Master Loot & Guild Master Loot

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1 2 3 26 Next
UPDATE: This Thread is Full and Locked, Here is a continuation: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747695219

I saw in the prepatch yesterday that the option to choose Master Loot has been removed and replaced with "Guild Master Loot". I assume this change was to eliminate a lot of the ninja'ing that happened in pugs and such by making it so bugs cant choose Master Loot .... I am ok with this.

However, from what I can tell, Guild Master Loot requires you to have 100% guild members in your group, and that really bothers me. While the vast majority of our raid group is guild members, we have some people whom we consider to be a part of our guild, but cant afford to realm transfer (or simply dont want to transfer from their server). They raid with us every week and are considered a part of our core raid group, but they are not in our guild therefore we cant choose Master Loot.

There are a few reasons why i think this is a bad move, but i would say this is the biggest one ....

Blizzard has made a lot of changes that make it possible and encouraged to invite your Real ID friends from other servers to your raid groups .... But without Master Loot, it makes the raid leader have to decide between Should I invite my friend from another server and be forced to use Personal Loot or Group Loot? Or should I tell him he cant raid with us because we need to be able to assign loot in our guild run? I can almost guarantee you that there will be people that refuse to let friends into their raids simply because they dont want to be forced to use Personal Loot or Group Loot.

Personally for us, we have 4-5 people in our raid groups that are RealID friends and RL Friends of some of our guild members and they raid with us every week, so because of this change we are going to either have to tell them they cant raid with us or take away our ability to decide how we distribute loot as a guild .....

So my suggestion, instead of only allowing Master Loot for 100% Guild Groups, can you lower that a little so if its like 75% guild members then you can use Master Loot? Or let RealID friends count as Guild Members? That way we can just add our friends to RealID and be able to use Master Loot?

I think the Allowing RealID Friends to be counted as Guild Members would be the best solution because then Blizzard can keep the 100% Guild Members/RealID Friends requirement which will still put an end to ninja looting in pugs and stop those Split Runs that everyone hates.

Please consider this though! I would appreciate any feedback as well.

UPDATE: I was wrong about the 100%, apparently it is still the classic "Guild Group" Requirement of 80%.
07/20/2016 07:58 AMPosted by Sharrq
I saw in the prepatch yesterday that the option to choose Master Loot has been removed and replaced with "Guild Master Loot". I assume this change was to eliminate a lot of the ninja'ing that happened in pugs and such by making it so bugs cant choose Master Loot .... I am ok with this.


What people need to be is honest with themselves - the supposed ninja looting was not nearly as rampant as people seem to think. Additionally, people always had the option to NOT JOIN ML raids and to JOIN OR FORM THEIR OWN PL raids.

Of course it was easier to !@#$% and moan and act like an incompetent child instead of accepting some personal responsibility and forming their own group. God forbid people were expected to take some initiative and do something for themselves instead of expecting an entire system, that while potentially flawed, was not nearly the insufferable ^-*!-show that people made it out to be.
I agree that ninja looting was not nearly as much of a problem as some may think and its easy enough to not join a ML Group, but I think this also was to stop the Top Tier Mythic Raid Groups from doing Split Runs to gear up their people super quick. Ultimately I am ok with getting rid of Master Looter in pugs (I would prefer it stayed, but ill be ok now that it is removed).

But the Guild Master Loot system is flawed in my opinion because it adds an extra reason to not invite my friends to a guild run ..... or we have a 100% guild group but we need to pug one healer or one tank, so now we cant use Master Loot.

Something needs to be relaxed somewhere cause this is a bit much imo.
07/20/2016 08:07 AMPosted by Sharrq
I agree that ninja looting was not nearly as much of a problem as some may think and its easy enough to not join a ML Group, but I think this also was to stop the Top Tier Mythic Raid Groups from doing Split Runs to gear up their people super quick. Ultimately I am ok with getting rid of Master Looter in pugs (I would prefer it stayed, but ill be ok now that it is removed).

But the Guild Master Loot system is flawed in my opinion because it adds an extra reason to not invite my friends to a guild run ..... or we have a 100% guild group but we need to pug one healer or one tank, so now we cant use Master Loot.

Something needs to be relaxed somewhere cause this is a bit much imo.


I completely agree that the guild master loot system is currently a terrible design. Requiring 100% in guild is beyond silly. You are completely right in how it will negatively impact bringing friends from other guilds to a run if you are short and need an extra body or two.

This also won't necessarily stop guilds from doing split runs. They'll just require that everyone have their alts in guild or they won't be allowed to participate so that they can ensure the ridiculous requirement of the guild master loot system.
07/20/2016 07:58 AMPosted by Sharrq
However, from what I can tell, Guild Master Loot requires you to have 100% guild members in your group, and that really bothers me. While the vast majority of our raid group is guild members, we have some people whom we consider to be a part of our guild, but cant afford to realm transfer (or simply dont want to transfer from their server). They raid with us every week and are considered a part of our core raid group, but they are not in our guild therefore we cant choose Master Loot.


We're in the same boat. We have a handful of people that for multiple reasons don't want to server transfer or leave their current guilds.

While we were contemplating going personal loot (we're pretty casual) having it be forced on us is a bit annoying. Especially since we couldn't do stuff like funnel gear to say me after I switched quite a ways into HFC from my warlock so we'd have another healer.

07/20/2016 07:58 AMPosted by Sharrq
So my suggestion, instead of only allowing Master Loot for 100% Guild Groups, can you lower that a little so if its like 75% guild members then you can use Master Loot? Or let RealID friends count as Guild Members? That way we can just add our friends to RealID and be able to use Master Loot?


Any of these sound reasonably simple to implement although you never know what's going on in the black box. Personally I'd be okay with any of them.

While I'm sure some will abuse this the difficulty to do so should be high enough to filter out most of it, especially a 75% or thereabouts guild member requirement.
Agreed, and I know someone is going to say Personal Loot is better now, and you can pass loot around if it isnt an upgrade ... but there are a few pitfalls to Personal Loot that make it less than desirable for a guild group.

1. Something drops for me that I dont need because the stats arent desirable for me, but the iLvl is lets say 5 iLvl higher than what I have ... so I cant pass it to the guildie who could actually use it.

2. It is going to be really annoying to be passing loot around after every boss fight.

3. It takes away the ability for the guild's raid leader to distribute loot based on what is most important to the guild.

And while Group loot sort of limits the above issues with Personal Loot, the benefits of Master Looter over Group Loot in guild groups is that as the Raid Leader:

1. I can choose to reward the guildie that contributes a lot to the guild and shows up every week vs the guildie who doesnt contribute much and only shows up once a week.

2. I can funnel loot to the guildie that really needs the upgrades (the guy we are trying to gear up to be our tank/healer or etc).

3. I can choose to loot the tier token to the guy who would be completing his 4pc bonus vs the guy that would be getting 3pc.

While this is perfectly fine for raid groups composed of 100% guildies ... the ones that are 1 heal or tank short, or just need to pug 1-2 dps, or invite friends from other servers are going to lose their ability to choose how loot gets distributed without forcing people to trade loot (if they can even trade it cause of the iLvl requirement).
I really don't understand why guild group achievement was (is?) 3/5 in a dungeon, and was 3/4's (or was it 80%?) in a raid previously and why that wouldn't be continued through to this system.
Using Master Loot in 7.0 requires that you have a "guild group," which is the same definition that is used for things like Guild Achievements or Guild Challenges: 80% or more of the group must belong to the guild. You can definitely bring a couple (or several, for larger raids) friends along from other servers and the like.

Is the appeal of Master Loot the convenience of only one person needing to check the corpse and then assign everything out? I'm a little perplexed that the reaction has been more "welp, guess we can't bring our friends anymore..." rather than "welp, guess we can't use Master Loot as much now...." I'd imagine there isn't much of a real concern about ninja-looting in a group of guildmembers and friends that raid together on a regular basis, or is there?

I know Personal Loot has been viewed with some skepticism by guild groups over the years. Originally it was due to the drop variance, where you could potentially get 0 or 1 items from a large-raid kill, which felt terrible. We fixed that in Warlords. But even then, being unable to trade loot around to gear up a friend, or pass an item to someone who needs it more, held back its appeal. In Legion, we've made more major improvements to Personal Loot, most importantly including the ability to trade any item that isn't a strict Item Level upgrade to other people who participated in the kill. So if you have (or have ever gotten, post-7.0, even if you no longer have it) an ilvl 720 trinket, any trinket drop you see that's 720 or lower can be traded to others in your raid group. And you still get the benefits of "smart" loot (e.g. never seeing a shield drop if you don't have a shield-user in your raid). Maybe it still isn't the right fit for your group, but I'd encourage people raiding Hellfire this week to give it a try - we've love to hear feedback on how it feels, and what could still be improved. Thanks!
...
http://imgur.com/UxafgG8
07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
I'm a little perplexed that the reaction has been more "welp, guess we can't bring our friends anymore..." rather than "welp, guess we can't use Master Loot as much now...."


