The Nature of Canon

Story Forum
04/15/2016 12:17 AMPosted by Denona
But you see them yelling at eachother and even fighting in a video IN GAME!

Kind of shuts down your theory


No it doesn't.

The fact they were both in Vashjír doesn't in any way harm my theory. They can't have both killed Lady Sira'kess, can't have both worked with Erunak to kill Twilight's Hammer cultists, they can't have both gone into Throne of Tides and covered the heroes' rear as they cleared the dungeon, becuase they are not present for both Alliance and Horde players.

You could say they worked together through the whole zone, that they both helped Erunak and both killed Sira'kess... but then that's a cop-out. A cheap answer. It means us players aren't actually experiencing the story, we're playing a non-canon one. And that's boring.

The only way Vashj'ir can work is if there are two seperate Azeroths; an Alliance one and a Horde one. The two versions cannot co-exist.

It's like what I said with Baros. He was killed by Azuka in the Alliance story, but he's still going to be dead in the Horde story by some other means.
04/15/2016 12:45 AMPosted by Ximothy
The only way Vashj'ir can work is if there are two seperate Azeroths; an Alliance one and a Horde one. The two versions cannot co-exist.


And yet they must because both Taylor and Nazgrim both get promoted and both make references regardless of what faction you are from.

You're grasping at straws with a very loose grip. Just saying
04/15/2016 02:49 AMPosted by Denona
And yet they must because both Taylor and Nazgrim both get promoted and both make references regardless of what faction you are from.

You're grasping at straws with a very loose grip. Just saying


But they can't exist in the same story because they literally do the same thing. Including killing the same named NPCs.

They were both in Vashj'ir and both got promoted for it, but they literally can't have both done what they did in WoW. Hence, a seperate Alliance and Horde Story for players. For Alliance players, Taylor did that stuff, for Horde players, Nazgrim did that stuff. Two seperate stories.

What ''straws'' am I grasping at exactly? Nothing you've said has in any way caused me to rethink my position. In fact you bringing up Vashj'ir really only reinforced my thought.
04/15/2016 02:55 AMPosted by Ximothy
04/15/2016 02:49 AMPosted by Denona
And yet they must because both Taylor and Nazgrim both get promoted and both make references regardless of what faction you are from.

You're grasping at straws with a very loose grip. Just saying


But they can't exist in the same story because they literally do the same thing. Including killing the same named NPCs.

They were both in Vashj'ir and both got promoted for it, but they literally can't have both done what they did in WoW. Hence, a seperate Alliance and Horde Story for players. For Alliance players, Taylor did that stuff, for Horde players, Nazgrim did that stuff. Two seperate stories.

What ''straws'' am I grasping at exactly? Nothing you've said has in any way caused me to rethink my position. In fact you bringing up Vashj'ir really only reinforced my thought.


http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Admiral_Taylor#Horde

"We've faced off on the field of battle so many times. Vashj'ir... the Jade Forest.. Lion's Landing... I am glad I could end my journey with such a worthy adversary."

Thats for the horde side completion text when you free Taylor from his garrison.

For your theory to exist, Taylor and the horde PC never would've met since the horde PC's storyline, it was Nazgrim who was in Vashj'ir, not Taylor.

04/15/2016 02:55 AMPosted by Ximothy
For Alliance players, Taylor did that stuff, for Horde players, Nazgrim did that stuff. Two seperate stories.


But here he is, making references to that fact. Even calling the horde PC a worthy adversary. Contradicting your theory.

I think this is good enough to make you change your position.
04/15/2016 03:00 AMPosted by Denona
I think this is good enough to make you change your position.


No actually it doesn't.

Whether or not Taylor and Nazgrim were both in Vashjír has never been one of my points. They both were in Vashj'ir, heck you even see the opposite faction's NPC at one point in Vashj'ir when helping the slaves escape. can't do anything with them, not even attack, but you see them.

Plus Taylor and Nazgrim have some off screen encounter since they know each other.

But that doesn't change the fact that Taylor and Nazgrim cannot do the same actions, both send you to kill the same NPC, both kill the same priestess in the final battle. These things cannot both happen in the same story.

