"Raid or Die" has killed WoW.

General Discussion
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01/01/2016 12:24 PMPosted by Adreilareith
Read half the sentence of the rant and ResidentSleeper


FailFish

ResidentSleeper indeed
ITT: OP gets eviscerated and rekt
Raid or Die is better than PvP or Die. Consider that LoL has 67 million players and at one point CoD had 50 million players. WoW PvP is a fail within a fail. Fail-ception.
01/04/2016 11:40 AMPosted by Jurkchikin
ITT: OP gets eviscerated and rekt


Really? I'm +142 right now. What are you?
01/04/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Khaldara
I think you pretty much nailed it. The game hasn't truly been "Raid or Die" since the end of TBC. It's gotten progressively more accessible to everybody ever since they deconstructed the biggest wall to equal accessibility to content: Attunements. If you want to make a "Raid or Die" statement without looking kind of stupid in the process, it generally has to pertain to the period of time before that happened. Particularly in Vanilla, as it truly was "Raid or Die" once you got your Tier 0/Dungeon set, for a good long while there were no battlegrounds, no heroics, no justice points and welfare gear, you maybe had open world PvP (ganking) on PvP servers to amuse yourself with, but aside from that you raided, leveled an alt, or quit.


Everybody being able to raid is not in any way, shape, or form at odds with "raid or die." I don't know why you'd even think that.
01/04/2016 11:48 AMPosted by Arcanax
01/04/2016 11:40 AMPosted by Jurkchikin
ITT: OP gets eviscerated and rekt


Really? I'm +142 right now. What are you?


Congratulations. You have won over the General Discussion whiners, not anyone who was correctly pointing out a giant hole in your argument. It doesn't take much to convince a person who lacks a developed forebrain.
01/01/2016 11:41 AMPosted by Pharsalus
01/01/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Kromkosh
They must have removed PvP when I wasn't looking.


You got Ashran. I'm sure you're satisfied with that.

@ OP -

01/01/2016 11:03 AMPosted by Arcanax
What were the current devs thinking with this content design?


Here's a long answer. First off, remember this name 'Furor Planedefiler' (In EQ you could have a surname)

************************************
For a long time in EQ, from roughly mid-Velious running up to the Gates of Discord launch, one of the worst things about EQ was Furor Planedefiler. His influence spread across all aspects of the game, and the only people to benefit from his influence were people in bleeding edge guilds, and I think sometimes they would even argue against that.

Due to the high profile and visibility of Fires of Heaven's site, and his presence on the board, he had undue influence over development resources, development decisions and game design for being just a player. Aveneyer linked his rant about the design of P1 of Plane of Time below. What you might not realize, that was EVERY !@#$ING WEEK from Furor. I exaggerate, but only slightly. It was a vicious cycle that ran something like this: FoH tears though raid content > Furor goes to the EQ forums complaining that they've went through all the raid content, demanding more or he's taking his guild and millions of fans to Dark Age of Camelot, Horizons, Asheron's Call or whatever the %^-* failed MMO was launching or about to launch > Frantic EQ management pulls development from working on things that actually need worked on to push the raid content Furor demands. After this step, there's a few ways that things can go. Sometimes the content works correctly and Fires of Heaven tear through it, farm everything they want, and then we go back to the Furor on the boards step. Sometimes the content is broken because it didn't have ample testing time, and we're back to the Furor on the boards step. Every once in a while, there's an elaborate keying/flagging sequence designed to slow FoH the !@#$ down so that the devs have breathing time, and we're back to the Furor on the boards step, this time crying because flagging is taking way too long and/or drops are too rare (hi, Maiden's Eye Lucid Shard).

