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yea right
The people complaining about this issue are the same DPSers who think it's the healer's fault if they stand in the fire without moving.

End of story.
You want the new harder mode have to think healing mode because it was too easy for you before? you got it buster! please selected healing spec 1a.

you like how healing was before? you spent 5 years healing a certain way and dont like that it was taken away from you for no reason that you can seem to figure out? you got it buster!! please select healing spec 1b.

bam. both camps get what they want. everyones happy. no?

No, because only morons would choose 1a when 1b is so much easier.

Yeah, people enjoy challenges, but things are different when you say "here, struggle" vs "here, watch TV," especially when you are dealing with pugs.

I also suspect you would zone in, people would say "are you retarded? You're really 1a spec?" /votekick
02/03/2011 9:14 AMPosted by Fryski
How is blizzard going to get people to stand in line? How is blizzard supposed to fix people?

by fixing the product itself it will fix people. making it possible for people to tank and heal said dungeons will have a result of more tanks and healers signing up. more tanks and heals = less time in queue. common sense for most but obviously not for all. please no QQ about difficulty i don't care about your dungeons as long as pvp still works.
Giving people "vehicles" so they can perform roles outside of their class cheapens the point of having classes in the first place.

Adding another DPS slot would require rebalancing the entire PvE game.

And the only real solution to the disparity, which is to make every class a tank, dps, and healer at the same time, would basically require throwing the entire game out the window and rebuilding it from scratch as some kind of MMO Diablo.

The only solution to this problem that can be done within the confines of the existing game structure is to entice more players to be tanks and more tanks to queue, and the only ways to do that are to make tanking harder to screw up (and it's already very hard to screw up in 5 mans if you are even slightly capable) or providing extremely lopsided rewards to the tank (like giving them valor points for every single random dungeon they do in a day and not just the first one). Then you would get the classes that don't have a tank spec coming out of the woodwork to complain, and you would have a lot of people tanking that have no business doing so because they neither really want to nor are very good at it, but they want the reward. That is not a high-quality solution.

So, like others have said, you just need to realize that having the LFD tool in its current state is better than when it wasn't around, and if you're playing a class that can't tank you should either suck it up or make some friends that will tank things for you.
^ no, do not make tanking easier. Make DPS harder.

Using the LFD tool isn't the only way to run heroic dungeons. Just sayin

Which is why I only queue with guild.

If guildies aren't available for whatever reason, I smash the queue until I get an in progress and hope we're near the end boss, drop if we aren't.
02/03/2011 10:37 AMPosted by Bennett
Oh no Bennett, my comprehension is just fine. I got the idea you were going for.

I just think making this game at all easier for dps to get into dungeons via a "Class Suit" or vehicle is...dumb.

maybe you could elaborate on why it's dumb to speed up Q's for DPS?

I don't care that you don't like my idea, i'm an open minded guy, but some explanation other than "its dumb to help dps get in Q's faster" doesn't really cut it.

I didn't say "faster" - I said "Easier".

Easier - as in "Hurpderp I have 5 mins to play, i'll go as a tank-suit! Yaaay!"

Scene ends 3 minutes later with a wipe and 4 people telling Mr. "I don't know how to play a tank" DPS that he's a complete waste of DNA.

One more emo kid goes and cries, cause it was easier to go into LFD with a "Robo-Suit".

There aren't as many people that want to tank as there are people who want to fill other roles. The OP himself even alluded to this at one point.

Tiakatt, on page two, said : "I wonder, though. If DPS queues dropped to around 10 minutes, how many tanks who currently tank for the short queue time would switch back to DPS and help inch that queue time back up?"

To which the OP responded: "Possibly, but I doubt it. I believe most tanks do so because they like it, not just for short queue times."

I agree with the OP on that particular point; conversely, I also believe that those who do not tank right now truly do not wish to do so. That there are not more tanks now indicates that people just don't want to do it; they might switch for the incentives, but they'll just stop as soon as they either get what they need, or as soon as they see queue times go back up.