In the Alliance version of the story, Taylor sends you to kill Idra'kess, Taylor one shots the Naga Priestess, Taylor heads into Throne of Tides and sends you to rescue Erunak.

In the Horde version of the story, Nazgrim sends you to kill Idra'kess, Nazgrim one shots the Naga Priestess, Nazgrim heads into the Throne of Times and sends you to rescue Erunak.

They can't both exist in the same story, they conflict with one another. Thus, one Horde story and one Alliance story.
04/15/2016 03:08 AMPosted by Ximothy
They can't both exist in the same story, they conflict with one another. Thus, one Horde story and one Alliance story.


And yet I have a quote from Taylor referencing that the two met in Vashj'ir.

What you are saying is that they never could have met. Because for the horde PC, you only see Nazgrim doing all the stuff that both of them would do.

Like I said, you are grasping at straws and you continue to change your position.

04/15/2016 03:08 AMPosted by Ximothy
heck you even see the opposite faction's NPC at one point in Vashj'ir when helping the slaves escape. can't do anything with them, not even attack, but you see them.


Exactly the point, you never interact with them. So how can Taylor make a reference about Vashj'ir to the horde PC if the two never actually formally interacted with each other?

04/15/2016 12:45 AMPosted by Ximothy
You could say they worked together through the whole zone, that they both helped Erunak and both killed Sira'kess... but then that's a cop-out. A cheap answer. It means us players aren't actually experiencing the story, we're playing a non-canon one. And that's boring.


Thats your opinion, but this seems to be the most likely scenario. Both of Taylor and Nazgrim had a common enemy.

Have you played Command and Conquer Tiberian sun: Firestorm? Both NOD and GDI ally with eachother to defeat CABAL, but they go after different targets, then they work together as a unified force against CABAL's main base. same thing can happen here, Horde go after X, alliance go after Y, then the two work together and try and stop Naz'jar. This way, you still have a somewhat canon individual storyline, and Taylor is able to formally interact with the horde PC, explaining the reference he makes at the end of his Garrison chain in Spires
What you are saying is that they never could have met


I have literally never said that. I said that they are both in Vashj'ir, and that Nazgrim and Taylor clearly had a meeting we weren't privvy too.

Like I said, you are grasping at straws and you continue to change your position.


What change?

My position as always been; Nazgrim and Taylor cannot do the same actions, kill the same people and have the same people killed. It's literally a plot hole unless there's two seperate stories.

Exactly the point, you never interact with them. So how can Taylor make a reference about Vashj'ir to the horde PC if the two never actually formally interacted with each other?


Wait hold on now I'm confused.

You're saying neither version of Vashj'ir is canon, but some unplayable version that we, the players, can't actually experience? An unplayable version that includes Nazgrim and Taylor working together that we, the players, cannot experience ourselves?

That's better how?

04/15/2016 03:15 AMPosted by Denona
Have you played Command and Conquer Tiberian sun: Firestorm? Both NOD and GDI ally with eachother to defeat CABAL, but they go after different targets, then they work together as a unified force against CABAL's main base. same thing can happen here, Horde go after X, alliance go after Y, then the two work together and try and stop Naz'jar. This way, you still have a somewhat canon individual storyline, and Taylor is able to formally interact with the horde PC, explaining the reference he makes at the end of his Garrison chain in Spires


So the versions the players play isn't canon?
04/15/2016 03:31 AMPosted by Ximothy
I have literally never said that. I said that they are both in Vashj'ir, and that Nazgrim and Taylor clearly had a meeting we weren't privvy too.


I'm not talking about Nazgrim and Taylor, i'm talking about Taylor and the horde PC, if you ever bothered to read it

04/15/2016 03:31 AMPosted by Ximothy
Wait hold on now I'm confused.

You're saying neither version of Vashj'ir is canon, but some unplayable version that we, the players, can't actually experience? An unplayable version that includes Nazgrim and Taylor working together that we, the players, cannot experience ourselves?


Not really. Take the case with ToT. Its implied the horde deal with the lower area, and stop at the DA, the alliance go after Lei Shen, due to Jaina's staff quest.

