Mythic gear will be stronger than elite PvP

General Discussion
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05/25/2016 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
“raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.”


Yeah...*JUST* do that, everyone. G'head, easy peasy.

>_<


To be fair. The best PvPers and PvEers are often the same people :P

Having said that, 99% of players aren't them. Your sarcasm is 100% correct.
05/25/2016 02:42 PMPosted by Iseededpeple
Post Blizzcon we were told they were doing away with the have/have not system of pvp gearing.

It was replaced by a have/have not system.

Sounds like Blizzard to me.


Yep and they have added TWO ADDITIONAL have/have not systems as well: artifact progression and PvP honor talents.

All this will accomplish will be making it harder for new players to compete, and harder for established players to play their alts.

Me personally, I have 3 different rogues that I play right now. I have my main rogue, I have a 2nd rogue so that I can play with friends without tanking rating on my main rogue, and I have a 3rd rogue so that I can play with friends on the horde faction.

In Legion, if I have to keep my rating high on my main rogue to get the best gear, then it will be even more important for me to have an alt rogue when I want to play with less experienced friends. And it will be even more of a pain to do so because I will have to grind artifact power and pvp talents on each alt that I intend to play.

That's not even counting my other alts like druid, hunter, etc.
05/25/2016 12:33 PMPosted by Kaivax
Hey guys! Just want to correct the basis for this discussion.

Currently, what's going on with the ilvl for gear from rated PvP in Legion is: it's decided dynamically when it's rewarded to you, and that decision is based on your rating.

So while the lowest version of an item may be 870, it will have its ilvl increased to 880, 890, or 900 -- based on your rating.


Ahhhh so BIS gear is based on rating? Good luck keeping ratings sellers out of the game. WOW

If I have to get 2k or higher just for BIS when before all I had to do was rateds and arenas then I may not be doing Legion. This is a bad system that will encourage cheating and win trading. Do you even think before you guys come up with these ideas???
05/25/2016 02:13 PMPosted by Alexzandyr
I'm not entirely sure how the rating system is going to work, but wouldn't this put those who rush up in the lead for the entire season, and those who don't rush to 2.2k under them until next season?

Yes it would.
This is how it worked in TBC
This is how it worked in Wrath
This is how it worked until Blizzard realized giving a gear advantage to the top/first rated people was a bad Idea.

It seems 2 expansions later that lesson was forgotten.
05/25/2016 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.


I agree they deserve to be rewarded with better gear with the caveat that it should be in their chosen focus of gameplay. This is not a new concept in WoW. We have literally done this before where PvE items became better, and effectively mandatory, for PvP. It got so much pushback. Isn't that a huge reason PvP gear was given a higher item level in PvP in previous expansions, to reward the people who focused on pvp for their efforts?

It just seems weird to me, to go sink in countless hours into a specific playstyle(in this case we are talking PvP) and when I finally get rewarded with awesome gear I find out someone else is equally as powerful as me and they have never stepped foot into a PvP setting. That seems to immediately undermine the entire concept of player progression and gear as a direct indicator of power earned from a specific activity.

It dilutes the value to me and becomes frustrating. It feels like "why did I just do all that if I'm no more powerful than someone who doesn't do any PvP?" It destroys the incentive for me to try to get better because I have another avenue to obtain similar/better gear for the same activity. The easier path to same result will always be taken.

Bottom line is: with the decrease of power discrepancy(maximum of 10% from 800-900ilvl) it should not be a huge deal by the numbers. But it just seems backwards for an activity to not reward the best gear for that specific activity.

What could help is unique quest/reputation rewards that provide the best pvp items. Remember in classic when you would grind out alterac valley to get an Unstoppable Force because it was just so good in pvp? Id like to get back to that. Where pvp has unique rewards that are the best for pvp.
05/25/2016 02:35 PMPosted by Birubiru
Well ok, I can understand that, but what about the ilvl on unrated pvp gear being so low??


If you do not put the work in, you will receive inferior rewards. Players are not entitled to anything.

05/25/2016 02:35 PMPosted by Birubiru
What was all that talk about gear practically no longer matter in pvp?