People talk about adding incentives for tanking, but there already is one, one so large that it's already generated a 9 page thread (probably more by the time I hit post) complaining on behalf of those who do not get to share in that incentive: instant queues. People have a huge incentive to run as a tank... but they also eventually run of things they need, and stop running. no matter what incentive you add, that *will* happen.

Redesigning instances to be 6-man would work... it would also require a complete overhaul of the game, including a complete restructure of the party interface and rebalancing every single dungeon in the game. Furthermore, it would also put greater pressure on the healer during AoE fights, since there are now 6 people to heal instead of five; while many AoE abilities heal that many targets, you can't always rely on them. That is a monumental amount of work that would have to be put into every single instance. Then what do you do with raids? Going from 6 to 10 isn't much of a jump for a raid, so do you keep the 10-man raids so close to a regular party? Or do you push them up to 12, requiring further re-balancing?

Something I didn't see mentioned was that the guild XP system is a detriment to the LFD system. With the patch, you'll need 3+ guild members to get guild xp by doing a heroic. That means that if I have one other person with me, I'm far mroe likely to wait until we have at least one more before queueing in. The result is that there are more guild groups out there, most of whom already have at least one dps, so pug dps find fewer spots. Combine that with the reluctance of many tanks to run with people not from their guild for multiple reasons, and there's just not that many tanks pugging, compared to DPS.

*shrug* You can talk all you want about Blizzard wanting to find solutions, but this is hardly the first game with a shortage of tanks. The LFD just slaps a very obvious number on it, making it more obvious exactly how big the shortage is.
02/03/2011 10:40 AMPosted by Snoreye
How is blizzard going to get people to stand in line? How is blizzard supposed to fix people?

by fixing the product itself it will fix people. making it possible for people to tank and heal said dungeons will have a result of more tanks and healers signing up. more tanks and heals = less time in queue. common sense for most but obviously not for all. please no QQ about difficulty i don't care about your dungeons as long as pvp still works.

It is possible for people to tank and heal dungeons. It is not possible for the vast majority of DPS to realize that they need to do more than just sit around and spam 3 buttons behind the boss. The reason people aren't queuing for randoms as healers or tanks is because those people are getting singled out for abuse by groups of DPS who can't play. Why would I want to heal a bunch of people who refuse to learn how to do their job correctly and then blame me for it?
02/03/2011 9:12 AMPosted by Vandalar

If millions of people said "Hey, we can't man this lever", then a good company would say, "Okay, lets re-think the lever and how we can get it to work for everyone."

There are solutions out there. Blizz is a smart enough company to figure it out.

You can bring a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. None of your posts make any sense at all. You can't expect blizzard to mind control its customers. If the vast majority don't want to tank or heal, expect high queue times for DPS classes.

If the queue bothers you so why don't you tank or heal? Your a Hybrid class and as such your in no position to complain!
02/03/2011 9:26 AMPosted by Rasputîn
nothing is broken. the mjority of users like the game and the LFD tool. The minority that is qq on the forums does not make up the majority of the player base.

why do people post nonsense like this when they really have no idea whatsoever.

Because the majority of the 12 million users that play the game do not post on these forums. That's a factual statement.

The majority of the players are satisfied with the game enough not to unsub. That's a fact-based statement. If you are still here, you must not be unsatisfied enough to quit. That means that you're satisfied enough to keep paying for a product and will likely continue to use that product until a time when you become unsatisfied.

If you don't like what's going on, unsub. Do you know how people got Blizzard to make cata harder? They unsubbed when they felt they were unchallenged in Wrath. Yes, many players did not mind the lack of challenge, but those players are also the most likely to not leave.