Both sides are canon in their own right. In this case, the horde go kill some targets, the alliance kill the other, then work alongside each other at the finale. Not that hard of a concept to understand.

At the end of the day, the horde PC and Taylor had to have met at some time in Vashj'ir. As he makes a reference to it in the quote I linked before
I'm not talking about Nazgrim and Taylor, i'm talking about Taylor and the horde PC, if you ever bothered to read it


But I was referring to Nazgrim and Taylor, then you quoted that sentence and stated about whether I thought they never met so I assumed you were still referring to Nazgrim and Taylor. I wasn't aware that particular quote was referring to the players and Taylor.
04/15/2016 03:40 AMPosted by Denona
At the end of the day, the horde PC and Taylor had to have met at some time in Vashj'ir. As he makes a reference to it in the quote I linked before


As for the players and Taylor, the quote we're talking about actually says we fought Taylor in Vashj'ir;

We've faced off on the field of battle so many times. Vashj'ir... the Jade Forest... Lion's Landing...


So when we fought Taylor in Vashj'ir I don't know, but it certainly didn't happen in either version. Perhaps referring to the fact we were heading to Vashj'ir to fight each other? That I don't know.

04/15/2016 03:40 AMPosted by Denona
Not really. Take the case with ToT. Its implied the horde deal with the lower area, and stop at the DA, the alliance go after Lei Shen, due to Jaina's staff quest.


But that can't apply to everywhere across World of Warcraft. Even if it could and probably does apply to Throne of Thunder, it can't work elsewhere.

Both the Sunreavers Onslaught and Kirin Tor Offensive can't have both taken down the Wall, sabotaged the ship and took over the mines.

Azuka can't have stolen the heart from both Lunarfall and Frostwall.

Both the Alliance and Horde can't have both won the Gunship battle in Icecrown.

The only real options for World of Warcraft is that were are two seperate World of Warcraft, one for the Alliance's players who do all of the Alliance exclusive things that conflict with Horde things, and one for the Horde players who do all the Horde exclusive things that conflict with Alliance things.

That or almost everything that as a seperate Alliance and Horde version has some unplayable, canon version which would mean us players aren't actually playing the story, we're playing a different version of the warcraft universe.
So when we fought Taylor in Vashj'ir I don't know, but it certainly didn't happen in either version. Perhaps referring to the fact we were heading to Vashj'ir to fight each other? That I don't know.


And thats the point

He makes it clear that the horde PC fights him, yet you never actually encounter him in the horde side of the story arc.

Either it was a mistake on blizzard, or both sides are canon in their own right. Again using the example I made earlier with C&C TS:F

04/15/2016 03:53 AMPosted by Ximothy
That or almost everything that as a seperate Alliance and Horde version has some unplayable, canon version which would mean us players aren't actually playing the story, we're playing a different version of the warcraft universe.


This tends to be the main way to tell story lines, like Varian and Onyxia for example
04/15/2016 04:01 AMPosted by Denona
And thats the point

He makes it clear that the horde PC fights him, yet you never actually encounter him in the horde side of the story arc.

Either it was a mistake on blizzard, or both sides are canon in their own right. Again using the example I made earlier with C&C TS:F


I thought your point was that Taylor and Nazgrim worked together, hense the comparison to C&C TS:F.

Taylor's comment can just be about being on opossing sides. He never says we actually met him in Vashj'ir, we didn't meet him in Jade Forest or Lion's Landing either but he still mentions facing off there.

Unless there's again another, unplayable version of Jade Forest and Lion's Landing we don't get to actually play in game.

04/15/2016 04:01 AMPosted by Denona
This tends to be the main way to tell story lines, like Varian and Onyxia for example


I'd say it's different with Onyxia because there's a media clearly showing the canon event.

What you are suggesting with Vasnj'ir means the version of Vashj'ir we play is non-canon, while we have no access to a ''canon'' version of the events, thus why I am drawing issue with your idea.
Canon is important when you are trying to establish a world. That is your world's history. You don't take actual history and say "Actually Robert Redford was the first president of the United States", because it is something that has already happened. A continuation of the story and expansion on the created universe is why canon is important.
Unless there's again another, unplayable version of Jade Forest and Lion's Landing we don't get to actually play in game.


