Legion: Titanforged Items (Watcher Response)

General Discussion
Scaling item level items are going to be a lot more common come Legion (albeit very RNG-based).

06/27/2016 06:44 PMPosted by Watcher
There's a fair bit of confusion around how item level of end-game rewards works in Legion - understandable, since we haven't really gone into detail about how the system works, instead focusing on high-level goals and philosophies. Let me take a crack at changing that.

Scaling vs. Static Item Level - "Anything Can Happen"

This came up in the first Legion Q&A a couple of weeks ago, but in past expansions, the endgame item structure has always been defined by a rigid series of flat plateaus. In Warlords, Normal dungeon loot was Item Level 615. Heroic dungeon loot was 630. Normal Highmaul was 655. And so forth. Once you had Raid Finder gear or better, there was zero value to items from dungeons. In patch 6.2, Tanaan Jungle only offered Baleful items that could be empowered up to item level 695. If you were a Hellfire Citadel raider, setting out to do Tanaan dailies (to unlock flying, let's say), there was zero chance that anything could happen during that play session that might make your character stronger. And in a game underscored by progression, that's a shame.

In essence, Legion changes those flat item-level plateaus into peaks that taper up to a global max potential item level.

When you earn an item from nearly any endgame source (dungeon, raid, world quest, PvP strongbox, mission, etc.), it has a chance of upgrading its quality. When looking at information on your rewards in sources like the Dungeon Journal or World Quest display, you'll see these items with a "+" next to their item level, indicating this chance to upgrade (e.g. the Dungeon Journal for Heroic Legion dungeons showing "Item Level 825+").

While there's a bunch of math behind it all, this may be a useful way of thinking about it: When generated, these items have a chance to roll a +5 item level bonus. If that roll succeeds, the system rolls again for another +5 bonus. If that succeeds, it rolls again. This process continues until an upgrade roll fails or the global item-level ceiling is reached. That's it.

And so, in Legion, even if you're a raider, if your friend is looking for someone to queue Heroic dungeons, you have an extra motivation to volunteer aside from pure altruism. You probably won't get an upgrade. But you might. Anything could happen.

"Titanforged" - What's the Deal?

Titanforged is just a label that applies when an item successfully upgrades by +15 or more item levels. It isn't really an inherent part of the system itself, but rather something we added midway through development to make it clear when you just got exceptionally lucky.

RNG, Progression, and Prestige

A frequent concern with the Legion item system is that the very possibility of a Mythic-raid-quality item coming from a quest or dungeon boss cheapens those rewards. But there's a huge difference between a single Mythic-quality item and a full set of gear of that quality. A player who mainly queues for Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder may end up with a couple of great raid-quality pieces, but that's a far cry from what someone who actually does high-end raiding will look like. Ditto for someone who casually queues for BGs compared to a top-rated arena player. After all, it requires far fewer lucky breaks for a Mythic Nightmare raid drop to make it to Item Level 895 than it would for a Heroic dungeon blue, by a huge margin. Your overall gear will still reflect the type and difficulty of content that you do, but a broader range of activities can be rewarding, and a broader range of players can have moments of surprise and excitement along the way.

Another concern raised in this thread relates to the impact of randomness on competitive progression. First off, the explanation above references a "global item-level ceiling" - that's simply a cap on how far any item can upgrade, and it's a value that will be set in relation to the highest available base item levels from the most difficult available content. Once Mythic+ dungeons and the Nightmare Raid are accessible, that value will be 895 (and that's the value to which the cap is currently set in beta). But for the first couple of weeks after launch, we're planning on having a lower cap in the 850s, since there is nothing available above that base item level. In the future, as new content is introduced, the ceiling will rise accordingly. Even the very luckiest person in the world won't be walking into raids and outgearing them on day one.

Finally, we're dealing with upgrade chances on individual item slots out of 16, belonging to individual characters out of 10-30 in a raid group. A single item won't make or break your raid's success. The law of averages suggests that raid groups that complete roughly the same amount of content will end up with roughly the same item level. We feel that the system will be a significant improvement to the individual gearing experience without harming guild competition.
It will be okay
06/28/2016 06:17 AMPosted by Euro
It will be okay


I'm actually excited for it. Some additional ways to get higher item level gear rather than the set item levels is a plus.
So does the +5 happen by manually altering it or does it happen at the time of looting to your inventory?
06/28/2016 06:30 AMPosted by Adnapatonmai
So does the +5 happen by manually altering it or does it happen at the time of looting to your inventory?


Time of looting. None of the info he gave was new though he is trying really hard to down play how higher ilv effects progression.

Like really damn hard...
At least I have crafted... and it can't go negative ilvl.

my RNG sucks!
I hate it. I want to progress from one source of gear to the next, not jumping back to gear I passed 10ilvl ago because it can randomly be better than what I'm working on now. They have a bunch of different difficulties to keep conent relevant, there is no reason to have us going to lower difficulties for upgrades.

Socket, avoidance, leech, speed. These were fine "I got lucky" bonuses. 15 levels is beyond ridiculous. Too much RNG.
Sounds pretty cool actually.
I love this new system. I'm casual , and to get a few really good pieces from my usual questing and bgs sounds amazing. Actual raiders will have a full set of great gear , so they shouldn't be crying about this. Blizzard is trying to throw a bone to all types of players so stop hating on the casuals . Thanks blizz loving all these new additions
I'm a math guy which poses the question in my mind: Whats the 'chance' of it dropping +5 to start with? And does the chance start scaling/changing the higher you get?
10/09/2016 01:35 AMPosted by Chaosbound
Actual raiders will have a full set of great gear , so they shouldn't be crying about this.


Actually, the stuff that drops from raids is garbage. If you want good gear, you have to chain-run Mythic+.

10/22/2016 09:33 PMPosted by Zavor
I'm a math guy which poses the question in my mind: Whats the 'chance' of it dropping +5 to start with? And does the chance start scaling/changing the higher you get?

Celestalon said during beta that they will not release that information. But it looks to be somewhere between 25 and 50%.
Quit necroing old posts....
06/28/2016 08:17 AMPosted by Gisço
I hate it. I want to progress from one source of gear to the next, not jumping back to gear I passed 10ilvl ago because it can randomly be better than what I'm working on now. They have a bunch of different difficulties to keep conent relevant, there is no reason to have us going to lower difficulties for upgrades.

Socket, avoidance, leech, speed. These were fine "I got lucky" bonuses. 15 levels is beyond ridiculous. Too much RNG.


Wonder if you'd rather not have those three Titanforged pieces since you wrote that comment.
I just got an 895 Titanforged pair of legs from a WQ. They showed up as ilvl 845 for me on my minimap, so they literally upgraded 10x.... that's nuts. I'd love to know the math behind this system, and how lucky I literally had to get to get these legs to upgrade 50 ilvls... Wish it was a winning lottery ticket, but hey, I'll take what I can get.
This is an old post.

Why'd you go and necro it?
I hate the whole titanforged concept. I really liked getting an item in a slot i wouldn't have to replace during that tier.. BiS doesn't even exist anymore.. Everything amazing is too out of reach.. I pray they remove the rng to get warforged, titanforged, socket.. and bring back BiS gear.. being 900 ilvl and getting an upgrade in raid finder emerald nightmare is a fricken joke.
People are "necroing" this post because the information in it is still relevant. For instance, I just looked into it today... and I preordered legion before its release. Also, I've never heard the term "necro" referring to an out of date post, so that just seems like people copying or something stupid. ( That wasn't a point, I just wanted to spit on them )

There is no sense in complaining about this, it's not a bad thing. It doesn't make anyone who shouldn't be rewarded get rewarded. It simply allows for much more versatility in how you go about obtaining gear for your character. If you want the strongest gear, a higher ilvl with higher stats, you can simply grind whatever high level method of progressive activites you enjoy, you will not be confined to the latest raid at the highest difficulty. It also allows you to succeed (in gearing) at what you are best and most comfortable in doing.

Also, BiS still exists. Although it is much more dependent on ilvl than it used to be, and the ability to obtain high ilvl gear has opened up a bit, there are still stats on specific pieces of gear that will be more relevant to your character. So you're still going to be hunting down BiS gear, if you want to be, it's just going to be specific attribute combinations on specific pieces, rather than running the latest and greatest.

I also think it makes it a bit more challenging personally, in its own way. Now you may have to choose to use a piece that is 5 ilvls lower than one that has less preferable stats. In turn, you will have to know your character and play to the gear style given your proficiencies in certain stats, rather than just being awesome because your guild ran you through the latest raid at heroic or mythic difficult for a couple weeks and got you all the best gear.

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