Looking for Dungeon Queues...

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Agreed, 10 man will suck up more dps with still one tank.
IMO healers aren't as badly needed.
02/06/2011 9:53 PMPosted by Geniva
So GC's L2P blog wasn't telling us to take it or leave it?

Not if you bothered to read it, no.
I can honestly say, as a tank, queue times ARE Blizzard's fault.

I will tell you why.

I personally have completed every heroic and gotten the best pieces of feral tanking gear that I can find (prior to raiding). I had to hold the hands of practically every group I met. (I once had a hunter tell me he had no CC)

(Upcoming ego story) I had one group, all from the same server, offer to pay my server
transfer, if I would go to their server and tank for them.

Once I gathered the best gear I could get, through mind numbing fail group after fail group, I stopped queue-ing and eventually canceled my subscription, as there is nothing else for me to do. And I certainly do not want to queue for dungeons anymore, as I find wiping repeatedly and spending 100g+ on repairs for someone else's benefit absolutely ridiculous.

There is a difference between trying to help someone out and trying to cure the stupidity and laziness of others.

Blizzard has made the game to difficult for the majority of the player base.
I understand what Ghostcrawler is trying to achieve, but I think he should wait for a new MMO to do it.

Example from random employee from company X:

"Let's make a game that is stupid easy, even a monkey smashing a keyboard can get epics, and then... make an expansion that makes the game so difficult, all the people we lured in by E.Z. mode will QQ and leave! HAR HAR HAR!"

One of my good friends happens to be an older lady, in her late 50's. She has loved WoW since launch and only enjoyed it even more with each expansion and each new level of "easy" that was introduced. This latest expansion has made her cancel her subscription as she has lost any hope of ever achieving "greatness" in this game.

Imagine going to an ATM and being handed a $20 bill every day. You didn't really have to do anything, you just showed up, said hello, poked a few buttons and it gave you free money. This goes on for around 5 years. Approaching the 6th year, all of the sudden the ATM wants you to run 10 miles every day, feed bloody steak to a bear, and recite the Japanese alphabet... backwards... with a mouth full of nails, all for a measly $20.

Something tells me you are either....

A) Going to find another ATM
B) Give up on ATMs altogether.

In conclusion, bad Queue times ARE Blizzards fault.
Bad/idiotic players who cannot meet the demands of the new dungeons make tanks not want to queue.

- Zu

Edit: Bad/Idiotic players are branded as "Bad/Idiotic" because of the severity and difficulty of the new dungeons, not because they actually ARE bad. I would never call my almost 60 year old friend "Bad", she does quite well for her age, she just cannot compete with the new designs.
ya mad bro?
Here's my take on this situation.

1) In reference to queue times: If you play a DPS spec you are just going to have to understand that 90% of the planet has made the same decision as you. Mainly because being a DPS is easy. Most people either do not have the patience, or dare I say the skill, to be a tank or a healer. My main spec is shadow, but my off-spec is holy. If I wanted to I could say screw it and heal heroics for a shorter queue time, but I play my shadow because I love it. Therefore it is MY decision and MY fault that I wait in queue for 45 minutes, not Blizzards.

2) In reference to difficulty: I don't want to hear anyone complaining about how hard these heroics are. I'm actually getting sick of it really. There is nothing going on in heroics that you can not move out of. All you have to do is pay attention, stop tunnel visioning, and know your class. I have completed every heroic dungeon (all through Dungeon Finder no less) and I can admit that I enjoy Cata's heroics more than I did in Wrath. In Wrath, heroics were easy mode. I could walk into one and just lay waste to everything around me. Then came the day that I walked into my first raid. I assumed I was in for the same thing that I had been doing all along. I could not have been more wrong. Wrath heroics in no way, shape, or form prepared players for what they would face in raids. I was excited to see that this changed with Cata. Also, why should the content not progress? Almost everyone got into a Wrath raid at one point or another, and most learned the mechanics. Why should Blizz not add to the knowledge that we already have to keep WoW fresh and exciting?

Raider Rule #1: If it's glowing on the ground GTFO!!!
02/07/2011 2:05 PMPosted by Imasquishy
In Wrath, heroics were easy mode. I could walk into one and just lay waste to everything around me. Then came the day that I walked into my first raid. I assumed I was in for the same thing that I had been doing all along. I could not have been more wrong. Wrath heroics in no way, shape, or form prepared players for what they would face in raids. I was excited to see that this changed with Cata.

An interesting point, but I propose a counter argument.

Be it 10-man or 25-man when you're raiding you're typically going to be running with a core group of members each time you step into the instance. Sure one or two people might be swapped out due to whatever reason from time to time, but the core members return whenever scheduled to run.

When you run with a group of players like this you form group cohesion. You get to know how each player tackles their role, understand their strengths and weaknesses, and discover what each player is capable of.

The raid group that I have been a part of ever since the launch of Wrath is like this. The same people keep showing up two nights a week to get together and tackle the latest raid boss. Occasionally someone can't make it or has to step out for a few months at a time, but the core group is still there. At some points we can even finish each others sentences since we know each other that well.

To expect this type of coordination and cohesion from a LFD group is ridiculous and is not something that will ever happen. The point of LFD is to group up random players, whom you most likely have never come across in the game before. Dungeons are dungeons while raids are raids and is it important that this distinction between the two remain the same.

Something can - and will - go wrong, in which case the blame game starts flying around landing the tank with a swift votekick out of the group.

Edit: I feel the need to elaborate more.

I'll be the first to agree that Wrath heroics were far too easy, and it's nice to see the shift in difficulty with the Cataclysm dungeons. I'm not arguing that the instances are too difficult, far from it - I'm arguing the fact that instances aren't fun.

The fact of the matter is more tanks would equate to a shorter queue time. As an individual attempting to get into tanking it's apparent why there is a lack of tanks, or rather people willing to queue as a tank.

Standing up and taking the role of a tank means accepting responsibility. You are expected to be the leader of the group. This means knowing fight mechanics and which trash mobs should be CCed with what CC. With fight mechanics little information is available in game appart from running the instance so now you are expected to use outside resources (which aren't always accurate) and invest your time researching the fights there. None of this information is as helpful as actually getting some seat time in the fight.

As for CCs, for this not only do you have to know your own class, but you must know each other class as well to have an understanding on which CCs are appropriate, what mobs to use them on, and when to use them. I have yet to see a DPS player outside of guild take the initiative and mark their own CCs when coming up to the next group of trash. Doing so would result in a quicker instance and you most likely know your own class better than I do (I hope).

Accepting the role of responsibility however also means that when something goes wrong, your fault or otherwise, and the blame game starts the finger will be most often pointed at you. In today's WoW this typically means that you're about to be lipped off with someone raging at you through their keyboard with all their might telling you to "Tank harder! L2P nub" which will be quickly followed by a swift votekick with the reason being "failadin" or whatever class specific insult they can think of.

The respect for players within the game is nonexistent at best. With the anonymity that comes from playing cross-realm comes the ability for individuals to say whatever snide comments they feel are too important not to share with the rest of the world with little or no repercussion. The main reason I avoid the LFD havoc-zone is for the simple fact of I'm not going to spend an hour (minimum) of my time leading you through an instance only to be abused more than someone going through airport security when something goes awry. On the flip side I could drop group, insta-queue for another attempt, and get stuck in a heroic for another hour or however long it takes to get through to the end.

The line between blaming Blizzard for the situation and blaming the community is a hairline. No matter how I look at it both are equally responsible. An addition to the game that would be nice to see is provide the community some method of being able to hold each other accountable for our actions. The ability to votekick is nice, but all that means is the person will be back in the mix of things as soon as their cooldown is up, being as big of an asshat as they deem appropriate with the next tank they're running with.