Meanwhile, if you want to look at itemization as the left hand and design as the right hand, they have no idea what the other hand is doing. Itemization is creating group content gear that's a slight incremental increase and raid gear that has a significantly larger increase. Design is seeing that players in Beta aren't having a hard time with mobs, so the answer for them is to increase mob ac, hit points and/or base damage, without taking into account that the people in Beta that are the loudest and most outspoken about content difficulty are testing it in their raid gear, and aren't a good representative of what people in group gear are wearing. Itemization gets reports back from development that players are doing okay in gear that was similar to what they were playing in the prior expansion, and group gear gets little to no increase, while raid gear is scaling up because they're telling them that Ssra is intended to be xx much more difficult than Sleeper's Tomb, so the dropped gear needs to reflect that.

Meanwhile, Furor's Supremacy Of The Warrior Tank dogma led directly to the dominance of the Holy Trinity for a long time. If Furor happened to see a knight, or - god forbid - a ranger surviving an encounter with an even con mob with nothing but a druid or shaman for a healer, off to the boards to complain some more or organize a warrior protest.

I was glad to see him go when he finally left, and the only thing that upsets me about him leaving was that it took so long for itemization to get their heads of their asses and make group gear viable for normal gameplay.

************************

Now, I know what you're thinking, 'Hey, he was just a dedicated Raidleader wanting more out of the game'.

Wait, it gets better.

**************************

003-05-09 18:50:26 - Furor Planedefiler

You have 14 Days. If after that time the Plane is not properly tuned, I am deleting my characters, and cancelling all of my accounts. The rest of my guild will follow suit, as will several other guilds and people that play Everquest.

To be brief, I did not work my a44 off, jumping through your idiotic hoops with my friends and guildmates, so I could go to a zone where only groups of 18 could enjoy the content. EVEN if past these initial moronic events I can finally get my entire guild in to raid with me, F&^K YOU GUYS. Seriously, F&^K YOU.

I cannot believe this... right now I'm just so pissed off. I am sitting here in the Plane of Time, and 3/4 of my guild is just sitting around while a group of 18 is repeatedly trying to beat one of the mini ring encounters. Don't you people have ANY F&^KING DECENCY? SMEDLEY WHY DON'T YOU STOP COUNTING YOUR MONEY AND START ISSUING ORDERS?

The tragic irony of creating the ultimate c0c*block encounter in the form of the Rathe which requires 80 people to defeat and then to limit encounters in the Plane of Time to 18.
14 Days.... after that this site will change from the most popular EQ fan site on the internet to the most popular World of Warcraft fan site on the internet. I'm done playing ball with you useless f&^kers... it's my turn.

*******************

Please note that much of Furor's rants confirm the first part of this response.

So who is Furor Planedefiler? I'm glad you asked.

Alex was once the leader of Fires of Heaven, a famous Everquest guild. His character, Kalaran, was the first Level 50 in Everquest. He was known by the community as "Furor Planedefiler"

Which Alex? I'm glad you asked.

Alex Afrasiabi aka Valnoth is the Creative Director for World of Warcraft.

And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, you know the rest of the story.


That information, if accurate, is...disturbing
I truly only read these to find the General Discussion posts that the Hivemind has downvoted. They are usually the only ones with any logic.
01/04/2016 11:48 AMPosted by Arcanax
...

Really? I'm +142 right now. What are you?


Congratulations. You have won over the General Discussion whiners, not anyone with half a brain who was pointing out a giant hole in your argument. It doesn't take much to convince a person who lacks a developed forebrain.


Keep going down with the ship, Buddy.
01/04/2016 11:57 AMPosted by Jurkchikin
I truly only read these to find the General Discussion posts that the Hivemind has downvoted. They are usually the only ones with any logic.


What a rebel you are. Keep fighting the power!
01/01/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Kromkosh
They must have removed PvP when I wasn't looking.


They're trying, it's called Ashran and bots.
01/04/2016 11:54 AMPosted by Jurkchikin
Congratulations. You have won over the General Discussion whiners, not anyone who was correctly pointing out a giant hole in your argument. It doesn't take much to convince a person who lacks a developed forebrain.