Probably is. in terms of the overall story line, having the PC as part of actual lore outside of nameless soldier borders on Mary Sue'ness, and we all know how some people on this forum respond to Mary Sue's.....

WoW by as story line perspective, is second person. your character may not exist in the overall plot, but you get to experience it like its your own story arc

Much like how you can name your rival and yourself anything you want in gen 1 pokemon, but come gen 2. They have generic names like Red and Blue
Once again I have to say...contradicting something that was never stated in lore but was in people's headcanon, is NOT a retcon.

The entire chronicles book only has 1 actual retcon in it. And that was Aegynn's relationship with Nielas Aran.
04/15/2016 12:45 AMPosted by Ximothy
A cheap answer. It means us players aren't actually experiencing the story, we're playing a non-canon one. And that's boring.


Every time we down Onyxia, or any time we down a raid boss for the second time, we are playing in a non-canon story. Every time we die and run back from the graveyard too, unless you think our characters immortality is actually supposed to be canon.
04/16/2016 12:58 PMPosted by Vralok
The entire chronicles book only has 1 actual retcon in it. And that was Aegynn's relationship with Nielas Aran.


2 really

The 2nd is the number of old gods on Azeroth down from 5 to 4.

Also Metzen did say N'zoth was never imprisoned, but in Chronicles, it did. (but this one is pretty minor)
My two cents:
I definitely don't view canon as a simple "is"/"isn't" conundrum. Not with something as complex as WoW. There are many things Blizzard hasn't addressed fully yet. Generally minor things where information was left omitted and/or things are left up to interpretation.
04/16/2016 03:30 PMPosted by Denona
04/16/2016 12:58 PMPosted by Vralok
The entire chronicles book only has 1 actual retcon in it. And that was Aegynn's relationship with Nielas Aran.


2 really

The 2nd is the number of old gods on Azeroth down from 5 to 4.

Also Metzen did say N'zoth was never imprisoned, but in Chronicles, it did. (but this one is pretty minor)


There are others. For instance ,the post-Draenei Sargaeras corruption story had him corrupted by the Nathrezm and going on the Crusade because they snapped his mind and made him think that evil was infinite and fighting against it was futility. Now he imprisoned them (like he did back when it was the eredar who corrupted him) after cleaving the Old-God infected titan-world he discovered, and he made a "reasoned" decision to free them and form the Burning Crusade when he couldn't find another solution.
04/17/2016 10:08 AMPosted by Scryll
04/16/2016 03:30 PMPosted by Denona
...

2 really

The 2nd is the number of old gods on Azeroth down from 5 to 4.

Also Metzen did say N'zoth was never imprisoned, but in Chronicles, it did. (but this one is pretty minor)


There are others. For instance ,the post-Draenei Sargaeras corruption story had him corrupted by the Nathrezm and going on the Crusade because they snapped his mind and made him think that evil was infinite and fighting against it was futility. Now he imprisoned them (like he did back when it was the eredar who corrupted him) after cleaving the Old-God infected titan-world he discovered, and he made a "reasoned" decision to free them and form the Burning Crusade when he couldn't find another solution.


Nah, it was never outright stated that the Nathrezim corrupted Sargeras. People just assumed that once the Eredar story was changed back in BC. It was also never outright stated how many Old Gods there were. There were different in-universe sources that claimed there were 3, 4, or 5 Old Gods, but noone really knew for sure.
04/17/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Vralok
04/17/2016 10:08 AMPosted by Scryll
...

There are others. For instance ,the post-Draenei Sargaeras corruption story had him corrupted by the Nathrezm and going on the Crusade because they snapped his mind and made him think that evil was infinite and fighting against it was futility. Now he imprisoned them (like he did back when it was the eredar who corrupted him) after cleaving the Old-God infected titan-world he discovered, and he made a "reasoned" decision to free them and form the Burning Crusade when he couldn't find another solution.


Nah, it was never outright stated that the Nathrezim corrupted Sargeras.


It was, actually, by Loreology.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum