Looking for Dungeon Queues...

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02/03/2011 9:19 AMPosted by Vandalar
You're a Paladin. You have the ability to tank. You have the ability to heal. You just won't.

Actually, I am a tank. I'm speaking on behalf of my Warlock alt.

In fact, I make it a point to try and tank at least 1 reg a night just to help the queues.

Do what I do, find a friend with a tank/healer and a dps, take turns filling those roles, problem solved. I use my pally for this reason and in fact it is why it was created, so I can take my turn.
It does work. LFG is fine.

02/03/2011 9:12 AMPosted by Vandalar
Blizzard can't force someone to play something they don't want to play.

It's like if one of your products required a man at a specific lever, but a customer calls and complains that no one is at the lever. It's not YOUR fault that no one is there to operate said lever, and you can't force anyone to man the lever to make it work. The only thing you can do is say "Too bad, you need to solve it yourself."

If millions of people said "Hey, we can't man this lever", then a good company would say, "Okay, lets re-think the lever and how we can get it to work for everyone."

There are solutions out there. Blizz is a smart enough company to figure it out.

But the lever is RIGHT THERE. there is no reason for anyone to not want to pull it except no one feels like it. Your customers would be complaining because THEY didn't feel like taking the necessary steps to solve the problem.

The whole reason behind 45 minute queues is that people are bloody LAZY. No one wants to take up a leadership role as a tank or the the responsibility of a healer. Everyone wants to play DPS because they don't have to worry.

Did the tank just die? Oh, it must be the healers fault. Lets curse him out and votekick him even though the tank was standing in three forms of fire and 2 of the DPS were tanking adds.

Adds are running loose? Must be the tanks fault. It doesn't matter that all three DPS were attacking different targets, lets just quit and let the next batch of DPS/heals deal with him.

But what happens when spells arent interrupted, adds aren't CCd, and the boss doesn't die fast enough? It certainly wasn't the DPSers fault, even though that's their role in the group. Obviously the tank and healer weren't geared enough to survive the encounter. Lets votekick one of them and then leave on the next wipe.

You see, DPSers in general believe they have no responsibility, only an entitlement to the rewards of the dungeon. And most groups only exacerbate this problem as the tank is usually the one to blame the healer, and the DPS just sides with the tank. No one bothers to blame DPS players and this leads to the role being very stress free compared to tanking and healing. It's naturally more appealing and the only way to counteract this is to make DPS play a bigger part in team dynamics... Which is exactly what Cataclysm is doing.
It's not like blizzard just set a the dps wait time to 45 minutes, that's solely a result of the class/spec make up of the players queuing up. Instead of complaining about it, *cough*, mister paladin why don't you off spec tank or heals and help solve the problem.
This is one of those things that really needs some explanation on the part of the people making the demand.

What exactly should they do? We all get it - "Fix queue times"; but how?

Seriously - what is blizzard going to do to speed up queues?

The problem is people; blizzard cannot fix people. Not trying to be degrading or <insert any other malicious synonym of your choice>

It isn't a code issue - that they could fix.
It isn't a bug - that they could fix.
It isn't a mechanic flaw - that they could fix.

To explain that (for those who are really stuck on the idea it is one of those things).

The queue takes people and sorts them into roles and puts them into lines.

When the queue gets 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps it launches an instance and invites them in.

And it does that, mechanically and defect free it does that.

The queue can't do any sort of weighting option. If there are 60 DPS, 4 tanks and 10 healers rotating through (yes, the numbers are larger I know).

Well that is just not enough Tanks to go around quickly - people are going to have to wait.

Again - people.

How is blizzard going to get people to stand in line? How is blizzard supposed to fix people?

I know it is frustrating, but really - what do people like yourself expect them to do?
There's a false perception that we don't want to change things or iterate on things regularly. This is not true. We are always looking at ways to improve the game and the systems within it. Finding the right solution though doesn't always happen as quickly as some would like, and when trying to account for human nature, things get a bit more difficult to predict. We can only provide the tools, see how things go, iterate on them, and see if things improve for you. But, these things take time and there's an awful lot of differing opinions out there.

No one is saying, "This is it, take it or leave it", we're simply saying, "This is our intention. Here's how we designed this to work/play out. Try it out and let us know how it goes."

We're still going to keep pushing to do better, to make things as balanced as possible, and to provide an epic and entertaining gaming experience. We just won't be able to do it overnight.

The Looking For Dungeon queue times are understood to be of issue for some people. If/when we find a better way to get you in to a dungeon quicker, we'll let you know.
Maybe another way to explain it is this:

You go to get in line for a prize, there are 2 lines, in one line you'll win a new car, the other line you'll win a new tricycle.

The line for the new car is looooonnng, the line for the new tricycle is fast, so fast that anyone in that line gets the prize instantly.

Now you come along and demand that the car line gets shorter.... in essence demanding that the sponsors of the game MAKE people move from the line you want to be in to the other line.

How do you propose they make the other people do what you don't want to do?
nothing is broken. the mjority of users like the game and the LFD tool. The minority that is qq on the forums does not make up the majority of the player base.

why do people post nonsense like this when they really have no idea whatsoever.
If a multitude of customers call us complaining that something doesn't work, we don't say "well then tell us what WILL work". We re-evaluate it and come up with a solution.

We don't say "Stupid users. Figure out a solution for us and THEN we'll implement it!"

If someone bought a widget from your company and called to complain that it doesn't fit properly up their nose would you then design a nasaly-insertable widget?

Nothing Blizzard can do can change queue times.
Part of the problem is that Tanking requires a lot of things that DPS does not.

1) Patience
2) Understanding Threat/Agro/Mob Mechanics
3) Patience
4) Thick Skin
5) Enjoying the Spotlight
6) Patience/Thick Skin
7) Leadership
8) Patience/Thick Skin

The more of the above list a person has the better / more capable tank they will be; and the more desire to tank they will have.

And, yes I am going to say it, back in the day just about everyone had that list.

I have noticed a huge shift towards
1) Need it now get it now
2) Stop yelling at me it makes me sad
3) What do I do guys, where do I go?
4) What does this button do?
5) Do I pull the one on the left, or the one on the right - let's discuss
6) Stop yelling at me it makes me sad
7) Cmon kill it already
8) I'm picking up my toys and going home.

How does blizzard fix that? Hell if I know.

ive got a great fix for this!

every time a dps comes to the forums to say how they don't like the long que times and how blizzard needs to fix it

blizzard replaces their toon with a randomly selected tank/healing class of the same race gives them = ilvl tanking/healing gear and changes their spec to a tank/healing spec which they can never change and stops letting them que as anything other then tank/heal it would lower the que times for dps a lot!
Maybe Blizzard's issues comes from listening to Forums for suggestions and not thinking of enough of them on their own.

Like when they Released Cataclysm data into Wrath. "Whoops, people hitting 14k dps when Health pools are 32k?"

I almost quit WoW altogether then until i came back and saw damage was fixed accordingly.

They don't test enough data or try and handle things on their own. In a way they do appease to the consumers like you, Manufacturer, except they dont respond to it with their own drawing boards. They just look on the forums for alot of their suggestions...
02/03/2011 9:28 AMPosted by Nèna
NPC tank! has the item level average of the group.

if that were an option quite frankly i would not run with any group anymore and just solo instance unless it was extremely inefficient. and even then, it might be worth it.
02/03/2011 9:19 AMPosted by Vandalar
You're a Paladin. You have the ability to tank. You have the ability to heal. You just won't.

Actually, I am a tank. I'm speaking on behalf of my Warlock alt.

In fact, I make it a point to try and tank at least 1 reg a night just to help the queues.

Then, odds are, you know why there are so few tanks.

You are expected to be geared enough to properly tank the instance. You are expected to lead the run. You will split the blame with the healer if anything goes wrong (regardless if the blame should be assigned to someone aside from the tank or healer).

I have yet to tank an instance, but I'm getting close. I'll finish up as a healer first as it gives me a chance to experience the mechanics and pulls without having to be responsible for leading. Once I know the pulls and have the gear, I'll tank.

So, based on my point of view, here's a potential solution:

A new version of the heroic dungeons that drop no loot. The four other players are NPC's in 337 iLvl gear. The DPS will respond to marks to do cc and focus fire. The healer will keep me up and provide group healing on unavoidable damage. The group will engage when I issue a ready check.

There. Now tanks would be able to learn instances in a stress free environment so they won't have to worry about learning mechanics/pulls while trying to lead a group of semi-hostile players.

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