I haven't read the whole thread, but the two basic counterarguments seem to be "there is literally at least 1 thing other than raiding to do at level cap, so you're wrong," which is ridiculous because the statement isn't meant to be taken literally in the first place, and "there's just no content period," which isn't true because there are still plenty nice raids and that still supports the OP's complaint.
No no no. Raid finder, garrisons, Dungeon finder, world flying and many other "utilities" killed end game content. No one does !@#$ anymore other than que and afk.
I don't raid, and therefore don't need better gear for what I do.

win/win?
01/01/2016 12:02 PMPosted by Phlynch
01/01/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Kromkosh
They must have removed PvP when I wasn't looking.

PvP is not fun content for many people. PvP or die is almost as bad as Raid or die.

Raid or PvP or die is even worse. Because you have "options" but none of them are enjoyable.


I couldn't agree more. I felt that way at the end of Lich. So I guess I need to get over it and just do pvp but how much fun can it be fighting all the time. Sometimes, I want to just sit back and chat with people, and do fun things that don't require raiding or PvP. And another thing while I'm at it, couldn't they make old content relevant again? I'm not talking about a week out of the month where you get to do timewalking dungeons but actually where you make the old conent relevant again. Like new exotic recipes would call for you to farm old content. Make old cities imporant again, not just during timewalking or whatever it is called. I would also like to see some type of game honor system. Where people that actually help people within could be rewarded. Like the nice people who take time out of their game play to help newbies, etc. Something that says he you are an honorable person in the wow community. Here is a little something. And could we get some achievements that take time to get but don't require you to murder people and or animals. You know like the achievement you took away where you traveled the world of wow reading books. That was such a fun achievement to get, many a hours walking around trying to find those books. <sigh> I do hope this makes sense to someone because this current wow is boring for non-raiders. Though I just learned how to transmog so that is something interesting.
01/04/2016 12:00 PMPosted by Syresia
and "there's just no content period," which isn't true because there are still plenty nice raids and that still supports the OP's complaint.


There's less raid content than there was in MoP, and MoP had a bunch of non-raid content - so I don't think that supports OP's premise of raid content precluding everything else. Something happened between MoP and WoD, and that thing wasn't "let's make more raids this time."

So not to be a broken record, but it makes a lot more sense to guess that the dev resources that normally go into non-raid content went into garrisons (which, regardless of their success/lack thereof, plainly ate up a lot of resources).
01/04/2016 02:21 PMPosted by Tetsubin
There's less raid content than there was in MoP, and MoP had a bunch of non-raid content - so I don't think that supports OP's premise of raid content precluding everything else. Something happened between MoP and WoD, and that thing wasn't "let's make more raids this time."

So not to be a broken record, but it makes a lot more sense to guess that the dev resources that normally go into non-raid content went into garrisons (which, regardless of their success/lack thereof, plainly ate up a lot of resources).


I mean, I've already mentioned they're obviously capable of doing both because of MoP. I don't really think that's a challenge to the current state of the game being raid or run out of things to do within a week or so.
01/01/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Cihys
I don't raid and haven't raided current content since WOTLK.

I always have more to do than time to do it.


I just wanted to say that your character is so cute. /love
01/01/2016 11:41 AMPosted by Pharsalus
01/01/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Kromkosh
They must have removed PvP when I wasn't looking.


You got Ashran. I'm sure you're satisfied with that.

@ OP -

01/01/2016 11:03 AMPosted by Arcanax
What were the current devs thinking with this content design?


Here's a long answer. First off, remember this name 'Furor Planedefiler' (In EQ you could have a surname)

************************************
For a long time in EQ, from roughly mid-Velious running up to the Gates of Discord launch, one of the worst things about EQ was Furor Planedefiler. His influence spread across all aspects of the game, and the only people to benefit from his influence were people in bleeding edge guilds, and I think sometimes they would even argue against that.