Brilliant marketing.
The mechanics of LFD work fine. Perhaps its the design and execution that are in need of work. How about tank/heal incentives, perhaps 20 more valor points for those positions. They could make 6 man heroics and buff boss health, to soak up more dps. Those are possible solutions that could bring the times down.
02/03/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Orichalum
Some "solutions"*:

  • Give every class the ability to tank and/or heal

  • Stop allowing people to create DPS characters

  • NPC tanks and healers

  • Delete the Dungeon Finder

* All of these are bad ideas

There is one equally unbalancing bad idea that they can do pretty easily, the same solution they gave us for The Oculus give people who tank bigger rewards. I say gave them 140VP or something like that. That way people have a reason other than faster queue times to tick that check that says Tank.

Oculus didn't get around the tank and healer issue with vehicles NO WAY.

A tank and healer was still needed, if everybody got drakes off the start didn't need to jump off them constantly and back on with buggy drakes keeping them in combat being ganked by pat drakes with overly long combat engage ranges, then I am sure this would've probably been very popular. If it was able to just be ran by 5 dps spec I am sure tons of players would have ran this and enjoyed it know its an alternative to an absurd wait time.
Here's my two cents, from a healer's point of view.

First, the reward is not proportionate to the effort. Tanks and Healers shoulder far more of the burden of success, but the reward they get is the exact same as if they were playing DPS. Actually, sometimes it's even less, since DPS often roll on Tank/Healing gear. Really, what's the point of taking on a much harder job if you're only going to pay me the same as the guy standing around pushing a broom?

Second, the new dungeons are long and tedious. In LK I'd queue up for 3 or 4 dungeons back to back, or at least hop from my main healer to my alt healers. In Cataclysm, there's no way I'm able to run that many dungeons. One or two runs, even if they go well, and I'm done.

Third, running with randoms is too much of a crap shoot. Last night on my priest I started five runs, out of which I finished two. And the only reason I requeued at all was because I wanted to finish up a little bit of rep grinding. Normally if I get a couple of bad groups I just say "screw it" and go farm mats or work on Archaeology or something.

So basically what I'm saying is, there just isn't enough incentive to make tanks and healers want to queue up in LFD, and certainly not enough to make them consistently queue multiple times - which is what it would take to reduce DPS queue times.
02/03/2011 10:40 AMPosted by Captanworgen
Get your own group together, pay a tank, whatever, and just stop it.

This is exactly what is happening on my server. People are offering 80g for tank and healers. Essentially offering their gold reward from the random to get a decent healer or tank. A perfectly good solution.
Redesigning instances to be 6-man would work

Not really. It just increases my chances of getting grouped with a complete moron.
The only possible suggestion I could offer would be for Blizzard to put in some kind of "weighting" system where people who haven't yet completed their daily random have a higher priority and thus shorter queue time. It could also "scale" with the number of LFD runs you've done that day. (ex: as DPS your 1st dungeon queue takes 10 min, 2nd takes 20-30, 3rd 45-60, etc)
ok simple solutions to your que times there pally who won't tank for whatever reason.

1. gear for tanking
2. pay tanks on your server to que with them
3. don't play bad (no idea how you play just throwing it out there)
4. dont harass your tanks (god knows there is noting worse than a dps who tries to control the tank especially when hes obviously been tanking for a long time)
5. Thank your tank and don't need on tanking items for your off spec unless you ask him first (realllllll fast way to get on an ignore list so you can't que with them again)
6. Don't be a jerk to anyone in the group play nice and offer to help ppl if they don't know something
7. gear for tanking for crying out loud its FUN!!!!

For the record I tank on the weekends prolly 25 regular instances a day because I love to tank but I hate jerk dps and am quick to /ignore them. Just wish Blizzard would add a feature to ignore someones entire battle.net account instead of just one toon =/

I have dps toons healing toons and 2 tanks everything but the tanks are now alts and do nothing but farm cause they bore me to no end hehe.

p.s. Im not dumb enough to pug a heroic as they take to dang long due to poorly played DPS from what I have encountered so the only people DPS can blame are themselves as far as this tank goes for long que times =)

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