100 Item levels in Legion is equivelant to 10 item levels in WOD. When you factor in that most players will be around ~870 item level, there will be a typical 1-2% difference (in comparison to 10% difference between S3 Honor Gear and Conq Gear). Gear has never mattered less than it will in Legion.

05/25/2016 02:41 PMPosted by Kushiela
...

So if you don't do RBGs nor arenas, sounds like you won't be doing random BGs either. That's the nail in my WoW coffin right there.


You can get 810 Item level gear from Random BGs in Legion. Rated BG gear starts at 870 which is a 6% difference.

Right now in WOD you get 700 Item Level gear from doing BGs. 710 Item level gear from Conq Gear.

Blizzard has said the difference between 800 and 900 ilvl is 10% in Legion, versus 10 Item Levels in WOD.

If anything, there is less reason to do arena/rated bgs in Legion since the gap is smaller.

If you still want the best gear, you will have to do Rated PVP -- the same as right now in WOD.


I got full Conquest gear from Random unrated BGs in 2 characters. Your turn.
05/25/2016 02:47 PMPosted by Shoegäzer
05/25/2016 02:42 PMPosted by Iseededpeple
Post Blizzcon we were told they were doing away with the have/have not system of pvp gearing.

It was replaced by a have/have not system.

Sounds like Blizzard to me.


Yep and they have added TWO ADDITIONAL have/have not systems as well: artifact progression and PvP honor talents.

All this will accomplish will be making it harder for new players to compete, and harder for established players to play their alts.

Me personally, I have 3 different rogues that I play right now. I have my main rogue, I have a 2nd rogue so that I can play with friends without tanking rating on my main rogue, and I have a 3rd rogue so that I can play with friends on the horde faction.

In Legion, if I have to keep my rating high on my main rogue to get the best gear, then it will be even more important for me to have an alt rogue when I want to play with less experienced friends. And it will be even more of a pain to do so because I will have to grind artifact power and pvp talents on each alt that I intend to play.

That's not even counting my other alts like druid, hunter, etc.


ITT: People don't want to work anything and feel entitled to have everything handed to them the second they ding 110.

05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Mystgun
I got full Conquest gear from Random unrated BGs in 2 characters. Your turn.

Bet it took you forever. If you want to play 500 unrated matches to get enough conq points for the season, be my guest.
100 Item levels in Legion is equivelant to 10 item levels in WOD. When you factor in that most players will be around ~870 item level, there will be a typical 1-2% difference (in comparison to 10% difference between S3 Honor Gear and Conq Gear). Gear has never mattered less than it will in Legion.


Yes, exactly. And yet the devs felt this 10% difference was too much, they said it was wrong and it would change.

And now they come and put almost 100 ilvl difference in gear so in the end the math turns out the same.
This is very contradictory.

The high rated players having an small gear advantage its fine by me, seems fair.
But what was said was that the gap between casual unrated pvp gear and high rated was going to be even smaller that it is now.
Enough for the rated players to look for gear improvements to push even higher ratings, but not enough for it to be an unfair fight "gear wise" with unrated pvpers.
And thats not what we are seeing;
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Lokki
05/25/2016 02:13 PMPosted by Alexzandyr
I'm not entirely sure how the rating system is going to work, but wouldn't this put those who rush up in the lead for the entire season, and those who don't rush to 2.2k under them until next season?

Yes it would.
This is how it worked in TBC
This is how it worked in Wrath
This is how it worked until Blizzard realized giving a gear advantage to the top/first rated people was a bad Idea.

It seems 2 expansions later that lesson was forgotten.


I know, man! Are there really so few of the old developers still working on WoW that no one remembers why this was a huge problem the first time it was tried?
05/25/2016 02:27 PMPosted by Iseededpeple
05/25/2016 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.


*Or pay RL money/game gold for carries. Or outright cheat.

But hey, thanks for the pet.


Good point IC. My take is they need to fix cheating in rated PvP before they demand we do it. Is that just crazy BElf thinking?
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Frostchi
05/25/2016 02:47 PMPosted by Shoegäzer
...

Yep and they have added TWO ADDITIONAL have/have not systems as well: artifact progression and PvP honor talents.

All this will accomplish will be making it harder for new players to compete, and harder for established players to play their alts.

Me personally, I have 3 different rogues that I play right now. I have my main rogue, I have a 2nd rogue so that I can play with friends without tanking rating on my main rogue, and I have a 3rd rogue so that I can play with friends on the horde faction.

In Legion, if I have to keep my rating high on my main rogue to get the best gear, then it will be even more important for me to have an alt rogue when I want to play with less experienced friends. And it will be even more of a pain to do so because I will have to grind artifact power and pvp talents on each alt that I intend to play.

That's not even counting my other alts like druid, hunter, etc.


ITT: People don't want to work anything and feel entitled to have everything handed to them the second they ding 110.


Why don't you get within 500 rating of me before you accuse me of not wanting to work for anything.
05/25/2016 02:45 PMPosted by Giscô
Im pretty sure stuff like Soul Cap and tier bonuses are already disabled in arenas, otherwise sub rogues would be 2 shotting people every shadow dance.
05/25/2016 02:45 PMPosted by Frostchi
Gem slots probably won't matter. I believe that in Rated PVP you will have preset stats, they will be merely adjusted on a sliding % scale based on your item level.


I was mostly referring to outside of arena, like where a PvE and PvP player may face down and encounter eachother (world pvp). So In a World PvP situation, the PvE player will have the advantage due to the gemslots, set bonuses, and trinket procs still functioning in World PvP, similar to how you can do this with soul capacitor: https://youtu.be/LVcUTcKg9T4?t=30s
- RIP one-shoted 4 man party w/ healer and minion.
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Badadin
05/25/2016 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.


I agree they deserve to be rewarded with better gear with the caveat that it should be in their chosen focus of gameplay. This is not a new concept in WoW. We have literally done this before where PvE items became better, and effectively mandatory, for PvP. It got so much pushback. Isn't that a huge reason PvP gear was given a higher item level in PvP in previous expansions, to reward the people who focused on pvp for their efforts?

It just seems weird to me, to go sink in countless hours into a specific playstyle(in this case we are talking PvP) and when I finally get rewarded with awesome gear I find out someone else is equally as powerful as me and they have never stepped foot into a PvP setting. That seems to immediately undermine the entire concept of player progression and gear as a direct indicator of power earned from a specific activity.

It dilutes the value to me and becomes frustrating. It feels like "why did I just do all that if I'm no more powerful than someone who doesn't do any PvP?" It destroys the incentive for me to try to get better because I have another avenue to obtain similar/better gear for the same activity. The easier path to same result will always be taken.

Bottom line is: with the decrease of power discrepancy(maximum of 10% from 800-900ilvl) it should not be a huge deal by the numbers. But it just seems backwards for an activity to not reward the best gear for that specific activity.

What could help is unique quest/reputation rewards that provide the best pvp items. Remember in classic when you would grind out alterac valley to get an Unstoppable Force because it was just so good in pvp? Id like to get back to that. Where pvp has unique rewards that are the best for pvp.


You are aware of PvP talents, right?

Even if your gear is identical, if you have PvP talents and they dont because they never PvPd then you have an advantage.
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Birubiru
100 Item levels in Legion is equivelant to 10 item levels in WOD. When you factor in that most players will be around ~870 item level, there will be a typical 1-2% difference (in comparison to 10% difference between S3 Honor Gear and Conq Gear). Gear has never mattered less than it will in Legion.


Yes, exactly. And yet the devs felt this 10% difference was too much, they said it was wrong and it would change.

And now they come and put almost 100 ilvl difference in gear so in the end the math turns out the same.
This is very contradictory.

The high rated players having an small gear advantage its fine by me, seems fair.
But what was said was that the gap between casual unrated pvp gear and high rated was going to be even smaller that it is now.
Enough for the rated players to look for gear improvements to push even higher ratings, but not enough for it to be an unfair fight "gear wise" with unrated pvpers.
And thats not what we are seeing;


The difference is that hardly nobody will be in 900 item level gear. Most will be in 810-870 , so the differences will be between 3-6% in Unrated BGs. Once you are fully geared and play rated PVP, the difference will be closer to 1%.

Learn2Math people.

05/25/2016 02:51 PMPosted by Sorrøws
I was mostly referring to outside of arena, like where a PvE and PvP player may face down and encounter eachother (world pvp). So In a World PvP situation, the PvE player will have the advantage due to the gemslots, set bonuses, and trinket procs still functioning in World PvP, similar to how you can do this with soul capacitor: https://youtu.be/LVcUTcKg9T4?t=30s
- RIP one-shoted 4 man party w/ healer and minion.

Or Legendary Ring in WOD.

WPVP isn't fair.

05/25/2016 02:50 PMPosted by Shoegäzer
...

ITT: People don't want to work anything and feel entitled to have everything handed to them the second they ding 110.


Why don't you get within 500 rating of me before you accuse me of not wanting to work for anything.


Nice rival title last season bro
This is why there should be a hard cap on your ilvl in pvp combat.
05/25/2016 02:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be.


This is true. I've done both mythic raiding, and climbed somewhat on the pvp ladder but never done both during the same time frame. Mythic raiding is exhausting when doing it 9+ hours per week, and climbing the pvp ladder is exhausting too. Attempting to do both at the same time isn't really appealing to the vast majority of any player base.
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Frostchi

05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Mystgun
I got full Conquest gear from Random unrated BGs in 2 characters. Your turn.

Bet it took you forever. If you want to play 500 unrated matches to get enough conq points for the season, be my guest.


The point is that I HAD THE OPTION.
Now I don't.
And took under 1 month for each character. And the fact that it took longer made it feel like a good effort/reward ratio, instead of tanking arena rating and capping in 6 hours.
05/25/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Birubiru
...

Yes, exactly. And yet the devs felt this 10% difference was too much, they said it was wrong and it would change.

And now they come and put almost 100 ilvl difference in gear so in the end the math turns out the same.
This is very contradictory.

The high rated players having an small gear advantage its fine by me, seems fair.
But what was said was that the gap between casual unrated pvp gear and high rated was going to be even smaller that it is now.
Enough for the rated players to look for gear improvements to push even higher ratings, but not enough for it to be an unfair fight "gear wise" with unrated pvpers.
And thats not what we are seeing;


The difference is that hardly nobody will be in 900 item level gear. Most will be in 810-870 , so the differences will be between 3-6% in Unrated BGs. Once you are fully geared and play rated PVP, the difference will be closer to 1%.

Learn2Math people.

05/25/2016 02:51 PMPosted by Sorrøws
I was mostly referring to outside of arena, like where a PvE and PvP player may face down and encounter eachother (world pvp). So In a World PvP situation, the PvE player will have the advantage due to the gemslots, set bonuses, and trinket procs still functioning in World PvP, similar to how you can do this with soul capacitor: https://youtu.be/LVcUTcKg9T4?t=30s
- RIP one-shoted 4 man party w/ healer and minion.

Or Legendary Ring in WOD.

WPVP isn't fair.


Let them wallow in their self created worst case scenario misery. They seem to like it.
So top players get better gear? How can someone topple them if the gear they have isnt as good and there is no way to get it better other than beating the top guys?

Its a circle of bad! You cant get better gear because the guys you need to beat have better gear. Great planning! I cant imagine the amount of cheating and ratings selling that LEGION will have. It will be off the charts.

Now someone can get the same CP gear as the top guy and with practice can beat him but not in Legion because of the gear advantage given the rated players. SMH..
05/25/2016 02:35 PMPosted by Ohstahp
Reminder --
We’re sensitive to your concerns and we’ll keep them all in mind as we settle on ilvl values for gear.

Something worth repeating --
There’s been some concern from both PvEers and PvPers that “raiders will just do Arena to get easy gear” and “gladiators will just do Mythic raids to get easy gear.” We feel it’s important to remember how challenging both types of gameplay can be. Downing Mythic bosses and earning Gladiator rating are two of the most difficult accomplishments in World of Warcraft. We think players who have demonstrated skill at those levels deserve to be rewarded with better gear.


Welp, carries and botting/scripts are gonna skyrocket again.

#huzzah


they're already more prevalent they've ever been in world of warcraft? you have it all wrong man

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