Due to the high profile and visibility of Fires of Heaven's site, and his presence on the board, he had undue influence over development resources, development decisions and game design for being just a player. Aveneyer linked his rant about the design of P1 of Plane of Time below. What you might not realize, that was EVERY !@#$ING WEEK from Furor. I exaggerate, but only slightly. It was a vicious cycle that ran something like this: FoH tears though raid content > Furor goes to the EQ forums complaining that they've went through all the raid content, demanding more or he's taking his guild and millions of fans to Dark Age of Camelot, Horizons, Asheron's Call or whatever the %^-* failed MMO was launching or about to launch > Frantic EQ management pulls development from working on things that actually need worked on to push the raid content Furor demands. After this step, there's a few ways that things can go. Sometimes the content works correctly and Fires of Heaven tear through it, farm everything they want, and then we go back to the Furor on the boards step. Sometimes the content is broken because it didn't have ample testing time, and we're back to the Furor on the boards step. Every once in a while, there's an elaborate keying/flagging sequence designed to slow FoH the !@#$ down so that the devs have breathing time, and we're back to the Furor on the boards step, this time crying because flagging is taking way too long and/or drops are too rare (hi, Maiden's Eye Lucid Shard).

Meanwhile, if you want to look at itemization as the left hand and design as the right hand, they have no idea what the other hand is doing. Itemization is creating group content gear that's a slight incremental increase and raid gear that has a significantly larger increase. Design is seeing that players in Beta aren't having a hard time with mobs, so the answer for them is to increase mob ac, hit points and/or base damage, without taking into account that the people in Beta that are the loudest and most outspoken about content difficulty are testing it in their raid gear, and aren't a good representative of what people in group gear are wearing. Itemization gets reports back from development that players are doing okay in gear that was similar to what they were playing in the prior expansion, and group gear gets little to no increase, while raid gear is scaling up because they're telling them that Ssra is intended to be xx much more difficult than Sleeper's Tomb, so the dropped gear needs to reflect that.

Meanwhile, Furor's Supremacy Of The Warrior Tank dogma led directly to the dominance of the Holy Trinity for a long time. If Furor happened to see a knight, or - god forbid - a ranger surviving an encounter with an even con mob with nothing but a druid or shaman for a healer, off to the boards to complain some more or organize a warrior protest.

I was glad to see him go when he finally left, and the only thing that upsets me about him leaving was that it took so long for itemization to get their heads of their asses and make group gear viable for normal gameplay.

************************

Now, I know what you're thinking, 'Hey, he was just a dedicated Raidleader wanting more out of the game'.

Wait, it gets better.

**************************

003-05-09 18:50:26 - Furor Planedefiler

You have 14 Days. If after that time the Plane is not properly tuned, I am deleting my characters, and cancelling all of my accounts. The rest of my guild will follow suit, as will several other guilds and people that play Everquest.

To be brief, I did not work my a44 off, jumping through your idiotic hoops with my friends and guildmates, so I could go to a zone where only groups of 18 could enjoy the content. EVEN if past these initial moronic events I can finally get my entire guild in to raid with me, F&^K YOU GUYS. Seriously, F&^K YOU.

I cannot believe this... right now I'm just so pissed off. I am sitting here in the Plane of Time, and 3/4 of my guild is just sitting around while a group of 18 is repeatedly trying to beat one of the mini ring encounters. Don't you people have ANY F&^KING DECENCY? SMEDLEY WHY DON'T YOU STOP COUNTING YOUR MONEY AND START ISSUING ORDERS?

The tragic irony of creating the ultimate c0c*block encounter in the form of the Rathe which requires 80 people to defeat and then to limit encounters in the Plane of Time to 18.
14 Days.... after that this site will change from the most popular EQ fan site on the internet to the most popular World of Warcraft fan site on the internet. I'm done playing ball with you useless f&^kers... it's my turn.

*******************

Please note that much of Furor's rants confirm the first part of this response.

So who is Furor Planedefiler? I'm glad you asked.

Alex was once the leader of Fires of Heaven, a famous Everquest guild. His character, Kalaran, was the first Level 50 in Everquest. He was known by the community as "Furor Planedefiler"

Which Alex? I'm glad you asked.

Alex Afrasiabi aka Valnoth is the Creative Director for World of Warcraft.

And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, you know the rest of the story.


That is FANTASTIC.
I like trains.

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