of discontent here with this expac and people on both sides unwilling to budge


Oh, no, I don't argue that at all. I argue two things:

1. It is impossible to tell from just what is posted on the forums how satisfied/dissatisfied the overall WoW player base is. Good or bad, the forums are just plain a terrible metric for that. You can't tell what portion of the player base is posting. You can't tell how many quit without posting, you can't tell how many are having fun with the game and don't bother posting.

2. Your opinion isn't necessarily right. Neither is mine. I say "Cata is good." You say "Cata is bad." Assuming the entire population is evenly split like the two of us, which should Blizzard listen to? Either way they are going to lose customers. Which is more important? Probably neither. By the way, both of us are entirely selfish. You say "I don't like it, change it." I say "I like it, leave it!" We are each thinking of ourselves in our complaints. Not what is best for the game, what is best for ourselves.


I agree completely with this post. Unless you are privy to the customer relationship management data that Blizzard has, it is impossible to tell what percent of the player base is for or against whatever the hot issue of the day is. They will do what is in the best interest of the owners of the company, not a bunch of "casuals" or "elitists" on the forums have to say. They are obligated to design and change the game so that it creates that maximum profit for the company or they will find themselves quickly out of the job in a market a volatile as video games. They definitely have the information they need to tweak the game in the way that they project will max the maximum amount of people happy. If it doesn't work, they'll quickly fix the problem.

It's also important to remember that not every customer is a profitable one. If you use more in services than you are paying for them, they are looking for a way to churn you away because you are actually losing them money.

Edit: Wording
This is how expansions (except wrath) work. It starts out hard and then gets nerfed every patch as the less hardcore player base reaches the next tiers of conent and wants to succeed as well.
Yeah, it's the gear and how you play your class :-) I would highly recommend that new people play casters or Pallys and those with more of an idea of how the game is played should play a warrior or a rogue. The game becomes less "hard" and much easier :-) WoWHead.com is an excellent site for "unexpected hang-ups" as well. It just comes down to using the resources at hand :-)
Out of all of this vocal minority stuff. There are actually some provable numbers. By numbers I mean the amount of people raiding. And when you look at it, 2 months into the expansion. The numbers have dropped drastically from where Wrath was.

I'd say from looking at WoWprogress, that 25m numbers are down around 90%. 10m raiding numbers are down about 75%.

Thus, those advocating the continued hard mode difficulty, the continued grind, at least when I look at the numbers, the hardcore elitist types are drastically in the minority. They don't represent the vast majority of the playerbase.

But even looking at that, that's just the raiding population. Thus lets assume some simple numbers, out of 12mil, lets say about 20%ish raided in WotLK, Thus that makes roughly 2.4mil that raided. Now drop those numbers to cata, 240,000 in cata do 25's. and go with 160,000 for 10's, thus roughly 400,000 around there are raiding. Now that may sound like a big number.

But out of 12mil, that's basically 3% of the population, and those are the ones advocating that things stay as they are.
02/02/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Vìndictus


"u r minority 2". The OP is not talking in regards to himself. He is talking about the players that complain about Heroics. Go and google 'strawman fallacy', because that's all you're demonstrating with these posts.

I agree with the OP, but you made me google that. Damn you for making me learn!
02/02/2011 5:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
You cannot please everyone. It just doesn't happen.


True. We realize that there are so many different kinds of players in World of Warcraft that no single design approach can perfectly please everyone -- just as no single position can adequately represent everyone.

Historically, those who carry reservations about a design direction are more likely to make their perspectives known on this forum. It's interesting that, in this case, there are a number of players raising their voices in favor as well. Generally this kind of thing tends to be a bit more one-sided, and it's become abundantly clear that this is a contentious issue. Players on both sides of the fence (and those standing on the fence, under it, and hovering above it) have all made valuable points. No one perspective has a monopoly on the truth though, nor does one perspective necessarily represent the "majority"; all of your ideas will continue to be considered and weighed in the balance as we move forward.

We always listen. We also take forum posts in context with the feedback and observations derived from other sources to get a broader perspective. Most of all, we want World of Warcraft to be fun and we will continue our quest to perfect that goal. Never doubt for a second that you are all an integral part of the process.


I understand you have an obligation to cater to your player base; But I don't understand why you have to answer to the same criticisms over and over again; When you simply could refer them to an earlier topic that you already responded to. The outcry for content nerfs is probably the best example of this, thusfar.

By responding to this; You aren't making the game any more enjoyable. Your just making the forum community more maligned.

I suppose theres a fair bit of fun to be had on your part as well, dealing with all the fools. But all it does is draw more of them to you. Besides that, there are plenty of legitimate problems that deserve more attention than the same old, same old you're getting here every day.
02/02/2011 10:48 AMPosted by Gruntkil
For far too long, people have been coming to forums to complain. At first, I was under the impression that after a few months players may have matured more and, after learning the mechanics of certain challenging bosses, may have stopped coming to the WoW forums en masse to decry the game and repeat what has already been said millions of times by the community;

"That the new content is hard"

We know. The WoW dev team knows, as well.

And yet you come here, incessantly, unrelentingly, and constantly to repeat yourselves. But, what's worse perhaps is that you suffer from the delusion that you are the majority of the playerbase, and therefore represent it.

When people gather in this fashion, they are often pressing to push an agenda. This is true in politics, as well. Various activist groups (whom shall remain nameless) always gather together and do outrageous things for attention.

Just because you are part of the vocal minority of players who are pushing for content nerfs; Doesn't mean you represent the ones that don't come here to complain. Most rational players, in fact, avoid these forums like the plague for this very reason.

And a quick word to the moderators of these boards, as well. It is of this orc's honest opinion that you stop acknowledging this behavior. There are already dozens of posts by fellows like Zarhym putting people in the spotlight over dungeon difficulties. You could tell people your philosophy a hundred times; and it wouldn't be any different than just telling them once.

Don't give the limelight to people like this; They thrive off of your attention. It's called tough love.


I support this post.....in its entirety
Well written, OP.

I myself agree on the fact that this content can't please 100% of the playerbase. That is also the reason why every single product or service doesn't please everyone. They're just not perfect.
02/03/2011 11:06 AMPosted by Clod
This is how expansions (except wrath) work. It starts out hard and then gets nerfed every patch as the less hardcore player base reaches the next tiers of conent and wants to succeed as well.

Wrath heroics were challenging in normal dungeon blues. People seem to forget that simple fact. Once everyone was sporting T10 dungeon runs took less than 20 minutes to complete. At the end of an expansion its so easy to get over-geared epics that farming the first tier (like heroics or Karazhan in BC) is trivial. But at the start, people wiped, people rage quit and runs took longer. Much like they are right now.

Even in cata, in full heroic blues, the runs are practically trivial. in 372 epics it will be AoE zerg fests again.


I have been playing MMOGs longer than 99.9999% of the people who play WoW. The issues have always been the same. WoW is not some kind of new and unique situation. There has always been a false ideal that succeeding in MMOGs takes some kind of skill or ability, when all it has EVER taken is time. You are not a master of WoW because you do things others have not done YET, it just means you have had the circumstances to do it. WoW and other MMORPGs are not hard, the average player could complete ALL the content given enough time... and that is why time becomes the big issue, because the only difference is time. There is no real or significant skill or talent required to do all the content in World of Warcraft, yet some people continue to want to claim their is and hold others down.

The actual challenge is not reduced by modifying the time investments to make things accessible to anyone. I have heard it for a very long time now when people with more time than sense want to say that newbs shouldn't play or act like what they have done is somehow worthy of a medal or something. These games are not hard... it defeats the entire point of them, they are simply time consuming. Anyone who thinks they are better at an MMOG than someone else is clearly not because they don't even know enough to know it is not some kind of monumental accomplishment. It is enjoyable from the point of advancing and growing your character, but if you sit down and pat yourself on the back and gloat for downing a raid boss, then you are not as good as you think you are.

Nobody is claiming about things being too hard. A lot of people are complaining about things being too inaccessible. It is a massive difference, and one that seems to be a serious problem. I am usually non plussed by this kind of stuff, but parts of the expansion blow because of how they are designed and require a time investment.

The game is supposed to be fun for people. The fact that a few people only get satisfaction from keeping others down is not the group to cater to though. If you are going to disenfranchise a group of players those are the ones to disenfrachise, because they are a tiny part of the playerbase, and their satisfication does not come from playing the game, but comes from other people not enjoying the game, so their concerns are not even valid.
Don't forget, when you demonize people and call them lazy and wrath-babies, and only want welfare epics, and they are stupid and need to learn to play their class.....need I go on?

When you call names and label people of different opinion than yourself, you are silencing real debate and opinion and basically being a bully. How many people are going to come out and say they don't like the current content design if they know they are going to be labeled and berated by bullies? And yet, even with that threat in their face, look how many have come out anyway.

For real, genuine, open, honest debate, people need to respect other's opinions. Then we will see how people really feel.

Right now you have 4 options:
You are for the harder difficulty and you are either a really good player who knows your class and can adapt well, and other people who can't adjust are just all bad players. Or you are an elitist jerk who just wants to be in the top 5% (or at least feel like you are by pretending that you are better than everyone else and faceroll all content), and despise casuals having access to content and gear that only you should have access to.

Or you don't like the harder difficulty and feel that the heroics and regular raids have been tuned too high and are nudging out a big part of the playerbase and sucking the actual fun out of playing the game. Or, you are just a bad player and need to learn to play and "work" for your gear.

Those are apparently the only options you have. Two choices, you are either right, or you are demonized.
One thing that really stands out for me is that the people who are arguing in favor of the current paradigm bring to bear arguments such as this:

1. "Just learn to play and you'll be fine."
2. "Why should blizzard cater to bad players? Stop being bad and it's not difficult."
3. "If everyone stopped sucking then there wouldn't be a problem."

You get the idea.

Do you guys (Blizzard) actually take these as valid arguments? It strikes me as a completely unrealistic and unhelpful standpoint in the debate to assume that people are bad.

Do you have any thoughts on this?


That's a pretty heavily stacked way to ask the question, but I'll see if I can provide a satisfying answer anyway.

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Realistically, I recognize that a lot of the concerns that have been brought to bear address issues beyond dungeon difficulty alone, so, on that basis 'learn2play' isn't a particularly valid argument by itself, no.

Conversely, (and I think this is what those arguments are really getting at) we're coming from an expansion where, through much of its existence, whole swathes of class abilities - crowd control, certain types of heals - went virtually unused. We've gone from there to a place where if a group doesn't use crowd control, or otherwise employs reasonably good play overall, their chance of success dramatically decreases. We want to reward good gameplay, so the tuning on dungeons is less forgiving than it was. Despite that, as average gear quality and know-how increases, it is inevitable that more and more players will have easier and faster runs over all.

On the other hand, maybe things have come too far in the other direction. While we're seeing that player assembled groups have very good success, Dungeon Finder groups are having significant issues. That's something we're planning to address.

The World of Warcraft development team and Blizzard as a whole aren't composed of a single kind of player. We're players of all sorts, we suffer from the same issues (and enjoy the same triumphs) that you guys do. We’re keeping an open mind and taking into account all perspectives as we move into 4.0.6 and beyond.

Out of all of this vocal minority stuff. There are actually some provable numbers. By numbers I mean the amount of people raiding. And when you look at it, 2 months into the expansion. The numbers have dropped drastically from where Wrath was.


Early dungeons and raids in Cataclysm are tuned to be significantly more challenging than early instances in Wrath of the Lich King were, so that comes as no surprise. I’m not sure it serves as a valid basis for an argument.
We want to reward good gameplay, so the tuning on dungeons is less forgiving than it was.

I think the biggest component about this that you miss calculated was how long it actually takes to get gear in both PvE and PvP.

Sure in Cata it takes just as many successful heroics dungeon to buy a piece of gear with emblems as it did in WoTLK (approximately 10), yet you failed to consider how much longer it takes to run a dungeon in Cata. With dungeons taking 5x as long to run a dungeon in Cata than it did in WoTLK, and that's "if" you get a group that can complete it at all. That's nearly 6 hours of dungeons to be able to buy a piece of gear... not including queue time.

Beyond that, the gear that can be bought is of equivalent quality to that of the dungeon drops. By the time you can actually afford the JP gear, you're already sporting gear that is superior.

Similarly in PvP... it takes more than 6 hours (assuming a 50/50 win loss ratio and 20 minute games) to get a single piece of PvP gear from BGs.

There is clearly something wrong here.
That's a pretty heavily stacked way to ask the question, but I'll see if I can provide a satisfying answer anyway.

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Realistically, I recognize that a lot of the concerns that have been brought to bear address more than dungeon difficulty, so, on that basis alone, 'learn2play' isn't a particularly valid argument by itself, no. It fails to recognize a number of concerns that players have raised beyond simple dungeon difficulty, and takes a rather narrow view of the current situation.

Conversely, (and I think this is what those arguments are really getting at) we're coming from an expansion where, through much of its existence, whole swathes of class abilities - crowd control, certain types of heals - went virtually unused. We've gone from there to a place where if a group doesn't use crowd control, or otherwise employs reasonably good play overall, their chance of success dramatically decreases. We want to reward good gameplay, so the tuning on dungeons is less forgiving than it was. Despite that, as the average gear levels and knowledge increases, it is inevitable that more and more players will have easier and faster runs over all.

On the other hand, maybe things have come too far in the other direction. While we're seeing that player assembled groups have very good success, Dungeon Finder groups are having significant issues. That's something we're planning to address.

The World of Warcraft development team and Blizzard as a whole aren't composed of a single kind of player. We're players of all sorts, we suffer from the same issues (and enjoy the same triumphs) that you guys do. We’re keeping an open mind and taking into account all perspectives as we move into 4.0.6 and beyond.


Thank you for responding.

I didn't mean for the question to sound stacked, but I am firmly one one side of the debate (even though I've finished all the heroics without too much issue).

I don't suppose you could provide details about how you plan to address the issue of Dungeon Finder made groups?

The main thing that I'm concerned about, and this is something that went back to vanilla for me, is accessibility. It frustrates me, personally, to see so much effort put into designing and creating great content that only a fraction of the end game userbase will have access to.

I'm just speaking for myself, really, not for anyone else. But I enjoyed that level of accessibility in Wrath even though I wasn't able to complete everything.
02/03/2011 12:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We've gone from there to a place where if a group doesn't use crowd control, or otherwise employs reasonably good play overall, their chance of success dramatically decreases.
So basically you are saying... l2p?

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