Raid groups that are comprised of members from large co-guilds, or have cross realm friends as members, are basically being told they can use Personal Loot whether they like it or not.

It seems to me like the problem is that ML creates a situation where people can ninja loot from others. Why not limit this restriction only to groups made with the Group Finder? Seems like that is where this is needed, and not in groups that are formed by friends.

07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
I know Personal Loot has been viewed with some skepticism by guild groups over the years.


Part of my problem is the inherent RNG with Personal Loot. With ML, we kill a boss, we get a list of items, we can distribute them however we want. With PL, you kill a boss, people get a bunch of random items, maybe they can trade them, maybe they need them or maybe they don't. Even if you make PL drop exactly the same number of items every time, or even more items than other methods, removing the ability for a group to treat loot as a reward and give it to who they choose seems unfair, when really this change is meant to deter loot ninjas.

I would imagine people like the deterministic feeling of "We kill this boss, we get two tier pieces" over "We kill this boss, maybe we'll get 5 tier pieces, or maybe 0."
Hmm, maybe that was just a bad assumption on my part. We did a raid last night and i noticed that Master Loot was greyed out before we pugged anyone, we must have had more RealID friends in the group than I thought. If it still allows for a few non guildie members in the raid then that is probably fine with me. But it would be really nice if RealID Friends didnt count against you.

And I wasnt necessarily saying that we were going to stop inviting friends solely so that we could use Master Looter, perhaps bad wording on my part. But I did find it annoying that if we did invite friends, then we lose an option for looting items.

Also I wasnt aware that Personal Loot counts items that you have ever looted as opposed to the one you have equipped.

We will try it again and see if we can enable ML in a 80% guild group.

As for the appeal of Master Looter, while it is convenient to only have one person loot the corpse and hand out loot, it is more about being able to pick who gets what based on a number of circumstances like giving the upgrade to the guy that contributes to the guild more and shows up to every raid vs the guy that shows up once a week. or giving the tier token to the guy who would be completing his 4pc bonus as opposed to the guy that would only be getting their 3rd piece or already had their 4pc.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond, this may not be as bad as I had initially thought, but I still do believe that if you form a group of guildies and people from Friends lists, then you should be able to use Master Loot. I can understand it if you invite a bunch of pugs from the Group Finder, but in a Guild/Friends/Family run ... you should really be able to choose how your loot gets distributed.
You can spin it any way you want, one of the bigger effects of this change is to not only kill any group selling mounts from raids, but also kill any group that would be out together to farm a mount from an old raid boss.

I really don't u derstand why you think providing players with less choices is somehow good for this game or community. Just another instance of throwing the baby out with thr bath water.
07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
In Legion, we've made more major improvements to Personal Loot, most importantly including the ability to trade any item that isn't a strict Item Level upgrade to other people who participated in the kill. So if you have (or have ever gotten, post-7.0, even if you no longer have it) an ilvl 720 trinket, any trinket drop you see that's 720 or lower can be traded to others in your raid group.


The issue with this change, even though it is an improvement over previous iterations, is that not all items are an upgrade purely based on item level. Stat itemization could prove an item being sub-par for you even if the ilevel is higher. From the get-go the system should have allowed players to trade the items they won with no restrictions other than the usual soulbound/server related ones.
07/20/2016 10:34 AMPosted by Baelii
07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
In Legion, we've made more major improvements to Personal Loot, most importantly including the ability to trade any item that isn't a strict Item Level upgrade to other people who participated in the kill. So if you have (or have ever gotten, post-7.0, even if you no longer have it) an ilvl 720 trinket, any trinket drop you see that's 720 or lower can be traded to others in your raid group.


The issue with this change, even though it is an improvement over previous iterations, is that not all items are an upgrade purely based on item level. Stat itemization could prove an item being sub-par for you even if the ilevel is higher. From the get-go the system should have allowed players to trade the items they won with no restrictions other than the usual soulbound/server related ones.


Ssh, you're obviously playing the game in an unintended way.


Why not limit this restriction only to groups made with the Group Finder? Seems like that is where this is needed, and not in groups that are formed by friends.


