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This has been said many times in many different ways I'm sure, but as a die-hard tank who cancelled my account last week, I thought I'd at least add my voice to the discussion before I "dropped group" so to speak.

I started playing Day 1 of BC. Tanking (or should I say, the play-style of a tank) has always been my favorite part of the game. I have a warrior, pally and DK tank (with a 53 druid tank) with warrior being my current preference. I don't care about DPS or healing (unless I'm taking it :oP ), I care about defending my group from harm, the mechanics, letting a boss pound on my face, etc.

Adult life, however, has prevented me from being able to be in a solid guild full-time so for this expansion I succumbed to the reality of having to PUG-tank heroics.

As a tank for 3 years running I've taken my fair share of abuse, especially when learning new fights. I'm not a "world-class, hardcore" player, but I love what my role brings to the table, I know my abilities, how to use them intelligently and watch all the fights before I queue up for the dungeons.

The reality now is that unless you are in a guild, PvE tanking no longer exists: in WoW there is only PvP tanking. Either someone in arena is pwning you with a spell or some jerk on the other end of the etherwebz is pwning you with trash-talk and insults. I've never been abused in the game as much as I am now. For me personally, the problem originates from many of the players (there were A LOT of these sort of people at this year's Blizzcon) as well as the fact that these players are being given more challenge and responsibility and refuse to adapt. I love the execution of Cata more than any of the other expansions to date. I even love Goblins which I never expected to even play once.

Is there some sort of in-game solution Blizzard could add to relieve or at least ameliorate the problem? Probably. But that potential solution is similar to what our historical government's solution is to fixing problems in the world: throw money at it until it temporarily subsides long enough to pass the now-greater problem onto the next administration and generation of citizens (no I'm not bashing Obama et. al).

The problem isn't the game, the problem is much of the current player-base. I've been running a few dungeons here-and-there as a DPS and I can report that many of the self-entitled DPS are just as depressing as the center-of-the-universe tanks and you're-so-lucky-to-have-me healers. Maybe you can 'blame' Blizzard for dumbing players down with Wrath which made the skill transition very steep, but two months have passed now and that period should have passed.

No matter what class, race, faction or role you play, if you want shorter queue times and want to improve your overall enjoyment of the game, stop demanding Blizzard change the game and start taking a look at how you interact with others.

Ignore for a moment that tanks are in short supply in the LFD tool and more importantly recognize the fact that there are very few QUALITY players in the LFD of ANY role, period. This reality is in my opinion the most tangible example of KARMA I have ever witnessed in RL.
I haven't cancelled my account, but I am considering quiting playing for a while...which will end up on a cancelled account if I find something better to spend the money on.

Bottom line - I loved the LFD tool in Wrath. I hate it in Cat. The pug players were just as dumb in Wrath - but the Dungeons didn't require all the coordination. That's what raids were for.

When I can get in a guild group there are no problems. But the tanks long ago have everything they need from these - so they do their daily and are done.

I tanked through the Lich King in wrath, but I haven't been able to get into enough dungeons to learn the fights to want to tank in Cat.

I don't have the time in my life this year to master and study fights, so I am not raiding. I expect raiding to require thought and coordination because the rewards are worth it. I don't expect that from LFG.

Today I waited 35 minutes and foolishly accepted a grouping request to kill Haltor (or whatever) on a daily....Restarted the que and waited 40 minutes. Spent 40 minutes getting to the first boss in Grim Batol because the tank had to figure out each pull. Then the group wiped twice on him - I was the highest dps and the last one alive. Everyone left....Does that mean I am at the front of the que? Nope. 35 minutes estimation...so I logged off and came here to write this.

As a casual player, this just isn't fun.
I didn't mind waiting 40 minutes because I could find something else to tide me over while I waited. But I just finished waiting 40 minutes to get into Heroic SFK and was immediately vote-kicked with no explanation given. We had not pulled, I had not spoken, just waved once.

I was unaware that the safety net of at least fifteen minutes was removed completely, meaning people can simply be removed for gear score or other miscellaneous reasoning immediately. Perhaps others equal to me do not, but I consistently top the meter in every Heroic that I can, possibly because Hunters are overpowered in PvE, but also because I give 110% the entire time. I have been complimented a number of times on wonderful crowd control and occasionally on my sense of humor.

Alas, that left me completely humorless. I haven't been kicked yet from a group, and they did not even have to give me a chance. Now I wait another 40-50 minutes so the same thing can possibly happen. I guess I am left assuming that I was clearly just unworthy to run that Heroic with such an amazing few people.

Back to flying around aimlessly...
Ah, another tanking/healing class going DPS and complaining about queue times *clap clap clap*
People complain about the way Ghostcrawler posted to us, I feel like OP is insulting my inteligence. There's nothing wrong with LFG. It works the way it was intended, to put a group of people together in the proper roles to work towards a common goal of gaining items, completeing quests, or just having fun.
The relative lack of tanks really isn't the problem, here. The problem is that heroic dungeons in Cataclysm take too d*mn long, even if you get a group of moderately-competent, half-way-decently-geared peeps in your pug group.

By the time someone has trudged through the 2-3 hour mini-raid to get their daily valor points, why on earth would they re-queue for another onslaught of that abuse? There were certainly tanks in Wrath that were there for their daily two frosties and they'd skip bosses and kite large groups of mobs as if their daily chore was a race so they could get done and be done for the next 24 hours, but there were also tanks that queued and re-queued 3 or 4 times in a row. Why? Well, (1) it was a way to farm gold, if nothing else, (2) they were building a boa set, (3) they were helping a friend out, and/or (4) they were trying to get lucky on boe drops that they could sell on the auction house.

Consider what would have happened if the trilogy of Forge of Souls, Pit of Sauron, and Halls of Reflection were all wrapped up in a single instance and you needed to get to the very end of all of that for your two daily frosties. How many tanks would have requeued after that marathon? (Actually, that took less time to do than heroic Deadmines does today, even if you include the 3 queue times for a lone dps...)

What you need to have happen is not for more people to tank if their only reason for tanking is to reduce their own queue times for the Dungeon Finder tool, because they will end up just playing a position that they don't like for the wrong reasons. By all means, everyone should try tanking at least once to see what it's like. Everyone should also try healing at least once for the same reason. What needs to happen is that tanks need a reason to queue and requeue in the tool once their daily valor point needs have been met.

It shouldn't take as long as it does to finish a heroic dungeon. The duration of a dungeon can be shortened either by (1) making it easier (though I think this is not the right thing to do), or (2) making it smaller, with fewer bosses. Split the instances into halves or even thirds so that there is not more than 2 or 3 (preferably 2) bosses in each portion that merits you the valor points.

Also, make justice points worth something to the player who already has their boa gear and their 346 gear. Make new boa gear that works to level 85, or have jp vendors that sell mats like truegold for jp's, or even--dare I say it--have a vendor that sells valor points for justice points. Even if the ratio is 100 jp's for a vp I think it would do wonders for the LFD queue times.

But the problem is NOT the portion of people willing to tank a pug group. People qq about the 45 minute queue time, but seriously, folks--if the dungeon itself took less than 45 minutes to complete (not including the queue), even with a bunch of wipes as the pug group found their bearings and re-learned the mechanics of the fight, then queue times would be significantly shorter and more tanks would be willing to subject themselves to the pain of sloppy play.

That, and maybe stop penalizing tanks with the best gear from pugging. Someone decked out in 359 gear who is there for whatever reason (e.g. farming gold or boe items or jp's for boa gear) should not be subjected to 100-500g of repair bills if they are willing to put up with 2-3 hours of crappy and uncoordinated play when the players causing all the wipes get by with less than 50g in repair bills...
Having played and leveled a variety of classes and roles, I've come to the conclusion that a possible 7 or even 10 man mode (as before mentioned, 1 tank 2 heals 7 dps) should be available on instances similar to heroic mode or 10/25 modes that we see in raids.
If I have 5 guys, put 'em in a 5 man
If I have 6, and still no heals, slap them in a 10 man when the que pops
No matter what class, race, faction or role you play, if you want shorter queue times and want to improve your overall enjoyment of the game, stop demanding Blizzard change the game and start taking a look at how you interact with others.

Ignore for a moment that tanks are in short supply in the LFD tool and more importantly recognize the fact that there are very few QUALITY players in the LFD of ANY role, period. This reality is in my opinion the most tangible example of KARMA I have ever witnessed in RL.

that says it all.
ill admit its nice to be told im doing a good job once in a while, especially in the sea of idiots who needroll on anything they see, and then try to justify it down to the fact that blizzard gave them a need button for that item, so by god theyre going to use it.
fantastic when the item is plate, they DE it right infront of you and then make a gesture in your direction to rub your face in it, or start making anti black comments at you (for the record im white as a sheet, but i just dont tolerate that kind of carry-on, period.)

ive dealt with whole groups where they barely break the 4k mark on dps and weve cleared, just because im stubborn as hell, and a few have been apologizing to me for making me take so long to clear (because ofcourse, im playing a game i really have better things to do?) at the end and telling me im good at what i do.

as the above (quoted) poster stated, its not that there arnt enough tanks or healers, its that there are not enough decent players full stop, both in terms of how they play ... and their ability to interact with others.
id be willing to bet real money that the OP's problem would go away ... if blizzard made people take an IQ test and an online social interaction test in order to play wow, but they dont because it would probably drop their playerbase to about 3 million, so here we are dealing with stupid insociable people, who are unwilling to learn or who just dont learn.
You know what is really annoying. It's the 3-5min wait I get as a healer. There isn't any point running around quests/dailies etc, by the time you get there the queue has popped. All you can do is wait.
At least as DPS you get a decent chance to do stuff while queued.

/end sarcasm

I say eat the 45min queue times dps, you deserve it!

As someone who considers himself mainspec ret, I have to tank raids and heroics just to get by and make my life a bit easier, as my offspec. No use waiting 45 mins queuing with my friend when I can hop in a heroic 0.2 seconds after I click "Find Group" on LFD, am I right? Life as a tank might seem sweet to like 99% of you, because 99% of people qqing on this thread are in fact dps.

On a side note, I'm really bothered by the onslaught of qq I get from everyone else about paladins. I can recall clearly in a BG where I was ret, mage tells me "yo failret wtf you doin as ret go tank or heals rofl failadin stop being bad" and then spammed "failadin" incessantly.

So not only do I have tank on my offset for PvE content, people in bg's want me to heal them? Yo blizz I think you guys gonna have to implement triple spec, we just can't handle the workload cut out for us! People want us to tank, and they want us to heal, but when all we want to do is DPS we "suck at it" so the status quo is if you're a paladin or you are playing ret you're getting served the middle finger and being criticized because a) you do relatively very subpar dps and b) "yo wtf u doin as ret? tank or heal noob".

Regarding the 45 min queue times, after my daily heroic as tanking, why the heck would I bother getting into another 60-120min wipefest?

Let's face it, there are virtually NO incentives for tanks or healers to queue up again. And especially after going through a few pages of this qq thread do you think a tanks gonna be like "ohhhh poor little dps qqing on for 56 pages on threads yo maybe i should queue up for them i feel bad oooooo hey! this dk in pvp crafted gear and greens doin so godly deeps 6k and if i was dpsing as ret i'd pull 12k but hey no i'm supposed to be the worst dps class out there right? and hey this healers going like brb guys 10 mins afk and dc's and "This player cannot be kicked for another 25 mins." Then when a tank posts "Well I try to queue an extra time or two to help alleviate queue times for the dps" only to be replied to by an absolute moron "heyy durr mathz not hard 1 extra tank queuein not gonna help my queue time go from 45 mins to 15 hurr hurrrrrr"

02/03/2011 9:22 AMPosted by Keestus
I try to kill at least 1 mosquito per day to help prevent the West Nile virus.

-Make heroics take less time. I have to agree with casuals on this one. Waiting for 45 minutes just to be put in a failgroup is no fun. Heroics take at the VERY LEAST 1 hour to complete, and this is coming from a 357ilvl tank that wipes once in a blue moon, pulls aoe packs to get things done faster wrath-style. Having to spend 2-3 hours for a heroic every day is just unacceptable!

-Provide benefits for tanks and healers queuing for a second time, e.g. no durability loss for dying, extra gold, extra valor, good tangible rewards. This should at least provide some incentive to queue again, if you're not queueing because of the loot like me because you're practically epic'ed out.

-Treat your tanks and healers like gold. I don't care if they are bad, giving them tips and advice and trying to help them out will more likely invite them to queue up as their current spec in the future and not having to dread whenever they tank because someone thought they were doing very bad last time.

And lastly but MOST IMPORTANTLY, DPS-learn how to play. I hate getting crafted epic shadowpriests in my group doing 3.4k on bosses. No you guys can't blame you are bad on dps and blame blizzard to fix your dps output, this is a right reserved by paladins for the time being. You guys make up 60% of the group, and it is in your power to stop being arrogant idiots and failing in bg's, raids and heroics and having paladins having to offspec tanking to pick up after your crap.

At least the 15% Luck of the Draw buff is a start.
Considering you can't change the core philosophy of WoW combat roles--tanks, heals, and dps are all required to complete a dungeon--you have to address the fact there aren't enough "tanks."

This problem is some what addressed at the core of the group system, as there are twice as many DPS in a group than either tanks or heals. Keep following me, bought to blow your mind.

So, solutions:

1) Create more tank classes (again partially addressed with the addition of DK's). This includes the idea of giving existing classes a tank spec.

a)A priest that can't deal damage, but has shields, and aoe taunts?
b) Warlord shaman, increased health regeneration with no elemental casting ability. Eskimo totem that bring the aggro and channels it to the shaman.
c)Hunter pets, increase the pet tool bar, give tank pets more abilities. Go as far as letting the hunter play from the pet perspective (looking through eyes spell or something already existis)
d)These are just a few, and they took two minutes to brain storm, and i'm an idiot.

2)Make tanks more inviting to play.

a)Allow for class specific gear to offer higher tank bonuses/look cooler, etc. Make tank gear more appealing.
b)Get more people that are in existing tank classes, to spec for tank by offering/increasing tank spec talents.
c)Introduce a rewards system, you get class specific points after completing a dungeon. Obviously make the tank rewards dope.

You could go way outside the box with ideas of how to make more tanks, or allow for a wider range of dungeon completion methods (a group besides the traditional Tank, heals, dps, dps working). However, i believe the above suggestions work within the existing game mechanics and the play style of WoW. WoW is a behemoth mega giant in the gaming world, and the King to dethrone. I believe long queues are only a slight problem, and this game will continue to evolve and stay ahead of the "game," no doubt in my mind.

TL;DR: Increase tank classes, allow more classes to tank, make people want to tank more, and I'm awesome.

I totaly agree with this, i have 1 tank 1 heals and 8 dps on my realms char list, my tanks get almost instant my heals wait about 5 mins and my dps barly get in at all. they should fix it or get rid of it, its a pain to be a dps and queue for one when u cant get in til 20+ mins.
I play a tank. I love playing tank.most people don't like the idea of putting themselves in harms way and i can respect that. however if you really like to dps and want an insta-q, i suggest looking for a tank the old fashioned way. maybe offer some gold to a tank or just talk a good friend into rolling a tank. Or i don't know, maybe join a descent guild. basically if you don't like the wait i'm sorry but i don't see any way to fix it because its not broke.
I like tanking. I played an 80 DK and 80 Pally in wrath, and now have a 85 pally and am leveling up a warrior. My warrior I have leveled from 15 to now 56 in instances alone. I leveled from 83 to 85 in instances on my paladin. I like tanking.

I dont chain heroics any more because save 2 items there isnt anything I want from them, and jerks who dont know the fights and like to blame others when they fail make it a whole lot of not very fun. If you want more tanks to que up, then dont be jerks to us when we do. There is, for me, little motivation to tank heroics with people I dont know when I am almost certinally going to be insualted and blamed for anything that goes wrong.
@ straasha

I can't seem to quote you but it would fix ques at least slightly you see people who tank/ heal tend to play certain races for their class . That being said it would be a sight fix to the overall problem and anything is better than nothing. Also how cool would it be to have alliance and horde in the same dungeon fighting for a common cause.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2335 Edited by Nethaera on 2/3/11 5:29 PM (UTC)
I work in manufacturing. We take great pains to design our product to be so easy that an idiot can figure it out. We made descriptive labels, we make user instruction booklets, etc that explain exactly how to use it.

Sometimes, despite our best effort, the customers just don't get it. They can't figure out how to use it or it just doesn't work.

Now, were I Blizzard, I would go to my 11 million paying customers and say "Sorry, that's the way it is. Suck it up."

Fortunately, we are not Blizzard. If something doesn't work for the vast majority of people, then we go back to the drawing board and figure out another solution that may work better. We don't simply say "Sorry, customer. We made it idiot proof and it's not our fault you don't know how to use it."

The LFD tool is currently unacceptable with 45 minute queue times. Saying "more people need to play tanks" is not a solution. I don't know what the solution is, but it's Blizzards JOB to come up with some kind of solution, not just say "Sorry, customer, suck it up!"

TLDR: Blizzard needs to fix the long wait times on LFD and not just say "play a tank if you don't like it!"

*edited the title to something more indicative of the topic.- Nethaera

Actually, this guy has a point...
In any other industry, blizzard would be out of business.

I know this is a complicated concept, but customers have money. Businesses want money. To acquire money, businesses must satisfy customers. Its not about what works, or what the customer needs, but about getting money. That usually means doing what ever the customer wants. PERIOD.
Without the customer, there is no money. Without the money, there is no business.
Without the business, there is no blizzard.

Even in software development courses they will teach you that meeting the customers expectations is more important than anything else. Its your software, but its designed for the satisfaction of the customer who uses it.
It may be blizzards game, but its existence depends on our satisfaction.

True, blizzard does have enough addicted fanboy junkies to let them get away with murder....
Offer a solution then.

Currently, as I understand it the LFD tool will not queue 2 of the same class to an instance. So, for example, if there is a pally tank, there will not be a pally heal or DPS. This is presumably to avoid QQing over loot for off-specs.

If this restriction was lifted, there would be a slightly reduced queue time for some classes (druid and pally DPS in particular).

This was particularly evidentafter Cata, when so many worgens hit the streets. The restricted number of classes for worgens made for incredibly long queues for worgen DPS druids for the low-level dungeons (notably Ragefire).
83 Night Elf Druid
Cellar Dwellers
Offer a solution then.

Currently, as I understand it the LFD tool will not queue 2 of the same class to an instance. So, for example, if there is a pally tank, there will not be a pally heal or DPS. This is presumably to avoid QQing over loot for off-specs.

If this restriction was lifted, there would be a slightly reduced queue time for some classes (druid and pally DPS in particular).

This was particularly evidentafter Cata, when so many worgens hit the streets. The restricted number of classes for worgens made for incredibly long queues for worgen DPS druids for the low-level dungeons (notably Ragefire).

This guy has the first valid idea in this whole thread!
I agree.

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