The community is not capable of taking care of this on it's own, otherwise it would have been dealt with long ago. This isn't Call of Duty or Halo where trash talk is acceptable, this is World of Warcraft where courtesy and respect are paramount in order to achieve victory. Some sort of a mandatory feedback system, that is easy to view in game (similar to inspecting another player) so that other players can quickly access it. A negative rating would be viewed as a badge of shame, which would require a change in attitude of the player in order to correct. A positive review would offer benefits in the form of extra JP or VP upon dungeon completion. The more you use LFD the more reviews you have, the more reviews the less of an impact abusive or negative feedback will have on your overall rating.

TL;DR: Playing the role of a tank requires large amounts of time and effort to get a hang of. When our efforts are met with rudeness and disrespect it's no wonder why there's a shortage of those willing to take that role. Blizzard needs to take a stand and no longer tolerate this behavior in game.
I work in manufacturing. We take great pains to design our product to be so easy that an idiot can figure it out. We made descriptive labels, we make user instruction booklets, etc that explain exactly how to use it.

Sometimes, despite our best effort, the customers just don't get it. They can't figure out how to use it or it just doesn't work.

Now, were I Blizzard, I would go to my 11 million paying customers and say "Sorry, that's the way it is. Suck it up."

Fortunately, we are not Blizzard. If something doesn't work for the vast majority of people, then we go back to the drawing board and figure out another solution that may work better. We don't simply say "Sorry, customer. We made it idiot proof and it's not our fault you don't know how to use it."

The LFD tool is currently unacceptable with 45 minute queue times. Saying "more people need to play tanks" is not a solution. I don't know what the solution is, but it's Blizzards JOB to come up with some kind of solution, not just say "Sorry, customer, suck it up!"

TLDR: Blizzard needs to fix the long wait times on LFD and not just say "play a tank if you don't like it!"

Don't feed the troll.
I work on my loremaster achievement while waiting for ques. Just saying.
having not read most of the 58 pages i will tell you what most qqers want for a shorter queue times, that want tanks to hold aggro with ease so tank classes will tank and not have the difficulty of threat management. if threat were easy more tanks will queue.
rofl, there is absolutely nothing Blizz can do about it, except possibly make it so mages can tank? /shiver

I look at it, and i'm incredibly smart, have an IQ of 140+, and i've sat down and tried to think of anything they can do that will fix the "problem". I don't see it.

Few people want to play tanks/healz, nothing blizz can do about it.

I for one think the problem is in your perspective. If all you want to do is run randoms, tank or heal. If you dps, you can make quite a bit of money by doing dailies, trolling the AH, and omfgnoway, helping a new player, maybe even talk to your guildies. O= Any of this can be done in what is now the relatively short compared to before queue time.

If you try to combine battlegroups for more tanks, you are also doubling the dps, healz, as well as said tanks, leaving you with a bigger version of the "problem".

If your manufacturing company brain knows something that the rest of us don't, please share.

Edit: i'm somewhat tired and reread it, and noticed that my grammar failed. Specifically in the run-on sentences department. D=

p.s.- please note i'm not boasting about how i'm smarter than all of you, if you knew me, you'd like me, i'm smart, but i won't rub it in your face.
Another fantastic thing you can do is. Put it into windowed mode. Pull up your net browser and watch your tv show that you missed the night before. =O
I'm incredibly smart, have an IQ of 140+...

With your vast intellect I hoped that you would have realized that stating such is moot.
There is a 45 minute queue because there are alot of people like you doing DPS. If you want shorter queues, then go heal or tank. Not Blizzards problem if you want to be stubborn.
02/07/2011 2:05 PMPosted by Imasquishy
Raider Rule #1: If it's glowing on the ground GTFO!!!

Also this. k, i'm done, please feel free to take my advice with.....grace!!, that's the word, and acknowledge that blizz can't revolve around 12 million people at the same time, UNLESS, we all agree on the same thing. (lord knows that won't happen).

Everyone has a different opinion. 12 million opinions, and only, what, like a few thousand blizz employees max? quite a few of them being the guys that make sure the wires are plugged in the right holes, not having a thing to do about "queue times".



I'm a dude, but my straightness prevents me from staring at a dude for hours at a time.
it is amazing to me that people always have to blame others for the problems that they are having. i have many toons on different servers and have done mostly randoms of all my toons. do the wait times suck sure, but why is blizzard expected to have all the bugs worked out this very second. there was the beta but it wasnt out for every player, so there are things they will have had to wait for the launch to see how it is going to work. the expansion has only been live for a few months and i think things are going well. if i have a long que time i look to do other things. hell there are dailies and this new thing i think they just came out with they are called quests. if you have finished all the quests then hell you are the bomb. the other thing is if you are sick of waiting in LFD then talk to your guild. get a guild run going. and for those that say that the game is to hard, i wonder if you were the same ppl that were complaining that the game was to easy. if you think the game is to hard then try changing how you play the game. ask ppl what you can do to improve, read the forums do something to try and make yourself a better player. if you so all that and still cant figure it out well then leave and go find some other game that you can figure out.

I am not saying by any means that i am one of the greatest player to have ever logged on. I am still learning every day. but i am trying new things reading different tactics. and if i have to wait in the que then i find something to do.
I think the problem is that Blizzard setup the game to involve a lot of grind. You need to spend a lot of time doing quests, dailies, farming mats, etc, to get prepared for raids and heroics and other end-game content.

Doing that grind in a tank or healing spec is much more time-consuming than doing it as a dps. It's completely viable, but it takes longer. All of that solo content is designed mostly for a dps player. The mobs are typically all spread out far enough to be picked off one at a time, which makes it hard to grab up a bunch of them and aoe tank them down to take advantage of a proc spec for example.

Tanking and healing are group support roles. They just don't work very well for solo play. Given all the solo play that's required to grind out mats, rep, xp, gold, etc, it's no wonder that the majority of players embrace a dps spec and role.

Every tank and healer can easily and cheaply take a dps off-spec, and it doesn't take much gear to make soloing in that spec much more satisfying than soloing in your tank/heal spec - dual spec created a huge HUGE improvement to this issue, but it didn't make the problem go away. The way I see it, once you log all those hours getting accustomed to your dps spec while doing that solo grind, it kinda sticks, and that becomes what you enjoy out of familiarity.

On the flip side of that, I have a DK tank and paladin healer, because I enjoy every role. But in order to get those toons raid-ready now I need to go finish all the quests in the new cata zones, so I can get all the rep, and unlock important factions like Therazane and Wildhammer, which aren't available until you quest halfway through those zones' (aggravatingly linear) quest chains.

I enjoy those toons for tanking and healing, but I'm really not a fan of dps spec DK or ret spec paladin. The melee dps play style just doesn't do it for me. So I don't play them. It's not satisfying to quest in tank/heal spec, and I don't really like their dps specs, so my tank/healer get neglected (and dps queue times increase because I'm not queueing my tank/healer to help fill a group)

What could Blizzard do about it? Make dungeons more rewarding for everyone in terms of gold and rep.

If I could get all the rep and gold that I want by farming dungeons instead of solo daily quests, I would queue at least once per day as both tank and healer on those alts. Currently, I can't. They're both sub-par in heroics until I get them some rep gear which is going to involve unlocking at least 2 factions that are buried behind 100-quest-long linear quest chains in deepholm and twilight highlands, which I'm just not very interested in repeating, certainly not in tank or healer spec.

While I could do all of that stuff in a group, in order to be effective as a tank or healer outside of a dungeon, I'd have to find someone else who is on the same 2 quests as me somewhere in the middle of a 120-quest long linear quest chain in those 2 zones, and that's extremely unlikely. Plus try asking for help or just a group for fun for soloable quests and see what kind of answers you get. Most people say "pfft you can solo that"

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