Then the way to get around that is to either spam trade looking for members or make a waitlist on the raid finder, get someone's battle tag, and add them to the main group that way, which would bypass any flag a group would have on them that they got people via raidfinder.
07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
we've love to hear feedback on how it feels, and what could still be improved. Thanks!


It feels bad.

Bring back master looter.
07/20/2016 10:38 AMPosted by Zynadin
07/20/2016 10:34 AMPosted by Baelii
...

The issue with this change, even though it is an improvement over previous iterations, is that not all items are an upgrade purely based on item level. Stat itemization could prove an item being sub-par for you even if the ilevel is higher. From the get-go the system should have allowed players to trade the items they won with no restrictions other than the usual soulbound/server related ones.


Ssh, you're obviously playing the game in an unintended way.


Is that a sarcastic way of saying "you're right" ?
07/20/2016 10:04 AMPosted by Watcher
Is the appeal of Master Loot the convenience of only one person needing to check the corpse and then assign everything out? I'm a little perplexed that the reaction has been more "welp, guess we can't bring our friends anymore..." rather than "welp, guess we can't use Master Loot as much now...." I'd imagine there isn't much of a real concern about ninja-looting in a group of guildmembers and friends that raid together on a regular basis, or is there?

I know Personal Loot has been viewed with some skepticism by guild groups over the years. Originally it was due to the drop variance, where you could potentially get 0 or 1 items from a large-raid kill, which felt terrible. We fixed that in Warlords. But even then, being unable to trade loot around to gear up a friend, or pass an item to someone who needs it more, held back its appeal. In Legion, we've made more major improvements to Personal Loot, most importantly including the ability to trade any item that isn't a strict Item Level upgrade to other people who participated in the kill. So if you have (or have ever gotten, post-7.0, even if you no longer have it) an ilvl 720 trinket, any trinket drop you see that's 720 or lower can be traded to others in your raid group. And you still get the benefits of "smart" loot (e.g. never seeing a shield drop if you don't have a shield-user in your raid). Maybe it still isn't the right fit for your group, but I'd encourage people raiding Hellfire this week to give it a try - we've love to hear feedback on how it feels, and what could still be improved. Thanks!

Many of us play in cross realm groups with our friends. I am in a 13/13 mythic pug raid with other similarly skilled players where we all play on our alts. By restricting master loot to guild groups, you take away the option for groups like this to act like adults and make their own choices.

Even if we can facilitate things with personal loot, this change just makes our raids take longer and restrict our ability to play the game the way that we want.

If people are so scared of ninjas, they should simply just not join groups that use master loot. It's that simple. Don't ruin the ability of responsible players to make responsible decisions with their friends.
Hi Watcher.

My response to your response is that I dont feel you (the folks at blizz) quite understood the reasoning behind groups using ML. The simplicity of having one person loot as you mentioned is one, working with loot systems is another. Suicide Kings, DKP, EPGP all rely on having a ML.

The move to GML also doesnt mesh well with the move to allow more and more cross realm raiding. By definition the cross realm folks wont be in our guild. Xrealm opened up some nice possibilities for filling a raid, but now has to be balanced with not bringing too many so we can keep using our prefered looting system.

And yes, to the implied question you posed, keeping our loot system how we want it is more important that bringing in non-guildies. Im certain that isnt true for all guilds, but for most of the raiding guilds ive known, especialy the more hardcore they are, its true. Perhaps thats just my personal experience. Guild loot systems are often implemented for more than just fast distribution of loot. Keeping loot fair in a large guild, or rotating pool of raiders is easier with a loot system like the ones i mentioned above. The solution in my guild is going to be requireing folks to join the guild for the raid, and less looking off server to fill spots. Sad, but now neccessary.

Lastly, I understand that PL is something you guys have put alot of time and effort into, and I appreciate it. But the holes left in it are big enough to make it not worth running for alot of guilds. Previously mentioned circumstances, like focused gearing of an alt, increased Ilvl not being the same thing as an upgrade, and guilds not being able to direct gear to go where the guild values it most all plague the system right now.
In a game with multiple stats, and different classes valuing those stats differently, why would we want a system that locks loot to a toon just because its a higher ilvl? Unless you can promise a higher ilvl piece will be an upgrade no matter the stats?
07/20/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Baelii
07/20/2016 10:38 AMPosted by Zynadin
...

Ssh, you're obviously playing the game in an unintended way.


Is that a sarcastic way of saying "you're right" ?


COMRADE WATCHER HAS SAID THAT PERSONAL LOOT IS BEST LOOT SYSTEM

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum