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Not a bad idea! For all you idiots saying 'nothing can be done", here is an example of something that can be done.

While I appreciate the effort, the last thing this game needs is more fail vehicles.

I disagree here! There is alot they could do. They could make being a healer more enjoyable again, they could unnerf tanks agro holding abilities and more would go back to tanking.
They said both were too easy so they nerfed tanking & healing and now look at when we have!!!!!! Bright idea there Blizzard. So yes Blizzard can fix it since they broke it.

Your Wrath is showing.
LOL @ Bennett...

Great idea with the "Tankbot" and "Healbot" options...

While we're at it - why doesn't Blizzard create "DPSbots" so us tanks and healers don't have to run with morons like the whiny pally and the other complaining morons.

Better yet - make WoW a game where you don't even have to interact with people on the internet! Your perfect game is waiting - the MSNO (Massive Singleplayer Not Online) would just create players who loved and worshiped you - and they would whisper you about how amazing your DPS was on that last pull!

Yes, the MSNO (pronounced "M-Snow") is the reality you want, Vandalar!

Now, get off the forums and go play that, instead of clogging up the forums on THIS game with your stubborn attitude about how 12 million people aren't available to tank for YOU and that Blizzard should fix it.
02/03/2011 9:07 AMPosted by Vandalar
I work in manufacturing. We take great pains to design our product to be so easy that an idiot can figure it out. We made descriptive labels, we make user instruction booklets, etc that explain exactly how to use it.

Sometimes, despite our best effort, the customers just don't get it. They can't figure out how to use it or it just doesn't work.

Now, were I Blizzard, I would go to my 11 million paying customers and say "Sorry, that's the way it is. Suck it up."

Fortunately, we are not Blizzard. If something doesn't work for the vast majority of people, then we go back to the drawing board and figure out another solution that may work better. We don't simply say "Sorry, customer. We made it idiot proof and it's not our fault you don't know how to use it."

The LFD tool is currently unacceptable with 45 minute queue times. Saying "more people need to play tanks" is not a solution. I don't know what the solution is, but it's Blizzards JOB to come up with some kind of solution, not just say "Sorry, customer, suck it up!"

TLDR: Blizzard needs to fix the long wait times on LFD and not just say "play a tank if you don't like it!"

*edited the title to something more indicative of the topic.- Nethaera

So if you were a car manufacturer, and people were getting mad because they couldnt get to work fast enough because idiots on the road drive too slow .. then your saying you would do what exactly ?
02/03/2011 9:34 AMPosted by Vandalar

Getting into a guild where one of the few tanks announces that he is running a heroic and 7 DPS immediately say they want to go?

Yeah... MUCH better.

I wish I had this problem in my guild.
One way to get people into a dungeon quicker is to get them out quicker. People want 30 min heroics.

Still no incentive for me to run more than once.

MY suggestions for reducing the que time would be to shorten the dungeons as ive said, or make healers OP again, give them the ability once again to carry a group and heal through stupid.


Heroics should be HEROIC. Stick to normals if you suck that bad.

The healer is the backbone of any run. Put the run on a healers shoulders and he will gladly accept that honor and carry the group to success. Unless you totally change healing so it feels gimped and people dont like the changes and you dont give them the option of going back to the old style of healing and they say screw you and spec dps.

I don't even know what game you're playing. Good healers are loving Cata. Terrible healers are crying.

The point is not to get the healer or tank into a run he doesnt want to be in to help out everyone else, give them some special reward for doing something they dont want to be doing.

Once I max out on it, there is no more incentive. I'm maxed on JP, reputation, gold is negligible.

the point is how to get people enjoying tanking and healing again so that they WANT to be there. I would be there right now healing on both my toons but I do not like the changes they made to the healers so they both sit.

IF you give me the option of healing like i used to or healing in this new model, whichever one that i want to use, im guessing that just about all the people who quit healing would take it back up again.

Healing is fine, many people are enjoying it. Tanking is very fun.
02/03/2011 9:47 AMPosted by Draug
I've seen multiple solutions offered on the forums that could fix the queue issue.

Making instances 6 man instead of 5 man would DRASTICALLY reduce the queue times.

Making incentives for tanks to queue up?

There ARE things that Blizz can do.

I know that these all have downsides to them, but would they be worse than the 45 minute queue time?

make instances 6 man? humm...
You want Blizzard to redesign, rebalance, and retest all the dungeons in the game, including rebalancing character abilities (aka buffing and nerfing classes) to better accommodate 6 player groups JUST so that more 1 dps per tank will get into a dungeon... YEah sounds like an awful lot of effort for very little gain.

As far as offering incentives for tanks to queue. Well what would you suggest? More gold or points per run isn't going to be enough incentive for people to. The only real incentive that would work is one that could offer a shorter queue on the DPS characters. For example every time a player completes an instance in the LFD as either a tank or healer they get a "ticket." 5 tickets can be exchanged for a pass to the front of any queue on any of your characters. People would then tank and heal so that they could get shorter queues on their DPS characters.

Of course truth be told you are already doing what will help the queue time the most. IF everybody who wants shorter queue times simply tanked an instance once a night or once every couple nights then Queue times would plummet.

There are a few things I think you've not thought about; 1 dps per group is a lot. Assume there is 1000 groups running per battlegroup at any given time. That means 1000 more dps are getting into LFD (that number is just random, I'm sure its more, but only Blizzard would know the true numbers). Adding a single DPS could cut the queue times in half if not more in theory (again, only blizzard knows the numbers). Also Blizzard doesn't have too "retune" every instance. Much like they did with the raids in AQ40 and TotC, they can leave the current system in place and move to a 6 man dungeon setting for the next group of instances. If they wanted to retune; yes they would have to retune and retest the current 85 instances, but isn't things like this what the PTR and our 14.95 is for? I'll prob pick up tanking and get used to healing again, but until then I'd like a solution to my 45 min queue times just like everyone else.
He didn't ask about the roads. He asked about the drivers.
OP, to be blunt, you're an idiot.

The correct analogy to your field is an item that works perfectly well--but for certain aspects of functionality, requires several people to use effectively.

Consider, for example, that your product is a children's playground. A single user can play on the slides, swings, monkey bars, gliders, and many other aspects of the item without trouble.

However, it is not the fault of the manufacturer if a single person is unable to use the see-saw or pipe-telephone system. It is designed, purposefully, to require more than one person. It is not the role of the manufacturer to provide those additional people.

What Blizzard has done, in fact, is set up a light board by the see-saw. If any kids want to use the two-person apparatus, they can hit a button and a light goes on. When two lights are on, the kids know they can go use the see-saw and just meet there--without actually having to walk around the playground asking others about it.

It is not blizzard's fault that so many players care about nothing but big numbers and as little responsibility as possible. (Note that I did not say "none." DPS have to be more aware than in WotLK, but still not to the same extent as healers and tanks.) If there are 20 kids on the playground, but only one wants to play on the see-saw, s/he has to wait.

Edit: In short--the solution isn't to add bells and whistles to the see-saw. It's that the kid who wants to play on it should convince someone else to join him/her. So maybe, just maybe, if the community at large actually learned something about their classes, and put forward a reasonable effort themselves when they expect the same from 4 complete strangers, more tanks and healers would want to play--rather than, say, refusing to run heroics without at least 3-4 guildies, just so it isn't ridiculously painful.
Well they can take a page from guild wars and have an NPC be a tank or healer etc. This way you can do dungeons at your leisure. get gear you actually want and have a good set for raids. This could cut down the ninjas and the entitled players.
02/03/2011 10:05 AMPosted by Triiste

If someone bought a widget from your company and called to complain that it doesn't fit properly up their nose would you then design a nasaly-insertable widget?

Nothing Blizzard can do can change queue times.

I disagree here! There is alot they could do. They could make being a healer more enjoyable again, they could unnerf tanks agro holding abilities and more would go back to tanking.
They said both were too easy so they nerfed tanking & healing and now look at when we have!!!!!! Bright idea there Blizzard. So yes Blizzard can fix it since they broke it.

I don't quite agree, I agree there are plenty of ways to fix this issue, without it relying totally on class changes, but I am not saying that changes to tanks or healers do not need improvement cause I have many ideas no my mind that would make these roles way more enjoyable, but from my experience, long posts get no attention.

Usually ends up getting deleted while because of some error trying to preview it or whatever wasting my time, odds of getting noticed non worth it either, 8 views is not encouraging while the total flamer's, false title, personal rant, troll, controversial topic gets 22 pages and a blue post of feedback

For one not everybody wants an immediate solution we just want to know that one is in the process or many or something soothing to the players' weary souls.
So, based on my point of view, here's a potential solution:

A new version of the heroic dungeons that drop no loot. The four other players are NPC's in 337 iLvl gear. The DPS will respond to marks to do cc and focus fire. The healer will keep me up and provide group healing on unavoidable damage. The group will engage when I issue a ready check.

There. Now tanks would be able to learn instances in a stress free environment so they won't have to worry about learning mechanics/pulls while trying to lead a group of semi-hostile players.

With the articifial intelligence that exists in other games currently I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't create NPCs capable of performing the tasks of tanks healers or dps.

The thing is, if everyone is doing their job then the encounters aren't hard. Especially for healers. The main thing is learning where to stand and when to jump (metaphorically)

I would love it if they implented something like this. Learning these encounters with people breathing down your neck is terrible.
02/03/2011 9:55 AMPosted by Delatt
While the basic problem is the shortage of tanks, there are ways to incent tanks to run more randoms. Also, simply saying "queues are 45 minutes and that's just the way it is" ignores the fact that queues were half as long in wrath.

Something happened to make queue times increase, and a review of those factors would provide ideas on how to reduce them times. For example, instances were significantly shorter, the reward for doing more than one was worth the time spent (EoH for epic gems), and there was almost no risk of a repair bill from a wipe.

I have a few suggestions:

Reduce the amount of trash significantly to shorten the instances.

Let tanks earn VP via randoms for their alts. For example, complete a 2nd random and choose an alt to send the VP to, once per day per alt.

Have an npc before each boss that gives free repairs, or one at the end of the instance.

Give tanks a large gold reward at instance completion, or a token for some form of rep, or a choice of a gem, or anything to make the hour spent worth more than if you had spent the hour farming or doing dailies.

The above are all great ideas but even if they added them all and gave me 10-ten us dollars for every heroic I tank on my alt for pugs I would still refuse.........hugs not pugs i say.
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

I think Vandalar may end up on my podcast this week as the winner of the "Biggest Idiot" contest...

Blizzard - all Vandalar is asking is that you create mind control helmets that will change how many people decide to roll healers and tanks.

Is that so hard?

As he says: "its not impossible..."
It's understandable why people don't want to tank. When compared to the role of a DPS the responsibility is immense - there is so much more you need to pay attention to that just face rolling on the keyboard, and watching big numbers move around the screen until something dies. I'm not trying to insult anyone who plays DPS, I'm just speaking through experience here.

All throughout Wrath I played Ret, not willing to try new things through lack of confidence and an abundance of laziness. With the release of Cata however I decided to challenge myself and see how I fare as a Prot Paladin.

I took the time to get a basic understanding of what to do in guild runs. Outside of guild however, I am still very new to tanking. LFD isn't somewhere that I want to be right now, here's why.

1. Tanks have to know each and every strat in the game that they're going to come across - very few of the fights in Cata are Tank'n'spanks. This requires a large amount of time scouring sources outside of the game. Not everyone has the time to do so. If one or two of the DPS doesn't know the strat it's no big deal and you can probably pull if off if they're paying attention and quick learners.

2. Not only do you have to know you're own class, but you have to know others as well. CCs are back, which I welcome entirely, however someone must take charge in a LFD group if you're expecting progress. Since the tank is the one who is most often going to be pulling mobs the general understanding is that the tank be the leader and mark targets for CC. Knowing what each class is capable of is paramount here since I have yet to see a DPS take the initiative and mark their own target for CC.

3. Don't screw up. Individuals within LFD are tremendously unforgiving. If you make one slip up as a tank and cause a wipe you're vote kicked out with the explanation being "Fail" or something more derogatory. Even if the tank isn't the one at fault - eg: dps breaking CCs, not being healed, ect... The blame game starts flying around and more often than not the two people in the group who are going to get slammed are the healer and tank.

It's not an environment I want to be in and have resigned from using the dungeon finder for those reasons. Is this Blizzards fault? Absolutely. Tanks (and healers) are forced into the role of responsibility which requires large amounts of time dedicated to research out of game, with zero respect when mistakes are made.
Queue times went up because when the dungeon tool was introduced, Wrath heroics were incredibly laughable and DPS were tanking them. You effectively had a bunch more tanks.

With Cataclysm heroics, that's just not possible. Not yet anyway, and that slashed the number of potential tanks down significantly. Not to mention the increased baseline challenge (That I whole-heartedly support) presented by these dungeons, and many So-So to poorly skilled tanks stopped tanking. It sucks, but its true.

If you start offering special rewards to tanks, you're going to get a bunch of people trying to take advantage of that who won't tank well or what have you. Guess what the forum whining will be then? Regardless, it'd have to be additional VP to get me into more than 1 a day. They are shortening the trash up some, and that's great. I really hope they don't do something to make them super easy like Wrath, but I will concede that'd solve the queue problem a bit since the skill level for tanking would drop.

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